Author Topic: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Voting Analysis : Team of the Future  (Read 675112 times)

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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2130 on: August 19, 2009, 01:39:59 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I'm interested in hearing from those who voted Buffalo. I am curious to know any reasoning, if possible. TPs for reasons.

I think the biggest thing that would put buffalo over the top here is if Howard really put together an average to above average NBA post game. TD has too much skill to be dunked on all day, but like Al Jefferson proved this past season against traditional low post guys he doesn't always fare well. With Howard's strength and agility, he'd be able to do some damage.

That's the problem though. Al Jefferson has a very refined and polished low post game, thanks to years with Clifford Ray and Kevin McHale. Howard has sheer athleticism and strength, with a jump hook from one side in one particular spot. He has no other moves or game. He hasn't done it yet and has shown no signs of being able to do it in such a small time frame if he hasn't already.

A year ago he didn't have the jump hook. I think he can and will improve in that area.

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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2131 on: August 19, 2009, 01:40:09 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I know there are people here that want to vote in the East.  I just know it!

I'll be voting.  I'm giving Orlando and Philly a chance to address their matchup.  Mostly, I'm concerned about how Orlando's supporting cast does.

Ditto... I want to hear why Orlando would win if LeBron didn't dominate Carmelo Anthony, because I'm not sure they would.

I'll let my former GM colleague do most of the heavy lifting here, but will say a few things about our matchup with Philly.

I don't see how Philly can win a seven game series against Orlando, given the Magics' frontcourt strength. Bynum and Okafor need to play major, major minutes for the Sixers to have a chance in this series, and I don't see how Bynum can consistently stay on the court without racking up fouls against a physical center like Gasol, or his backups. Sixers' bench seriously lacks physicality, size, and skill at the PF/C positions (Elson and Joe Smith vs. Foster and Varejao is a clear win for the Magics).

Also, what will Diddy have left in the tank after a 90-game season? Hinrich and Afflalo shouldn't have too much difficulty keeping him in check.

Throw in HCA for Orlando, and I see the Magics moving on to the next round.

You have depth in the front court yes, but those players aren't ones you go to offensively.  Who else besides LeBron is going to do any significant scoring?
Villanueva is a very good outside shooter. Lebron driving will pull Okafor in off the outside leaving Charlie V. wide open on the outside for a dish from LeBron. LeBron has never, ever played with a 4 who could shoot from the outside and 3. Okafor is not a great perimeter defender. That combo makes Villanueva a dangerous scorer in this series.

Now if Orlando has to play someone who has an inside shot blocker at center, a PF who is a good perimeter defender and has someone who can clamp down on LeBron.....say a team like Toronto with Camby, KG and Artest or Washington had in Przybilla, Scola and Wallace.....Orlando struggles and loses. But Philly has basically two centers playing on the floor with neither being a good perimeter defender that's good enough to stop Villanueva.

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2132 on: August 19, 2009, 01:42:24 PM »

Offline Hoyo de Monterrey

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I'm interested in hearing from those who voted Buffalo. I am curious to know any reasoning, if possible. TPs for reasons.

I think the biggest thing that would put buffalo over the top here is if Howard really put together an average to above average NBA post game. TD has too much skill to be dunked on all day, but like Al Jefferson proved this past season against traditional low post guys he doesn't always fare well. With Howard's strength and agility, he'd be able to do some damage.

That's the problem though. Al Jefferson has a very refined and polished low post game, thanks to years with Clifford Ray and Kevin McHale. Howard has sheer athleticism and strength, with a jump hook from one side in one particular spot. He has no other moves or game. He hasn't done it yet and has shown no signs of being able to do it in such a small time frame if he hasn't already.

A year ago he didn't have the jump hook. I think he can and will improve in that area.

Enough to pull it out though? I mean he's not going up against your average center here. I really don't think so.
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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2133 on: August 19, 2009, 01:52:36 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I'm interested in hearing from those who voted Buffalo. I am curious to know any reasoning, if possible. TPs for reasons.

I think the biggest thing that would put buffalo over the top here is if Howard really put together an average to above average NBA post game. TD has too much skill to be dunked on all day, but like Al Jefferson proved this past season against traditional low post guys he doesn't always fare well. With Howard's strength and agility, he'd be able to do some damage.

