Trade Idea: Kevin Martin?

[Change]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

But I don't think a trade of Ray for Martin and change gives us a better chance at #18.  Part of Ray's value is his ability to score 20 points per game without requiring many shots or plays run for him.  Other stars likely couldn't coexist nearly as well with all the other stars around here. 

Furthermore, with Wallace and Daniels on board, the whole need for depth is out the window.  Come playoff time, House, Daniels, and Wallace should be able to cover 95% or more of the backup minutes we'll need.  So anyone that the Kings would throw in with Martin is really meaningless.

On top of all that, it's not like trading Ray is the only way we can get value for him.  If I'm Ainge, I re-sign Allen to a Nash-like deal this summer, let his contract expire in the summer of 2012 with Wallace and Garnett (and hopefully Pierce if he'll take a 1 year extension) and we can have tens of millions of dollars to sign young players to go around Perk and Rondo without playing with chemistry now. 

TP, People keep forgetting Ray just scored 50points. He isn't a dead weight on the team. Even if we get martin & company can you guarantee it will work? We have the right pieces NOW just leave it as is.

Besides Do you really believe Sacramento Kings will trade their franchise player?

[Fafnir]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

But I don't think a trade of Ray for Martin and change gives us a better chance at #18.  Part of Ray's value is his ability to score 20 points per game without requiring many shots or plays run for him.  Other stars likely couldn't coexist nearly as well with all the other stars around here. 

Furthermore, with Wallace and Daniels on board, the whole need for depth is out the window.  Come playoff time, House, Daniels, and Wallace should be able to cover 95% or more of the backup minutes we'll need.  So anyone that the Kings would throw in with Martin is really meaningless.

On top of all that, it's not like trading Ray is the only way we can get value for him.  If I'm Ainge, I re-sign Allen to a Nash-like deal this summer, let his contract expire in the summer of 2012 with Wallace and Garnett (and hopefully Pierce if he'll take a 1 year extension) and we can have tens of millions of dollars to sign young players to go around Perk and Rondo without playing with chemistry now. 

TP, People keep forgetting Ray just scored 50points. He isn't a dead weight on the team. Even if we get martin & company can you guarantee it will work? We have the right pieces NOW just leave it as is.

Besides Do you really believe Sacramento Kings will trade their franchise player?

No I don't, but their owners are losing a ton of money so strange things can happen.

I didn't think Minnesota would trade Garnett either.

[ssspence]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

But I don't think a trade of Ray for Martin and change gives us a better chance at #18.  Part of Ray's value is his ability to score 20 points per game without requiring many shots or plays run for him.  Other stars likely couldn't coexist nearly as well with all the other stars around here. 

Furthermore, with Wallace and Daniels on board, the whole need for depth is out the window.  Come playoff time, House, Daniels, and Wallace should be able to cover 95% or more of the backup minutes we'll need.  So anyone that the Kings would throw in with Martin is really meaningless.

On top of all that, it's not like trading Ray is the only way we can get value for him.  If I'm Ainge, I re-sign Allen to a Nash-like deal this summer, let his contract expire in the summer of 2012 with Wallace and Garnett (and hopefully Pierce if he'll take a 1 year extension) and we can have tens of millions of dollars to sign young players to go around Perk and Rondo without playing with chemistry now. 

my point was about ainge's commitment to ray because he's buddies with his teammates. ainge doesn't care. it's a business.

i don't really buy that ray offers hyper-efficinecy. he struggled through a number of second half and playoff stretches where the Cs had to work to get him shots in order to ensure rythm -- in many cases without success. i like ray and am very happy he's a celtic, but martin is a deadeye shooter as well, and very young with a reasonable contract for his output.

lastly the argument that the addition of danials means we have tons of bench depth is foolish. he has history of injury, and regardless of how many games he plays there is PLENTY of room for minutes from another veteran wing. Think the Cavs are going to play Parker, and not Moon, or Moon and not Parker? I know how exicted we all are that TA isn't the back-up anymore, but a short rotation on an old team is exactly where we struggled last year. depth is huge. adding a good wing player would certainly be an added benefit of this deal.

not that this deal has much of a chance of happening. but a deal like this could come up this year -- sac or otherwise -- considering the tough times for struggling franchises. and i would definitely do martin and garcia for allen. rondo, martin, garcia, walker, baby and perklton is a nice combo for banners 19, 20, 21....

