Trade Idea: Kevin Martin?

[Mr October]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

This trade does not improve the 2 year window. it is just different. Good management in pro sports isn't run like a NBALive video game. There are egos, personalities, chemistry on the line.

Also there are limited funds. A team built around Rondo, Martin and Perk would be lucky to make the playoffs - and the cap would be near full. A 1 and a 5 are really, really hard to get; so I would like the C's to try to keep Rondo and Perkins. But beyond that, the Celtics need to do whatever they can to get an MVP level superstar (like KG, even including his ego and chemistry needs). That is how you become a title contender again. Kevin Martin will never lead a team to a title as the top banana.

Ainge would trade Ray if it was for a slam dunk deal. But to say he is purely mercenary, based on a comment about breaking up the original big 3, seams like a misconception. With the 80's team, the window for a title had closed and the C's hung on to McHale and Parish for too long. The window for this team is still wide open. At least for a year.

and in end.... of course Sacramento would be insane for giving up their best player for an expiring past his prime all star that has no future in Sacramento. 

[KungPoweChicken]

I'm not a big fan of the trade idea, but I figured I'd put up a thread in the trade idea forum.

Just saw this on realgm: 

http://www.sacbee.com/kings/story/2039010.html

He is entering the third season of his five-year contract worth approximately $53 million, with the prospect of being traded more possible than before, if only because 17-win teams must be open to everything. Martin knows that much, but said he hopes to see the turnaround all the way through.

"You definitely want (the Kings' rebuilding) to speed up," he said. "You definitely don't want to be scoring 25 (points) for no reason. … But I've still got time. I definitely want to be part of this. I'm just along for the ride."

It's kinda true.  The Kings definitely have a lot of money dedicated to players who are playing for a pretty crappy team.

Kevin Martin:  10.1 mil (4 more years)
Andres Nocioni:  7.5 mil (4 more years)
Beno Udrih: 6 mil (4 more years)
Francisco Garcia: 5.8 mil (4 more years)

Isn't that kinda a lot of money to dedicate to one good player and 3 mediocre players?

If they were looking to dump salary would they do this?

Ray Allen: 19.7 mil expiring

for

Kevin Martin and Nocioni?

Something like that? 

Crazy?

Possible?

Unthinkable?

If you are the C's, this a trade you have to make. Kevin Martin is what, twenty-six years old? That's an all-star caliber guy to pair with Rondo for years to come; moreover, there's not that big of a drop off from Allen to Martin, if there's any at all. They play similar games. Martin is a great shooter as well, and he has the ability to fit into a system. He's a good guy and plays without an ego.

Nocioni is just a bonus. Obviously, he is the big wing we need off the bench. But the love for this guy is well documented on here already, so there is no need to go into it.

This is a move that would keep us competitive for years to come. A Martin and Rondo back court would be the most young and dynamic back court in the league. You've got to make this deal. We could then package Pierce's expiring in a year for another young all-star. You never know. I'm not saying I want P gone. But, needless to say, this move for Martin would give us the flexibility to avoid the rebuilding stage and continue to stay competitive for years, which is what we all want.

[ssspence]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

But I don't think a trade of Ray for Martin and change gives us a better chance at #18.  Part of Ray's value is his ability to score 20 points per game without requiring many shots or plays run for him.  Other stars likely couldn't coexist nearly as well with all the other stars around here. 

Furthermore, with Wallace and Daniels on board, the whole need for depth is out the window.  Come playoff time, House, Daniels, and Wallace should be able to cover 95% or more of the backup minutes we'll need.  So anyone that the Kings would throw in with Martin is really meaningless.

On top of all that, it's not like trading Ray is the only way we can get value for him.  If I'm Ainge, I re-sign Allen to a Nash-like deal this summer, let his contract expire in the summer of 2012 with Wallace and Garnett (and hopefully Pierce if he'll take a 1 year extension) and we can have tens of millions of dollars to sign young players to go around Perk and Rondo without playing with chemistry now. 

my point was about ainge's commitment to ray because he's buddies with his teammates. ainge doesn't care. it's a business.

i don't really buy that ray offers hyper-efficinecy. he struggled through a number of second half and playoff stretches where the Cs had to work to get him shots in order to ensure rythm -- in many cases without success. i like ray and am very happy he's a celtic, but martin is a deadeye shooter as well, and very young with a reasonable contract for his output.

lastly the argument that the addition of danials means we have tons of bench depth is foolish. he has history of injury, and regardless of how many games he plays there is PLENTY of room for minutes from another veteran wing. Think the Cavs are going to play Parker, and not Moon, or Moon and not Parker? I know how exicted we all are that TA isn't the back-up anymore, but a short rotation on an old team is exactly where we struggled last year. depth is huge. adding a good wing player would certainly be an added benefit of this deal.

not that this deal has much of a chance of happening. but a deal like this could come up this year -- sac or otherwise -- considering the tough times for struggling franchises. and i would definitely do martin and garcia for allen. rondo, martin, garcia, walker, baby and perklton is a nice combo for banners 19, 20, 21....

Ummm... that is definitely not a combo for banners 19-21 with Lebron James still in the league.   He has more talent alone than all those players combined haha. 

yeah bud -- you add some guys.