That's the problem though. Al Jefferson has a very refined and polished low post game, thanks to years with Clifford Ray and Kevin McHale. Howard has sheer athleticism and strength, with a jump hook from one side in one particular spot. He has no other moves or game. He hasn't done it yet and has shown no signs of being able to do it in such a small time frame if he hasn't already.

A year ago he didn't have the jump hook. I think he can and will improve in that area.

Enough to pull it out though? I mean he's not going up against your average center here. I really don't think so.

Well I mean I picked Seattle for a reason but its not out of the question. Where are the stats comparing Jamison to Martin? 24pts, 10 rebounds to 13 points, 6 rebounds, favoring Jamison. That's over a pretty healthy sample size of 13 games.

That's the matchup I'd worry about. You can't call Howard/Duncan a wash, because its such a pivotal matchup. Duncan will score more points, Howard will get more rebounds, but its not like Howard wont get some points and duncan won't get some rebounds.

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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2134 on: August 19, 2009, 01:56:05 PM »

Offline Hoyo de Monterrey

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I'm interested in hearing from those who voted Buffalo. I am curious to know any reasoning, if possible. TPs for reasons.

I think the biggest thing that would put buffalo over the top here is if Howard really put together an average to above average NBA post game. TD has too much skill to be dunked on all day, but like Al Jefferson proved this past season against traditional low post guys he doesn't always fare well. With Howard's strength and agility, he'd be able to do some damage.

That's the problem though. Al Jefferson has a very refined and polished low post game, thanks to years with Clifford Ray and Kevin McHale. Howard has sheer athleticism and strength, with a jump hook from one side in one particular spot. He has no other moves or game. He hasn't done it yet and has shown no signs of being able to do it in such a small time frame if he hasn't already.

A year ago he didn't have the jump hook. I think he can and will improve in that area.

Enough to pull it out though? I mean he's not going up against your average center here. I really don't think so.

Well I mean I picked Seattle for a reason but its not out of the question. Where are the stats comparing Jamison to Martin? 24pts, 10 rebounds to 13 points, 6 rebounds, favoring Jamison. That's over a pretty healthy sample size of 13 games.

That's the matchup I'd worry about. You can't call Howard/Duncan a wash, because its such a pivotal matchup. Duncan will score more points, Howard will get more rebounds, but its not like Howard wont get some points and duncan won't get some rebounds.

No I know... That's why I would be throwing Thaddeus Young at him at times just to switch up the look and playing Brewer on Thornton defensively would totally shut down Thornton. He is incredibly inefficient offensively. That's going to help with Jamison, plus defensively Jamison is a borderline liability.
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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2135 on: August 19, 2009, 01:57:14 PM »

Offline The Walker Wiggle

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Dont vote for the Big Names vote for DEFENSE AND THE BETTER TEAM

I agree, defense is important.

Quote from: Peachtree Hoops
I mean Kelly Dwyer actually references Bibby's "league-worst defense." It is not a disillusioned Hawks fan's reality. It is plain reality. Mike Bibby makes teams worse on defense. If you need good defense to win championships, the signing of Bibby seems like a status quo deal. A lets try to hold on to this second round loss team move.

Did somebody say "second round loss?"

Quote from: 82games.com
Michael Redd is in a league of his own on defense at the shooting guard position.  The difference between Redd and the next lowest-rated shooting guard is three times as large as the difference between the 2nd and 10th lowest-rated shooting guards.  And Redd has been very consistently ineffective over the years.  Again, defense may win championships, but it does not pay the bills.

Quote from: Steve Kerr
One of the things you have to do in this league is you have to have active big guys. There's a reason Boston was so good defensively...Those guys jump out on pick and rolls, they trap, they recover and protect the rim...We're trying to get more mobile on the interior.

(Supposedly Shaq offered to go on a diet, but Kerr decided to go in another direction... )

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2136 on: August 19, 2009, 01:59:28 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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So, Wiggle, speaking of defense, how *do* you expect to contain Shaq, without opening a bunch of open looks for Edgar's other shooters?  And how does Anthony Randolph defend *anybody*?

And for all the attacks on Michael Redd, how come he's outscoring Johnson so consistently, both overall and head to head?  11 out of 12 times is a trend, no?