[Jon]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

But I don't think a trade of Ray for Martin and change gives us a better chance at #18.  Part of Ray's value is his ability to score 20 points per game without requiring many shots or plays run for him.  Other stars likely couldn't coexist nearly as well with all the other stars around here. 

Furthermore, with Wallace and Daniels on board, the whole need for depth is out the window.  Come playoff time, House, Daniels, and Wallace should be able to cover 95% or more of the backup minutes we'll need.  So anyone that the Kings would throw in with Martin is really meaningless.

On top of all that, it's not like trading Ray is the only way we can get value for him.  If I'm Ainge, I re-sign Allen to a Nash-like deal this summer, let his contract expire in the summer of 2012 with Wallace and Garnett (and hopefully Pierce if he'll take a 1 year extension) and we can have tens of millions of dollars to sign young players to go around Perk and Rondo without playing with chemistry now. 

my point was about ainge's commitment to ray because he's buddies with his teammates. ainge doesn't care. it's a business.

i don't really buy that ray offers hyper-efficinecy. he struggled through a number of second half and playoff stretches where the Cs had to work to get him shots in order to ensure rythm -- in many cases without success. i like ray and am very happy he's a celtic, but martin is a deadeye shooter as well, and very young with a reasonable contract for his output.

lastly the argument that the addition of danials means we have tons of bench depth is foolish. he has history of injury, and regardless of how many games he plays there is PLENTY of room for minutes from another veteran wing. Think the Cavs are going to play Parker, and not Moon, or Moon and not Parker? I know how exicted we all are that TA isn't the back-up anymore, but a short rotation on an old team is exactly where we struggled last year. depth is huge. adding a good wing player would certainly be an added benefit of this deal.

not that this deal has much of a chance of happening. but a deal like this could come up this year -- sac or otherwise -- considering the tough times for struggling franchises. and i would definitely do martin and garcia for allen. rondo, martin, garcia, walker, baby and perklton is a nice combo for banners 19, 20, 21....

Well first, I think you and any of us are kidding ourselves if we think that banners post Big Three are going to come easy.  Most rebuilding jobs, even done well, don't yield championships.  Just look at the history of the NBA littered with near-champions that never did it.  So I wouldn't be too concerned about that. 

I wouldn't be devastated with the trade you suggest.  It may work.  But I don't get why we need to mess with what works.  Even without KG for 25 games, this team won 62 games last year.  Add KG back into the mix, the best sub we've had in 20 years, and a competent backup wing, and there's no reason to think this team couldn't contend for 70+ wins. 

I don't see how you tinker with a team like that.  Martin may work out, but keeping Ray around a few more years and using his expiring money in 2012 has just as good of a chance of working out too.

Also, I don't see how there's "plenty of room" for another wing.  There's only 96 mpg to go around at the 2/3.  Even if Pierce and Allen even put up 32 mpg (which is very low), Daniels would only have to put up 32 mpg to cover all their backup minutes.  Even if you knocked him down to 25 mpg, that's only 7 mpg left for this fourth wing.  I don't think it's worth messing with chemistry to upgrade the 4th wing spot for what, at best, would be 7 mpg.  I think we'll do just fine with Eddie House or Bill Walker getting those extra 7 mpg. 

[LarBrd33]

Well Martin is 8 years younger and probably better than Ray at this point. 

It's not going to happen.  I just was curious if people would pull the trigger on it.  You potentially sacrifice chemistry, but it opens up the window a bit.

[ssspence]

Well Martin is 8 years younger and probably better than Ray at this point. 

