Should Red Sox trade for Roy Halladay??

[Big_Matt34]

would they trade him in their own division?

That's a good question. But remember, they sent Roger to the Yankees so its not unprecedented in Blue Jays history to deal stars in division.

Not only that, but the Jays saw the Twins refuse to trade Johan to the Sox or Yanks and end up taking a garbage package from the Mets. Yeah it would hurt the Jays to see Roy pitching against them 5 times a year but it would hurt worse to take a subpar package and have your team struggle because of it.

They may not want to trade him within the division but it would be dumb to ignore the best package, regardless of the team who offers it.

[yall hate]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4311661

Would a package of Penny, Masterson and Buchholz be too much to offer or would it even be enough? Of course, the Sox could insist first on the right to negotiate a long term contract with him before doing the trade.

Probably not enough.  The Jays have no reason for Penny, and buch and masterson likely isnt enough.  It would probably cost something like Buch, Lars Anderson, and then one of bowden/hagadone/masterson. 

But the ultimate answer is the Sox wouldnt.  Halladay is due almost 15 mill this year, 15 mill next year, and with the no trade will likely require an extension above and beyond.  I dont think the sox would be interested in giving up the young talent and $ necessary for a 32 year old pitcher who has a TON of miles on him (yes, he has been fairly durable, but he has a ton of miles)

[Big_Matt34]

Tony Mazz just wrote this on Boston.com

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

"The Toronto Blue Jays may be willing to listen to offers for righthander Roy Halladay, but according to a baseball source, the Jays have had no discussions with the Red Sox to this point and would be surprised if the Red Sox expressed any willingness to trade young players for the Toronto ace."

"Sox officials have yet to comment about Ricciardi’s announcement earlier today that he would listen to offers for Halladay. While major league tampering rules prohibit the Sox from expressing any public interest in the pitcher, team officials have yet to give any indication privately, either."

[Big_Matt34]

The Red Sox are supposedly interested in Halladay and the Blue Jays seem to have interest in Clay Buchholz. Clay pitched today in Pawtucket and the Blue Jays sent two scouts to watch including Sal Butera, a special assistant to Blue Jays General Manager J.P. Ricciardi. They want a SS too in any Halladay trade so they could of also been there to watch Lowrie, who is playing in Pawtucket right now on a rehab stint.

Now, after todays game Francona said Buchholz will be starting on Friday to help Smoltz get some rest and let everyone know when they will pitch after the break. Makes sense and is understandable, but it is a bit tough to ignore that Clay will be making the start in Toronto, for their fans and front office to see in person. I dont really think to much of it but it certainly does make you think it isnt a coincidence.

[yall hate]

The Red Sox are certainly interested and the Blue Jays seem to have interest in Clay Buchholz. Clay pitched today in Pawtucket and the Blue Jays sent two scouts to watch including Sal Butera, a special assistant to Blue Jays General Manager J.P. Ricciardi.

Now, after todays game Francona said Buchholz will be starting on Friday to help Smoltz get some rest and let everyone know when they will pitch after the break. Makes sense and is understandable, but it is a bit tough to ignore that Clay will be making the start in Toronto, for their fans and front office to see in person. I dont really think to much of it but it certainly does make you think it isnt a coincidence.

As I said in the other thread (for completeness)

That being said, I am not getting that excited about the possibility of acquiring Roy yet.  there are going to be so many rumors, that it drives me nuts following it this early.  There is so much gamesmanship that goes on, the Jays may not have even talked to the sox about this, but sending a scout to watch Buch certainly ups the ante for anyone who is talking to the jays.

The Sox have already given their reason for having Buch come up (and it makes sense).  They want a 6th starter in case Beckett and Wake pitch in the all star game, and then need an extra day.

So we'll see.  Let the rampant speculation begin

Edit: I think the package needed to get him all determines how excited to be.  The Jays know they can let him walk at the expiration of his draft and get two good draft picks.  So (and JP already said this) it needs to be more than 2 good prospects.  I think in a trade for Halladay the Sox are looking at a deal starting with Buch and one of Masterson, Bard, Bowden (not saying those guys are even talent levels) and then you are probably still looking at having to include a top 10 talent (soxprospects.com is pretty good to check them out) and probably one of these 5 tool type kids, who isnt going to see the big leagues for years if at all (like Engel Beltre in the awful awful Gagne trade).