(It's funny that you're quoting from members of blogs to make your point, though.  I could find some stuff on here calling Tony Allen the second coming of D. Wade.)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:05:30 PM by Roy Hobbs »

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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2137 on: August 19, 2009, 02:01:25 PM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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ORLANDO vs. PHILDELPHIA

Here's how we see this series matching up/playing out:

BACKCOURT
PHI - Baron Davis/Ronnie Brewer/Janero Pargo/Anthony Parker
ORL - Kirk Hinrich/Jason Richardson/Aaron Afflalo/Telfair

Baron Davis is probably the biggest X-factor in the series. We saw how he led the GSW to the upset of DAL. His biggest advantages vs. other PGs are quickness and his size. His size has also led to his body breaking down over long seasons --- which is why he's an X factor. Hinrich though is one of the better defensive PGs in the league and will make Davis work for every point(hopefully tiring Diddy downa bit). IIRC, Davis was running circles around a very young Devin Harris and Jason Terry in the DAL series. Hinrich is a tougher foe. Slight advantage PHI.

Don't forget that Jason Richardson was reason 1A why the Warriors upset the Mavericks. Richardson is careeer 19 ppg scorer and can score inside and out. I think folks are forgetting how dynamic an offensive weapon Richardson is b/c he's been in CHA and in a mess in PHO the last 2 years. Like Hinrich, Brewer is a very talented defender but still developing as a scorer. Parker helps make up for some of that scoring deficit, but he's 33 years old and will have a tough time vs. the younger, more athletic Afflalo. Slight (but larger) advantage ORL.

These backcourts are mirror images of each other --- a dynamic scorer paired with a strong defender.


SMALL FORWARD
PHI - Melo
ORL - Lebron

That each small forward is known by a single name says alot about this epic matchup. How you size this up is about percentages and probability.

Melo & Lebron light it up in this series. Bird vs. Nique, Pierce vs. Lebron. What sets them apart, IMO, is that there's a 60% chance that Melo shuts down Lebron for any significant stretch but a 80% chance Lebron, one of the leagues better defenders, can shut down Melo for a half or a game.

In an tight, even series like this those little advantages make all the difference. For example:

I disagree that Carmello will disappear in the playoffs, though.  Here's how he did against Kobe and the Lakers:  39 points, 31 points, 21 points, 15 points, 31 points, 25 points.

What's missing here is that while Melo finished with 21 points in the pivotal Game 3 (DEN had stolen homecourt and could really have put LA on it's heels), he was nearly non-existent in the 1st half and shot 30% for the Game. I remember watching that game thinking about half way through the 1st half "If DEN loses this game they lose the series.... If Melo could just show up for part of the 1st half... please god let the Lakers lose". Didn't happen. DEN made it a series but the momentum turned on that game.

Melo is a TREMENDOUS player, but he has shown (though with less frequency) the possibility of disappearing. And unlike Lebron he contributes less when his shot isn't going. Small edge ORL.


BIG MEN
PHI - Emeka Okafor/Andrew Bynum (backups: Joe Smith & Francisco Elson)
ORL - Charlier Villanueva/Marc Gasol (backups: Anderson Varejao, Jeff Foster, Darrell Arthur, Joel Anthony)

Villanueva is the best scorer of the bunch here, Okafor the strongest rebounder. Some of that rebounding is diminished with Villanueva playing away from the basket more than most PFs Okafor guards. 

Bynum has a slight advantage over Gasol (and may (or may not) have a higher ceiling but that matters not in a 7-game series). But they're remarkably similar players. Bynum is a slightly better defender, Gasol is  little tougher and more mobile (and less injury prone).

In the playoffs, the games slow down, and foul trouble becomes a much bigger issue -- especially with bigs helping out with Lebron and Melo going to the hoop. Frontcourt foul trouble will be a consistent issue throughout this series. This is where ORL has a HUGE advantage. If I were to rank the backup bigs:

1. Varejao - ORL
2. Foster - ORL
3. Smith - PHI
4. Arthur - ORL
5. Elson - PHI
5a. Anthony - ORL

Varejao is energy and defense and little scoring, he'll come in and give Bynum fits. Smith and Elson are 33 and 32 respectively, as is Jeff Foster. However Foster played as many minutes as Elson and Smith COMBINED last year. Smith has played 12,000 more minutes and nearly 300 more games than Foster and is clearly not the player he once was. He can't play 25 mpg throughout as series --- which we think he will have to.

Darrell Arthur can come in and score and defend and use his 6 fouls, when needed. And I would argue that Anthony (our 6th big) is as good as Francisco Elson at this point. There's not a way PHI can survive 2-3 games where either Bynum or Okafor are in foul trouble...an almost certainty in a tight series like this.