It's not going to happen.  I just was curious if people would pull the trigger on it.  You potentially sacrifice chemistry, but it opens up the window a bit.

agreed on all. jon, i'm assuming injuries and variables could be an issue. if martin is a better player this year than an aging allen, why wouldn't you want to add a high quality wing with that? maybe daniels doesn't play well and garcia / nocioni becomes first off the bench. maybe someone has a lingering ankle injury. etc etc...

[LarBrd33]

If something like this actually happened, it might make more sense that the Kings give up Beno Udrih along with Martin.   His contract is probably the worst, he could potentially play some backup point guard for Boston and the Kings could give lots of minutes to Ty Evans once he's gone.

Or if the Kings just wanted a massive salary dump:


Kevin Martin:  10.1 mil (4 more years)
Andres Nocioni:  7.5 mil (4 more years)
Beno Udrih: 6 mil (4 more years)

=  23 mil

For:

Ray Allen:  19.7 mil expiring
Brian Scalabrine: 3.4 mil expiring

= 23 mil

The Kings are currently stuck paying those 3 players a grand total of 95 million over the next 3 years.   Bringing in 23 mil in expiring contracts this year might be desirable.  Teams losing lots of money are always interested in saving 70 million dollars.

[Michael Anthony]

Who is setting Martin up, and who is drawing defenders off of him?

Playing with Rondo, and with Pierce and Garnett on the floor, should really open things up for Martin to perform better than he has in the past.

[LarBrd33]

Who is setting Martin up, and who is drawing defenders off of him?

Playing with Rondo, and with Pierce and Garnett on the floor, should really open things up for Martin to perform better than he has in the past.

Yeah Martin is probably better than Ray already at this point.  I think he's got some issues with his ankles.  So does Ray, though.

[Jon]

Well, I'll concede that if the C's were going to trade Ray, Kevin Martin would probably be about out as ideal of a replacement as possible.  What really makes Ray fit is his ability to be a scorer without having a ton of plays run for him, but also being able to blow up when the team does run plays for him.  Martin could do that too.

However, I still wouldn't mess with chemistry.  If I didn't think the C's were the best team in the NBA, I wouldn't say that.  But this is a team that won a very impressive 62 games and almost took out the Eastern champs without KG for 25 games + the playoffs, and basically a non-existent bench that left Pierce and Allen gassed.  Simply adding a healthy KG and Powe to that equation likely would've yielded 66-68 wins and a title #18.  Now, we get KG back, sign the best bench player we've had in 20 years (also solving our size problem, and bring in a competent backup SG/SF and I don't see how we can't win 70+ wins. 

I don't want to mess with what could be the greatest single season in Celtics history. 

Again, if I thought the C's weren't the best team in the NBA already and needed a shot in the arm, I'd be open to moves.  But I don't see how you gamble on the shot we have next year. 

[timepiece33]

Kevin Martin:  10.1 mil (4 more years)
Andres Nocioni:  7.5 mil (4 more years)
Beno Udrih: 6 mil (4 more years)

=  23 mil

For:

Ray Allen:  19.7 mil expiring
Brian Scalabrine: 3.4 mil expiring

= 23 mil

The Kings are currently stuck paying those 3 players a grand total of 95 million over the next 3 years.   Bringing in 23 mil in expiring contracts this year might be desirable.  Teams losing lots of money are always interested in saving 70 million dollars.

1.  There is no reason to include Scal and Udrih.   Nocioni's contract is deplorable. 

2. If you make this deal, you might as well include Rajon Rondo for Tyreke Evans since we won't be in a cap position to give him a big contract.

[action781]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

But I don't think a trade of Ray for Martin and change gives us a better chance at #18.  Part of Ray's value is his ability to score 20 points per game without requiring many shots or plays run for him.  Other stars likely couldn't coexist nearly as well with all the other stars around here. 

Furthermore, with Wallace and Daniels on board, the whole need for depth is out the window.  Come playoff time, House, Daniels, and Wallace should be able to cover 95% or more of the backup minutes we'll need.  So anyone that the Kings would throw in with Martin is really meaningless.