Thats a lot...

[ToppersBsktball10]

Buchholtz it overrated I'd love to get Halladay for him,Penny,Masterson and maybe a few prospects.

[Big_Matt34]

The Red Sox are certainly interested and the Blue Jays seem to have interest in Clay Buchholz. Clay pitched today in Pawtucket and the Blue Jays sent two scouts to watch including Sal Butera, a special assistant to Blue Jays General Manager J.P. Ricciardi.

Now, after todays game Francona said Buchholz will be starting on Friday to help Smoltz get some rest and let everyone know when they will pitch after the break. Makes sense and is understandable, but it is a bit tough to ignore that Clay will be making the start in Toronto, for their fans and front office to see in person. I dont really think to much of it but it certainly does make you think it isnt a coincidence.

As I said in the other thread (for completeness)

That being said, I am not getting that excited about the possibility of acquiring Roy yet.  there are going to be so many rumors, that it drives me nuts following it this early.  There is so much gamesmanship that goes on, the Jays may not have even talked to the sox about this, but sending a scout to watch Buch certainly ups the ante for anyone who is talking to the jays.

The Sox have already given their reason for having Buch come up (and it makes sense).  They want a 6th starter in case Beckett and Wake pitch in the all star game, and then need an extra day.

So we'll see.  Let the rampant speculation begin

I too think getting Halladay is a longshot, Riccardi may trade him within the division but im sure it isnt his preference, and Theo loves his prospects and is unlikely to overpay. I think the best way to get Halladay for a fair package is too take back a contract like Overbay or Rolen, both of whom the Red Sox could use. Maybe a package of Buchholz/Bowden/Lowrie for Halladay and Rolen or something like that could be done, not saying id do it because i really want to keep Lowrie. Id think any package would involve Buchholz and Bowden, its the 3rd prospect where it gets tougher. I think the Jays would go for any deal with those 2 plus someone like Yamaico Navarro or Ryan Kalish and a DSL guy with upside like you said, which is alot. But the other side of it is Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball and probably can pitch at this level for another 4 years or so.

If i had to bet id think Halladay ends up in Philly as long as they give up Happ. The Red Sox definately have the pieces to get Halladay, and if Boston offers the best deal i think the Jays would be dumb to not atleast consider it even though its within the division.

[ToppersBsktball10]

would they trade him in their own division?

The Jays GM has come out and said that he doesn't care about trading in their own division seeing as he's a free agent in a few years and he could sign with the Sox or Yankees anyway and they wouldn't get anything back. So he said he'd be willing to ship him off to Boston or to New York. Hopefully Boston.

[yall hate]

Buchholtz it overrated I'd love to get Halladay for him,Penny,Masterson and maybe a few prospects.

Buch isnt even close to overrated.  If you could completely wipe your mind of his success AND failures in Boston thus far, a 25 year old pitcher with an ERA of 2.36 in AAA, while averaging almost a K an inning and under 3 walks per nine innings is silly good.   now factor in his ML experience and he has been outstanding and horrible...
Than start considering that his fastball tops out at 97, a great curveball and the change and slider as other pitches...he is one of the best pitching prospects in baseball period. 

The jays would have no desire for Penny, unless they think he is going to be a type A free agent at the end of the year (he wont be) which would also require them to offer arbitration (which they wouldnt)

[yall hate]

 and Theo loves his prospects and is unlikely to overpay.

I think the best way to get Halladay for a fair package is too take back a contract like Overbay or Rolen, both of whom the Red Sox could use. Maybe a package of Buchholz/Bowden/Lowrie for Halladay and Rolen or something like that could be done, not saying id do it because i really want to keep Lowrie. Id think any package would involve Buchholz and Bowden, its the 3rd prospect where it gets tougher. I think the Jays would go for any deal with those 2 plus someone like Yamaico Navarro or Ryan Kalish which is alot, but Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball and probably can pitch at this level for another 4 years or so.