SCORING
We're not asking anyone to do anything they can't scoring wise --- these add up to 93 ppg. Given our great man defenders at the PG & SF spots, and defensive depth up front, we will have no problem holding a playoff opponent to 89-91 ppg.

Lebron - 25
Richardson - 18
Hinrich - 11
Villanueva - 9
Gasol - 10

Varejao - 8
Foster - 6
Telfair - 3
Afflalo - 3


SUMMARY
7 game series.  Maybe then goes to 8 OTs :)

Like i said, I have PHI as the #2 team in the East and would be a favorite to win it all if they get past ORL.

But the 3 factors --- not huge ones, but in a close series there are no huge factors --- that we think lead to an ORL victory are:

(1) a greater likelihood of Lebron shutting down Melo for one game (and/or Melo disappearing for a critical half) than the other way around. "Shutting down" here is a relative term ... something like Melo scoring 20 pts on 25 shots and being generally taken out of the flow of the game (like Game 3 in DEN vs. LA last year)

(2) frontline depth that allows ORL to absorb foul trouble/injuries that come with a tough series. ORL's frontline defenders can be more aggressive and will get more rest througout the game.

(3) ORL has homecourt advantage, game 7 is in Orlando.

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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2138 on: August 19, 2009, 02:01:50 PM »

Offline Edgar

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Dont vote for the Big Names vote for DEFENSE AND THE BETTER TEAM

I agree, defense is important.

Quote from: Peachtree Hoops
I mean Kelly Dwyer actually references Bibby's "league-worst defense." It is not a disillusioned Hawks fan's reality. It is plain reality. Mike Bibby makes teams worse on defense. If you need good defense to win championships, the signing of Bibby seems like a status quo deal. A lets try to hold on to this second round loss team move.

Did somebody say "second round loss?"

Quote from: 82games.com
Michael Redd is in a league of his own on defense at the shooting guard position.  The difference between Redd and the next lowest-rated shooting guard is three times as large as the difference between the 2nd and 10th lowest-rated shooting guards.  And Redd has been very consistently ineffective over the years.  Again, defense may win championships, but it does not pay the bills.

Quote from: Steve Kerr
One of the things you have to do in this league is you have to have active big guys. There's a reason Boston was so good defensively...Those guys jump out on pick and rolls, they trap, they recover and protect the rim...We're trying to get more mobile on the interior.

(Supposedly Shaq offered to go on a diet, but Kerr decided to go in another direction... )


Shaq is in the best shape of his life
Redd is rested and ready
Bibby is playing the most selfish bkb of his carrer
Manu is ready to rock
Delonte and Gomes are hungry
Turiaf know his name
Shard will make league pay
Jermaine Oneail NEVER had this supporting group
Quinton Ross the stopper is ready
Dudley is happy to see a LOT of garbage time this year
delfino...wow still more players here...increible
ahh I forgot the other starting Center brad miller...masn this team is just too much

Sorry Walker just too much deep to you


Taj and Jrue will be happy in Dleague
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:07:17 PM by Edgar »
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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2139 on: August 19, 2009, 02:04:19 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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BTW this is a side note, but

"(CHI/TOR): Chicago in 7

The talent 1-5 is obvious, but the lack of a bench allows Toronto to stave off elimination in a 4-2 hole and force a game 7 (yes, it's Finley with the buzzer-beating, game winning 3 in game 6).  In an epic, instant classic series, Chicago comes out on top with Deshawn Stevenson the X-factor. "

Through JR's own gameplan Stevenson will only be playing 11mpg.  Assuming his back is ok.  How can somebody playing 11 minutes a game be a substantial x factor? 
 
CB Draft LA Lakers: Lamarcus Aldridge, Carmelo Anthony,Jrue Holiday, Wes Matthews  6.11, 7.16, 8.14, 8.15, 9.16, 11.5, 11.16

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2140 on: August 19, 2009, 02:04:53 PM »

Offline Gainesville Celtic

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I think what is missing here in the Lebron versus Melo debate is the non statistical, observational, intangible arguments.

1. In the playoffs, LeBron is agressive and thrives on pressure. The more pressure you apply to Melo, the more he plays outside. LA ratched up the defense and the pressure and Melo hung outside shot 40% and 25% from 3 point land. melo has played in 8 playoff series and had 3 good ones and his shooting has really struggled in the others because he's playing a tougher brand of ball. leBron has no such problems.

