Roy Hobbs - Big Baby S&T question

[Jeff]

Roy,

here's what you wrote about Big Baby back in June

http://www.celticsblog.com/2009/6/3/896268/celtics-salary-cap-situation-and

14) If it looks like we're going to lose BBD as a free agent, could we sign and trade him to another team?

Nothing prevents us from signing and trading BBD using the Early Bird exception.  However, Base Year Compensation rules (as explained in Question 13) make it pretty tough to pull off such a trade.  For instance, if BBD signs for $4.0 million in his first year, there is *no* 1-for-1 trade that could be made for him under BYC rules.  There may be some wiggle room by including a minimum salary player, but there's not much.

By example:

Let's say BBD signs for $4 million in the first year, and we want to trade him to Team X.

For BYC purposes, BBD's salary counts as a $2 million salary outgoing from Boston.   To fit within trade rules, the most salary we can take back from another team (Team X) is 125% of that amount, plus $100k.  That amounts to $2.6 million.

Does that mean we can acquire a player making $2.6 million, then?  No.  The trade has to work from Team X's end, too, and from their end, they have to count BBD's entire $4 million salary.  The absolute least amount they could send out in a trade of a $4 million salary is $3.12 million.  As you see, that's still more than the $2.6 million Boston can take back.

Now, one way around this would be to include a minimum salary player in the team (going from Team X to Boston), because minimum salary players don't have to be counted as incoming salary in a trade.  For instance, let's say we want to trade BBD's $4 million salary for a player making $2.5 million and a minimum salary player, making around $800k.  Can we do that?  Yes.

As noted above, Boston can trade BBD's hypothetical $4 million salary for a player making up to $2.6 million.  In this case, the $2.5 million player fits under this restriction.  Because minimum salary players can be included in a trade at any time without counting against outgoing salary, from Team X's end, it is only sending out $2.5 million in salary (when, in actuality, the real number it is trading is $3.3 million).  On the other hand, remember that Boston has to take back at least $3.12 million in salary.  Does it meet this requirement?  Yes, because Boston can elect to include the actual amount of salaries it is taking back, or in this case, $3.3 million.

The lesson to learn here is that a sign-and-trade with BBD is possible, but it's not probable, due to the small margin of error with which the Celts have to work in terms of matching salaries.

help us out - pick a team (say the Hornets) and put some names in to make this work - if only from a financial perspective

do we even HAVE minimum contract players anymore?  could we sign someone to the league Min just to trade them with Baby?  I'm confused (as I'm sure most people are with this BYC stuff)

thanks

[paintitgreen]

Jeff, I'm shocked. Obviously you're a big C&H fan, but how can you of all people misspell Hobbs?

FYI, this is a hugely complex question since the baseline determination involves what the ultimate salary for Davis will be. Without knowing that information it's extremely difficult to see what exactly we can take back for him and what we have to include to do so.

[ssspence]

what about baby in the 4 range and mikki moore at the minimum for julian wright and devin brown, or julian wright and hilton armstrong?

[Jeff]

Jeff, I'm shocked. Obviously you're a big C&H fan, but how can you of all people misspell Hobbs?

FYI, this is a hugely complex question since the baseline determination involves what the ultimate salary for Davis will be. Without knowing that information it's extremely difficult to see what exactly we can take back for him and what we have to include to do so.

simple, I'm a spelling idiot

[Redz]

Jeff, I'm shocked. Obviously you're a big C&H fan, but how can you of all people misspell Hobbs?

lol...better you  than me...I noticed that too

[LarBrd33]

Jeff I think you got it backwards.  If I'm reading Roy correctly he's saying that if we signed Baby to 4 mil, we could trade him to a team who has a guy making 2.5 mil and a min salary guy.

Boston wouldn't be including the min salary guy... the OTHER team would.

So it would be:

Boston sends:  Glen Davis (making 4 mil)
Boston Receives: Guy #1 (2.5 mil) Guy #2 (min salary)

Right?

I'm not sure how these figures change if Baby is making 5... or 6 mil.

[Jeff]

Jeff I think you got it backwards.  If I'm reading Roy correctly he's saying that if we signed Baby to 4 mil, we could trade him to a team who has a guy making 2.5 mil and a min salary guy.

Boston wouldn't be including the min salary guy... the OTHER team would.

So it would be:

Boston sends:  Glen Davis (making 4 mil)
Boston Receives: Guy #1 (2.5 mil) Guy #2 (min salary)

Right?

I'm not sure how these figures change if Baby is making 5... or 6 mil.

ahhh, you are right - so not only does my spelling stink, but my reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired as well

[LarBrd33]

He explains the entire issue in the question above it:

13) So, we have Bird rights to Leon Powe.  Does that mean we could sign him to a huge one-year deal, and then trade him to another team as an "expiring contract"?

No.  If you give a player larger than a 20% raise, he's subject to something called "base year compensation".  Essentially, what this means is that for purposes of trades, you only count 50% of the player's actual salary as outgoing salary for trade purposes.  However, the team trading *for* the BYC player has to count 100% of his actual salary for incoming purposes.

I know that's confusing as heck, so let me use an example.  Let's say we want to trade Leon for a player making $7 million.  We thus intend to sign Leon to a one-year, $7 million contract.  Here's how that breaks down under BYC rules:

Boston trades:  Leon Powe ($7 million salary * 50% reduction = $3.5 million)
Boston receives: $7 million player

The trade cannot go through, because the $3.5 million and $7.0 million salaries don't "match" within 125% + $100k.

