Author Topic: BBD vs. David Lee  (Read 7890 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2009, 01:43:38 AM »

Offline ChainSmokingLikeDino

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1422
  • Tommy Points: 96
This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.



that seems a little off the mark. lee is a far better rebounder than bbd. davis has proven himself to be a fairly substandard rebounder, and yes, lee's numbers are slightly inflated in that he played for a d'antoni team but still he does possess that base instinct and sensibility of an outstanding rebounder, knowing where to position himself for the best chance to grab a board when the shot goes up.

i also think you dramatically over praise what baby's upside is. antoine walker? really? their games are so radically different that i don't even understand that comparison.

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2009, 02:11:26 AM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.



that seems a little off the mark. lee is a far better rebounder than bbd. davis has proven himself to be a fairly substandard rebounder, and yes, lee's numbers are slightly inflated in that he played for a d'antoni team but still he does possess that base instinct and sensibility of an outstanding rebounder, knowing where to position himself for the best chance to grab a board when the shot goes up.

i also think you dramatically over praise what baby's upside is. antoine walker? really? their games are so radically different that i don't even understand that comparison.
David Lee being the current better player is common sense.  Saying Davis has a higher ceiling is kind of ridiculous.  There's a possibility he could slim down, grab more rebounds, get more blocks, improve his defense game, and start shooting 3s like Antoine, but a very small one.  My guess is Davis turns out to be good 3rd big man on a good team, but David is already an excellent starter on an okay team and can only go up.  If he finds a spot on a good team, he could end up being a better player than Davis could ever team of.  Like say Cleveland gets rid of Varejao for him.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2009, 02:14:23 AM »

Offline byennie

  • Webmaster
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2615
  • Tommy Points: 3047
This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.

I'm not sure you are familiar with Mr. Lee's resume. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes?? I like Gomes and all, but Lee is already better by a long shot. Say what you will about his defense and the system he played in, but the dude put up 16 and 12 last season and shoots an outstanding percentage. It's not like Gomes is making the all-defensive team.

Lee literally grabs TWICE as many rebounds as BBD or Gomes, and shoots about 10% better from the field (with more attempts).

I'm not saying David Lee is Wilt Chamberlain here, but you can't really believe BBD is better because he can body up centers in a pinch?

Danny would do backflips if he could swap BBD for David Lee...

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2009, 10:01:25 AM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 45920
  • Tommy Points: 3340
This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.

I'm not sure you are familiar with Mr. Lee's resume. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes?? I like Gomes and all, but Lee is already better by a long shot. Say what you will about his defense and the system he played in, but the dude put up 16 and 12 last season and shoots an outstanding percentage. It's not like Gomes is making the all-defensive team.

Lee literally grabs TWICE as many rebounds as BBD or Gomes, and shoots about 10% better from the field (with more attempts).

I'm not saying David Lee is Wilt Chamberlain here, but you can't really believe BBD is better because he can body up centers in a pinch?

Danny would do backflips if he could swap BBD for David Lee...

I stand corrected. I do still feel that David Lee is over rated and is a role player at best. Not worth 10 million a year.

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2009, 11:31:14 AM »

Offline Spilling Green Dye

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Tommy Points: 115
This thread could be called "KG vs Zach Randolph" in that the two players shouldn't be compared as if they are anywhere near equal. 

I do agree that Lee isn't worth 10mil / year.... more like 7 to 8 mil.  There's a reason he's getting his name thrown around for that much per year and BBD hasn't gotten any good offers.  It's not like we know something great about BBD that all other GMs don't.

Is it even possible for the Celtics to get David Lee in lieu of BBD?  I'm not sure he'd even be worth the price tag though as his minutes would be somewhat limited. 


Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2009, 06:05:11 PM »

Offline dmopower

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 557
  • Tommy Points: 46
I realy like BBD, I think his career could be solid, IF he addresses his weitht and conditioning issues.
Yet he is no where near the player David lee is.
Come on guys, DLee rebounds, shoots better, hits his freethrows.
blind optimist or GENIUS

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2009, 06:10:53 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 42585
  • Tommy Points: 2756
  • You ain't the boss of the freakin' bedclothes.
Different skill sets, but Lee rebounds in a totally different class than BBD. The good class, as opposed to the bad one.

That's why if we keep the large infant and not Powe, our rebounding is gonna stink. Sheed isn't a very good rebounder either.

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2009, 06:33:04 PM »

Offline BrickJames

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1406
  • Tommy Points: 185
  • Master Mason
david lee is miles better than glen davis
God bless and good night!


Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2009, 06:44:48 PM »

Offline Bankshot

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7540
  • Tommy Points: 632
I like BBD and hope we sign him.  But if we can get David Lee we should do it.  However, I'm worried about Lee leaving after one year to get big money.  We'll have lost Big Baby for a one year rental of Lee.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2009, 06:59:06 PM »

Offline Jon

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6500
  • Tommy Points: 385
I like BBD and hope we sign him.  But if we can get David Lee we should do it.  However, I'm worried about Lee leaving after one year to get big money.  We'll have lost Big Baby for a one year rental of Lee.

However, it wouldn't be horrible to try some sort of sign and trade with Baby and then to resign Leon Powe.  Powe is arguably just as good as Baby, and with Lee and Wallace on the bench, we wouldn't really need Powe back at 100% until the 2010-2011 season. 

With every passing day I'm seeing less and less that's appealing about Baby in Green next year.  I think the ideal thing may be that sign and trade.  I just don't see another appealing scenario.  I think if he signs a big long money deal he won't live up to and will be a burden on the team.  If he comes back for a 1 year deal, I see the combo of KG/Perk/Wallace keeping his minutes at 10 mpg or less, thus dramatically diminishing his numbers, and thus his trade value.  And if he comes back even at a reasonable long term contract, will it really be worth it for a player who is only gonna get 10-15 mpg and probably less in the playoffs?  Couldn't Powe do the same?  And I know that he won't be back until midway or later, but does that really matter?  Couldn't Scal or a FA fill the spare 10-15 mpg adequately enough for the team to still win 65+ games? 

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2009, 07:57:31 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
Different skill sets, but Lee rebounds in a totally different class than BBD. The good class, as opposed to the bad one.

That's why if we keep the large infant and not Powe, our rebounding is gonna stink. Sheed isn't a very good rebounder either.
Sheed is a pretty good rebounder, he's actually a very good defensive rebounder. But he doesn't get offensive boards because he hangs out at the 3 point line. Similar to KG actually.

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2009, 08:00:51 PM »

Offline Bankshot

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7540
  • Tommy Points: 632
I like BBD and hope we sign him.  But if we can get David Lee we should do it.  However, I'm worried about Lee leaving after one year to get big money.  We'll have lost Big Baby for a one year rental of Lee.

However, it wouldn't be horrible to try some sort of sign and trade with Baby and then to resign Leon Powe.  Powe is arguably just as good as Baby, and with Lee and Wallace on the bench, we wouldn't really need Powe back at 100% until the 2010-2011 season. 

With every passing day I'm seeing less and less that's appealing about Baby in Green next year.  I think the ideal thing may be that sign and trade.  I just don't see another appealing scenario.  I think if he signs a big long money deal he won't live up to and will be a burden on the team.  If he comes back for a 1 year deal, I see the combo of KG/Perk/Wallace keeping his minutes at 10 mpg or less, thus dramatically diminishing his numbers, and thus his trade value.  And if he comes back even at a reasonable long term contract, will it really be worth it for a player who is only gonna get 10-15 mpg and probably less in the playoffs?  Couldn't Powe do the same?  And I know that he won't be back until midway or later, but does that really matter?  Couldn't Scal or a FA fill the spare 10-15 mpg adequately enough for the team to still win 65+ games? 

A hobbling Powe coming off a 3rd knee surgery is nowhere near as good as BBD.  Powe is not going to be signed unless he's healthy and IF he's even effective.
"If somebody would have told you when he was playing with the Knicks that Nate Robinson was going to change a big time game and he was going to do it mostly because of his defense, somebody would have got slapped."  Mark Jackson

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2009, 08:57:46 PM »

Offline Jon

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6500
  • Tommy Points: 385
I like BBD and hope we sign him.  But if we can get David Lee we should do it.  However, I'm worried about Lee leaving after one year to get big money.  We'll have lost Big Baby for a one year rental of Lee.

However, it wouldn't be horrible to try some sort of sign and trade with Baby and then to resign Leon Powe.  Powe is arguably just as good as Baby, and with Lee and Wallace on the bench, we wouldn't really need Powe back at 100% until the 2010-2011 season. 

With every passing day I'm seeing less and less that's appealing about Baby in Green next year.  I think the ideal thing may be that sign and trade.  I just don't see another appealing scenario.  I think if he signs a big long money deal he won't live up to and will be a burden on the team.  If he comes back for a 1 year deal, I see the combo of KG/Perk/Wallace keeping his minutes at 10 mpg or less, thus dramatically diminishing his numbers, and thus his trade value.  And if he comes back even at a reasonable long term contract, will it really be worth it for a player who is only gonna get 10-15 mpg and probably less in the playoffs?  Couldn't Powe do the same?  And I know that he won't be back until midway or later, but does that really matter?  Couldn't Scal or a FA fill the spare 10-15 mpg adequately enough for the team to still win 65+ games? 