[ssspence]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

This trade does not improve the 2 year window. it is just different. Good management in pro sports isn't run like a NBALive video game. There are egos, personalities, chemistry on the line.

Also there are limited funds. A team built around Rondo, Martin and Perk would be lucky to make the playoffs - and the cap would be near full. A 1 and a 5 are really, really hard to get; so I would like the C's to try to keep Rondo and Perkins. But beyond that, the Celtics need to do whatever they can to get an MVP level superstar (like KG, even including his ego and chemistry needs). That is how you become a title contender again. Kevin Martin will never lead a team to a title as the top banana.

Ainge would trade Ray if it was for a slam dunk deal. But to say he is purely mercenary, based on a comment about breaking up the original big 3, seams like a misconception. With the 80's team, the window for a title had closed and the C's hung on to McHale and Parish for too long. The window for this team is still wide open. At least for a year.

and in end.... of course Sacramento would be insane for giving up their best player for an expiring past his prime all star that has no future in Sacramento. 

leaving aside the usual c-blog debate -- would Ainge do this deal? the answer is an unequivocal yes. the fact is that management sees the core as PP and KG, followed by Rondo and Perk. Ray is a great key to their success but also their most valuable chip. he will be traded if a deal comes along for true all-star talent that can't be passed up. this would be one of those deals. to deny it is to live in denial.

[timepiece33]

Kevin Martin:  10.1 mil (4 more years)
Andres Nocioni:  7.5 mil (4 more years)
Beno Udrih: 6 mil (4 more years)

=  23 mil

For:

Ray Allen:  19.7 mil expiring
Brian Scalabrine: 3.4 mil expiring

= 23 mil

The Kings are currently stuck paying those 3 players a grand total of 95 million over the next 3 years.   Bringing in 23 mil in expiring contracts this year might be desirable.  Teams losing lots of money are always interested in saving 70 million dollars.

1.  There is no reason to include Scal and Udrih.   Nocioni's contract is deplorable. 

2. If you make this deal, you might as well include Rajon Rondo for Tyreke Evans since we won't be in a cap position to give him a big contract.

why?

Because like it or not, cap implications are a consideration in every deal.   

The likelihood that we can sign someone better than him in 2 years is reasonable. 

[LarBrd33]

Kevin Martin:  10.1 mil (4 more years)
Andres Nocioni:  7.5 mil (4 more years)
Beno Udrih: 6 mil (4 more years)

=  23 mil

For:

Ray Allen:  19.7 mil expiring
Brian Scalabrine: 3.4 mil expiring

= 23 mil

The Kings are currently stuck paying those 3 players a grand total of 95 million over the next 3 years.   Bringing in 23 mil in expiring contracts this year might be desirable.  Teams losing lots of money are always interested in saving 70 million dollars.

1.  There is no reason to include Scal and Udrih.   Nocioni's contract is deplorable. 

2. If you make this deal, you might as well include Rajon Rondo for Tyreke Evans since we won't be in a cap position to give him a big contract.

why?

Because like it or not, cap implications are a consideration in every deal.   

The likelihood that we can sign someone better than him in 2 years is reasonable. 

I don't see how making a trade like that would force us to let Rondo walk.  If we want to spend money we'll spend money.  The Celtics are one of the few teams who are in good financial shape. 

[timepiece33]

I don't see how making a trade like that would force us to let Rondo walk.  If we want to spend money we'll spend money.  The Celtics are one of the few teams who are in good financial shape. 

They'd probably trade him.   They already at the luxury tax before investing in Rondo.  Allen's expiring contract provides flexibility to retain both.  You just eliminated that benefit.

So the question is whether mgmt is willing to spend $16 to $20MM more dollars than they currently spending on salaries than they are this year?  Because that is what you accomplish with this deal and not trading Rondo as part of it. 

[vjcsmoke]

sac and chi gonna be low men for awhile


we been thru it and we know it takes time

Yup and you don't trade your young star for cap space to get rid of contracts unless your owners force you. Keep your star and try to bring in a superstar talent either through draft or trade. Both approaches require keeping and developing your young players.

Ok then offer Ray Allen, and throw in Giddens and Pruitt for Kmart and Nocioni.  The Kings clear a bad contract, get a huge expiring, a young talent for the future, and can cut Gabe for the cash savings as well.  Ray expires at the end of the year for nearly 20M dollars of cap relief.  Hmm?  I think we're getting too good a deal which is why it won't happen, but it's entertaining to think about.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m8aejs

[timepiece33]

Ok then offer Ray Allen, and throw in Giddens and Pruitt for Kmart and Nocioni.  The Kings clear a bad contract, get a huge expiring, a young talent for the future, and can cut Gabe for the cash savings as well.  Ray expires at the end of the year for nearly 20M dollars of cap relief.  Hmm?  I think we're getting too good a deal which is why it won't happen, but it's entertaining to think about.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m8aejs

While Nocioni's contract is utterly brutal, I don't believe that is enough to make it happen.

To Boston: Kevin Martin, Andres Nocioni, Sergio Rodriguez, and Tyreke Evans

To Sacramento: Rajon Rondo, Ray Allen, and Brian Scalabrine

IMO, Sacramento would do that deal.   Would Boston?