Couldn't we just sign Leon to a $14 million expiring contract to complete the trade, then?  No.  Here's why not:

Boston trades: Leon ($14 million salary * 50% reduction = $7.0 million)
Boston receives: $7 million player

So far so good, right?  However, the next step kills it:

Team X trades: $7 million player
Team X receives: Leon Powe ($14 million salary, with no reduction)

Thus, once again, the salaries don't "match".  Base year compensation makes it very difficult (although not impossible) for players to be traded in the first year of contracts where they saw a substantial raise.

The problem is that salaries have to match.

So if we gave Glen Davis a contract making 6 mil... he would only count as 50% of that due to this rule.  So he would equal 3 mil outgoing.    But to the team receiving him, he counts as 6 mil incoming.

Here's what I want to know.

What if we traded Glen to a team with cap room?


This is completely crazy, unrealistic and would never happen, but what about this scenario.

Portland has like 9 mil in cap room, right?

Couldn't we theoretically give Glen Davis a contract making 8 million and then trade him to Portland for Travis Outlaw (making 4 million).

Boston sends:  Glen Davis (making 8 mil)
Portland sends:  Travis Outlaw (making 4 mil)

Doesn't this work?  From our perspective Glen would only count as 4 mil outgoing... thus we could only take back 4 mil incoming.

From Portland's perspective they are sending out 4 mil and taking back 8 mil, but it works, because they have 9 mil in cap space.

Right?

What other teams have cap room?  Wouldn't this also work seeing as the Timberwolves have like 8 mil in cap room? (also completely unrealistic, because the Timberwolves have no need for Glen)

Boston sends Glen Davis making 6 mil
Boston receives Corey Brewer making 3 mil.

[Lucky17]

If I understand things correctly, and my math is right, here are two scenarios of signing and trading Davis to NO for a targeted player.

1. To send Baby to NO for Hilton Armstrong ($2.8 mil), we would need to sign Baby to a contract starting at about $4.35 mil or less. NO would also include Devin Brown's minimum level contract ($1.1 mil), which does not factor into the equation as far as Boston's max incoming salary.

BOS outgoing salary: $2.175 mil ($4.35 mil / 2)
BOS incoming salary: $2.8 mil
BOS max incoming salary: $2.81875 mil ($4.35 mil / 2 x 1.25 + $100k)

NO outgoing salary: $3.9 mil
NO incoming salary: $4.35 mil
NO max incoming salary: $4.975 mil

2. To send Baby to NO for Julian Wright (just over $2 mil, using $2.01 mil), we would need to sign Baby to a contract starting at about $3.9 mil or less. NO would also include Devin Brown's minimum level contract ($1.1 mil), which does not factor into the equation as far as Boston's max incoming salary.

BOS outgoing salary: $1.95 mil ($3.9 mil / 2)
BOS incoming salary: $2.01 mil
BOS max incoming salary: $2.5375 mil ($3.9 mil / 2 x 1.25 + $100k)

NO outgoing salary: $3.11 mil
NO incoming salary: $3.9 mil
NO max incoming salary: $3.9875 mil

[LarBrd33]

and if I'm right about the above....
 
My follow-up question is this.   Can we include players in our sign-and-trade?

In other words:

Glen Davis 5 mil (2.5 mil outgoing) + Brian Scalabrine 3.4 mil.

Wouldn't that it count as 2.5 + 3.4 outgoing.  Total:  5.9 outgoing?

Then couldn't we trade both of those guys to Oklahoma for Nick Collison making 6.2 mil?  

From Oklahoma's perspective they are sending out 6.2 mil, but taking back 8.4 mil... and yet shouldn't that work due to the fact they have like 20 mil in cap space?  

[Roy Hobbs]

I think you have that backward, Lucky.  BYC means that our *outgoing* salary is cut to 50%, not the incoming.

(It's a long day, though, so my brain may not be working.  This stuff is complex.)

[BudweiserCeltic]

I think you have that backward, Lucky.  BYC means that our *outgoing* salary is cut to 50%, not the incoming.

(It's a long day, though, so my brain may not be working.  This stuff is complex.)

You're correct. We compare half the salary, against the full salary of the incoming. I didn't read Lucky's post though.

[Lucky17]

I think you have that backward, Lucky.  BYC means that our *outgoing* salary is cut to 50%, not the incoming.

(It's a long day, though, so my brain may not be working.  This stuff is complex.)

Ah, let me rework the math then.

How about now?

[amenhotep04]

Jeff I think you got it backwards.  If I'm reading Roy correctly he's saying that if we signed Baby to 4 mil, we could trade him to a team who has a guy making 2.5 mil and a min salary guy.

Boston wouldn't be including the min salary guy... the OTHER team would.

So it would be:

Boston sends:  Glen Davis (making 4 mil)
Boston Receives: Guy #1 (2.5 mil) Guy #2 (min salary)

Right?

I'm not sure how these figures change if Baby is making 5... or 6 mil.

ahhh, you are right - so not only does my spelling stink, but my reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired as well

Somewhere a university is taking you off their alumni list.

[nickagneta]

I think Lucky's numbers are right if Devin Brown is a minimum contract guy which I don't have a confirmation on.