On top of all that, it's not like trading Ray is the only way we can get value for him.  If I'm Ainge, I re-sign Allen to a Nash-like deal this summer, let his contract expire in the summer of 2012 with Wallace and Garnett (and hopefully Pierce if he'll take a 1 year extension) and we can have tens of millions of dollars to sign young players to go around Perk and Rondo without playing with chemistry now. 

my point was about ainge's commitment to ray because he's buddies with his teammates. ainge doesn't care. it's a business.

i don't really buy that ray offers hyper-efficinecy. he struggled through a number of second half and playoff stretches where the Cs had to work to get him shots in order to ensure rythm -- in many cases without success. i like ray and am very happy he's a celtic, but martin is a deadeye shooter as well, and very young with a reasonable contract for his output.

lastly the argument that the addition of danials means we have tons of bench depth is foolish. he has history of injury, and regardless of how many games he plays there is PLENTY of room for minutes from another veteran wing. Think the Cavs are going to play Parker, and not Moon, or Moon and not Parker? I know how exicted we all are that TA isn't the back-up anymore, but a short rotation on an old team is exactly where we struggled last year. depth is huge. adding a good wing player would certainly be an added benefit of this deal.

not that this deal has much of a chance of happening. but a deal like this could come up this year -- sac or otherwise -- considering the tough times for struggling franchises. and i would definitely do martin and garcia for allen. rondo, martin, garcia, walker, baby and perklton is a nice combo for banners 19, 20, 21....

Ummm... that is definitely not a combo for banners 19-21 with Lebron James still in the league.   He has more talent alone than all those players combined haha. 

[LarBrd33]

Kevin Martin:  10.1 mil (4 more years)
Andres Nocioni:  7.5 mil (4 more years)
Beno Udrih: 6 mil (4 more years)

=  23 mil

For:

Ray Allen:  19.7 mil expiring
Brian Scalabrine: 3.4 mil expiring

= 23 mil

The Kings are currently stuck paying those 3 players a grand total of 95 million over the next 3 years.   Bringing in 23 mil in expiring contracts this year might be desirable.  Teams losing lots of money are always interested in saving 70 million dollars.

1.  There is no reason to include Scal and Udrih.   Nocioni's contract is deplorable. 

2. If you make this deal, you might as well include Rajon Rondo for Tyreke Evans since we won't be in a cap position to give him a big contract.

why?

[Mr October]

That is a tough call. I think you can't do it yet though. There is a trust between KG, Pierce, Ray, Sheed and management. They are all in this together because of each other's presence.

If Ray is traded, it could send a bad ripple through a tight locker room. I think after the 2 year window closes though, all bets are off.

But it would be freaking tempting to flip Ray for a young all star level replacement.

i think you're kidding yourself on this. danny will trade ray if it means a better chance at winning #18. I think I'd prefer this be Garcia and Martin, but either way it's pretty clearcut.

This trade does not improve the 2 year window. it is just different. Good management in pro sports isn't run like a NBALive video game. There are egos, personalities, chemistry on the line.

Also there are limited funds. A team built around Rondo, Martin and Perk would be lucky to make the playoffs - and the cap would be near full. A 1 and a 5 are really, really hard to get; so I would like the C's to try to keep Rondo and Perkins. But beyond that, the Celtics need to do whatever they can to get an MVP level superstar (like KG, even including his ego and chemistry needs). That is how you become a title contender again. Kevin Martin will never lead a team to a title as the top banana.

Ainge would trade Ray if it was for a slam dunk deal. But to say he is purely mercenary, based on a comment about breaking up the original big 3, seams like a misconception. With the 80's team, the window for a title had closed and the C's hung on to McHale and Parish for too long. The window for this team is still wide open. At least for a year.

[xmuscularghandix]

Lets just sign Kevin Martin when his deal expires and we have all this "post-big3" money.

Rondo
Martin


Perkins


good start.