A hobbling Powe coming off a 3rd knee surgery is nowhere near as good as BBD.  Powe is not going to be signed unless he's healthy and IF he's even effective.

I wouldn't be so sure.  You'd probably say the same thing if he was coming off his second knee surgery.  And he proved people wrong. 

But I think Powe's beside the point.  I just think that all Baby really offers to this team in games that matter is an insurance policy.  In a close game, KG, Perk, and Wallace are all going to play north of 30 mpg, leaving virtually zero minutes for BBD.  If he averages 15 mpg next year, it'll only be because the C's have blown out so many teams that KG, Perk, and Wallace came out early.  And if it's a blow out, who cares who is out there? 

Would Baby be nice if someone goes down?  Sure.  But only in certain circumstances.  If KG goes down for the season again, Baby isn't going to matter.  If he goes down for 10 games, this team is good enough that it can win some regular season games with pretty much anyone on the bench (see last season). 

Would he be useful if Perk or Wallace went down?  Sure.  But again, only if it was in the playoffs or if it was long term.  If it's a 10 game thing, they can get by with anybody. 

So that begs the question, is it worth paying 4-5 million, or even as low as 3 million, for a guy who is really only going to be of use if someone gets hurt?  Or would it be more useful to try to trade him for something more valuable like a backup PG or a backup 2/3 that's even better than Daniels?  I tend to think the latter. 

Because I also don't see him holding value here.  If he's going to play sparse minutes, his value is going to plummet, and the C's won't be able to trade him.  And it's pretty much useless to stash him for the future: he'll never be a starter on a contender.  So why stash a guy who at best might be the first big off the bench?  That role can be filled down the road after the Big Three are gone. 

So I'll grant you that Powe may not be the answer, but I do think the C's might be better off dealing Baby for a backup 1, 2, or 3, then signing someone like Joe Smith at the LLE.  He'd give good insurance and could fill in those spare 10 mpg about as effectively as Baby. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 09:03:34 PM by Jon »

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2009, 10:04:46 PM »

Offline gar

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2629
  • Tommy Points: 247
  • Strength from Within
I like BBD and hope we sign him.  But if we can get David Lee we should do it.  However, I'm worried about Lee leaving after one year to get big money.  We'll have lost Big Baby for a one year rental of Lee.

I quess that is kind of the point. BBD is very replaceable; but rarely is a player like Lee available at such a discount. The interesting thing is even if he gets a one year contract he could still be available at a reasonable price because of all the players on the market next year .

Re: BBD vs. David Lee
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2009, 02:40:46 PM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 45920
  • Tommy Points: 3340
This is interesting, but what has David Lee ever done on a good team and who can he guard? Baby is very unique that he can guard very big guys  down low and outside.  And I think Baby's ceiling is higher than lee's. David Lee's ceiling is Ryan Gomes ( Not a bad player....) But Baby can be something of a unique hybrid. Power with finesse. He needs more ups and even more range on that jump shot. David lee is like a smaller jeff foster( not a bad thing) but you know what you are going to get. Baby? I might do a trade though if the numbers were good.

My biggest worry about Baby is once he gets a big contract that he'll just blowup to a fatter slower version of A Walker. Lee looks like he'll turn into a smaller  Jeff Foster. ( A good piece on a good team but not worth much to anyone else. Not 10 million a year. Both Baby and Lee are worth the same contract Scal got when he got here and that's good money.

I'm not sure you are familiar with Mr. Lee's resume. His ceiling is Ryan Gomes?? I like Gomes and all, but Lee is already better by a long shot. Say what you will about his defense and the system he played in, but the dude put up 16 and 12 last season and shoots an outstanding percentage. It's not like Gomes is making the all-defensive team.

Lee literally grabs TWICE as many rebounds as BBD or Gomes, and shoots about 10% better from the field (with more attempts).

I'm not saying David Lee is Wilt Chamberlain here, but you can't really believe BBD is better because he can body up centers in a pinch?

Danny would do backflips if he could swap BBD for David Lee...

I stand corrected. I do still feel that David Lee is over rated and is a role player at best. Not worth 10 million a year.

Well I guess this what I was trying to say about David Lee: Charley Rosen
"Let's start with Lee: He always hustles and relentlessly attacks both boards. But he can't shoot. His offense consists of elementary drop-steps. And he can't defend.

Also, the Knicks' barely controlled chaos generates more scoring opportunities for Lee than he'd find on a more disciplined ball club. For him to be a starter with a legitimate team, Lee would need to play beside a shot-blocking big man who would also need to be double-teamed whenever he received the ball in the pivot.

In other words, Lee is strictly a very limited role player. A 20-minute-a-game player off the bench for an excellent team. As such, he's not nearly worth the humongous contract that he has been seeking."