2. LeBron's going to get all the calls in the playoffs. We all know that. I don't care that Melo is a star he doesn't get the treatment from the refs that LeBron does.

3. LeBron, in my estimation from observations, makes his team mates better and Melo doesn't. Put good players around LeBron anf he would have won 2 championships already. Cleveland has had some not so great talent around him but the talent he has had he has made much better. AV is average at best on a non LeBron team. Boobie Gibson would never be open to hit threes on another team. West is at his best when playing with LeBron.

4. LeBron has an unbelievable effect on his home court crowds creating a great home court advantage. His ability to get hot at home and turn a quiet crowd into a raucous riot is game changing. Orlando has the home court.


Ric Bucher is reporting that the Orlando Magics may be offering NickAgenta a position in their front office  ;)

I obviously agree with these points -- but esp. #1 & #3.

In my mind Lebron vs. Melo is like Bird vs. Nique. Great players but Bird/Lebron are super-duperstars that consistently transcend and make others better, while Melo and Nique are superstars that at times can transcend and take over, but don't do it consistently game in, game out and don't make their teammates better when they're not dominating.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:10:58 PM by Gainesville Celtic »
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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2141 on: August 19, 2009, 02:12:13 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Dont vote for the Big Names vote for DEFENSE AND THE BETTER TEAM

I agree, defense is important.

Quote from: Peachtree Hoops
I mean Kelly Dwyer actually references Bibby's "league-worst defense." It is not a disillusioned Hawks fan's reality. It is plain reality. Mike Bibby makes teams worse on defense. If you need good defense to win championships, the signing of Bibby seems like a status quo deal. A lets try to hold on to this second round loss team move.

Did somebody say "second round loss?"

Quote from: 82games.com
Michael Redd is in a league of his own on defense at the shooting guard position.  The difference between Redd and the next lowest-rated shooting guard is three times as large as the difference between the 2nd and 10th lowest-rated shooting guards.  And Redd has been very consistently ineffective over the years.  Again, defense may win championships, but it does not pay the bills.

Quote from: Steve Kerr
One of the things you have to do in this league is you have to have active big guys. There's a reason Boston was so good defensively...Those guys jump out on pick and rolls, they trap, they recover and protect the rim...We're trying to get more mobile on the interior.

(Supposedly Shaq offered to go on a diet, but Kerr decided to go in another direction... )


Shaq is in the best shape of his life
Redd is rested and ready
Bibby is playing the most selfish bkb of his carrer
Manu is ready to rock
Delonte and Gomes are hungry
Turiaf know his name
Shard will make league pay
Jermaine Oneail NEVER had this supporting group
Quinton Ross the stopper is ready
Dudley is happy to see a LOT of garbage time this year

Sorry Walker just too much deep to you


Taj and Jrue will be happy in Dleague
Yeah, Edgar, I wouldn't put it quite like that again because it reminded me about just how many injury(Redd, Manu, Jermaine) question marks, age(Shaq, Bibby) question marks and declining games(Bibby, Shaq, Jermaine, Miller)  question marks and possibly seriously overhyped players(on your team and with your hype, just about everyone) you have on your team.

Stick with hoping people forget that there's a lot of question marks and just do the statistical analysis.

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2142 on: August 19, 2009, 02:20:05 PM »

Offline Edgar

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nick

shame on You

to think they will be njuried its imposible
because that could be said about ALL players in this league
noone is undestructible unless is my red devils team
on ultimate league.

U are getting yourself a mercyless.... and feeding me with....



 ;D
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Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2143 on: August 19, 2009, 02:21:27 PM »

Offline RebusRankin

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Has Thad Young proven he can play PF? I seem to recall him struggling there.

Will Gordon be as effective if he's not the offensive focal point?

Re: 2009 Celticsblog Draft: Playoff Voting Analysis Thread
« Reply #2144 on: August 19, 2009, 02:21:41 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I went with Toronto and Philly in the East.

Toronto, I've spoken about before.  Their starting lineup matches up very well with Chicago's, and there's no contest between the two benches.

I agonized over the Philly / Orlando series.  It involves three of the classiest GMs in the league, and it involves two of the clear-cut top three teams in the East, in my opinion.  In the end, I went with my gut.  Philly will be able to defend the middle, and make Lebron work for his points.  Carmelo can score on the other end.  The logic probably breaks down at some point, but instinct tells me, Philly in 7.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:31:51 PM by Roy Hobbs »

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