Theo loving his prospects is right on.  He has NEVER made a trade involving top prospects for older players.  NEVER.  It goes against his philosophy.  They wouldnt do it for Santana, and I truly doubt they would do it for Halladay (A pitcher who has more mileage - at least it seems that way, with him throwing lots and lots of pitches, although I could be wrong)

I dont think the Sox would move Lowrie because he offers some stability at a position they havent been able to stabalize.  couple that with the fact he is coming off a serious injury and I am not sure the Jays would want him (maybe after they watched him play for a year, but not likely this soon)

[Big_Matt34]

Buchholz it overrated I'd love to get Halladay for him,Penny,Masterson and maybe a few prospects.

Fixed, SOSH would love you. Buchholz isnt overrated right now because everyone rates him what he is, a guy who can be an ace in the majors but is inconsistant with his fastball command. He has a plus plus curveball, plus plus changeup, above average 4 seamer, and now has added a plus 2 seamer to his repetoire, if he was in the majors right now there is no doubt in my mind he'd be putting up better numbers than Penny.

Jays would have no interest in Penny as said earlier in this thread, if they deal Halladay itd mean they are giving up on this season so theyd have no use for an older pitcher who is a FA after this year. The only teams who would want Penny are ones who need another pitcher to put them over the top for a playoff push, most likely an NL team. I do think theyd like Masterson though, he needs to learn how to pitch to lefties though.

[Big_Matt34]

 and Theo loves his prospects and is unlikely to overpay.

I think the best way to get Halladay for a fair package is too take back a contract like Overbay or Rolen, both of whom the Red Sox could use. Maybe a package of Buchholz/Bowden/Lowrie for Halladay and Rolen or something like that could be done, not saying id do it because i really want to keep Lowrie. Id think any package would involve Buchholz and Bowden, its the 3rd prospect where it gets tougher. I think the Jays would go for any deal with those 2 plus someone like Yamaico Navarro or Ryan Kalish which is alot, but Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball and probably can pitch at this level for another 4 years or so.

Theo loving his prospects is right on.  He has NEVER made a trade involving top prospects for older players.  NEVER.  It goes against his philosophy.  They wouldnt do it for Santana, and I truly doubt they would do it for Halladay (A pitcher who has more mileage - at least it seems that way, with him throwing lots and lots of pitches, although I could be wrong)

I dont think the Sox would move Lowrie because he offers some stability at a position they havent been able to stabalize.  couple that with the fact he is coming off a serious injury and I am not sure the Jays would want him (maybe after they watched him play for a year, but not likely this soon)

Like i said, i want nothing to do with trading Lowrie as ive seen enough of Nick Green and Lugo. Nick green did an admirable job filling in but he is reverting to the player he really is, a bad one. Lowrie is better on defense than Green and if he is healthy he will put up better offesnive numbers.

As for Halladay vs Santana, Halladay definately has more mileage but he has a much better frame than Johan and seems like he will be able to adjust much better when he starts to really lose his velocity. Also a righty, groundball pitcher is a better fit for Fenway, but id have to agree with you in that Theo wont give up the prospects for a deal. With no games until Friday, this is going to get alot of talk on EEI and such over the next few days, will be annoying.

[wdleehi]

I am happy that my Phillies are the favorites in this race. 

[ToppersBsktball10]

Buchholz it overrated I'd love to get Halladay for him,Penny,Masterson and maybe a few prospects.

Fixed, SOSH would love you. Buchholz isnt overrated right now because everyone rates him what he is, a guy who can be an ace in the majors but is inconsistant with his fastball command. He has a plus plus curveball, plus plus changeup, above average 4 seamer, and now has added a plus 2 seamer to his repetoire, if he was in the majors right now there is no doubt in my mind he'd be putting up better numbers than Penny.

Jays would have no interest in Penny as said earlier in this thread, if they deal Halladay itd mean they are giving up on this season so theyd have no use for an older pitcher who is a FA after this year. The only teams who would want Penny are ones who need another pitcher to put them over the top for a playoff push, most likely an NL team. I do think theyd like Masterson though, he needs to learn how to pitch to lefties though.

Yeah, the Jays have said they're practically giving up. But I mean I love Buchholz yet If he has so much potential you'd think he'd show a little something besides the no-hitter. I'd rather have Halladay than Buchholz. Plus Penny's been decent coming off shoulder surgery. I know he has a nice change up but he doesn't have a blow away fast ball to compliment it.

[yall hate]

Buchholz it overrated I'd love to get Halladay for him,Penny,Masterson and maybe a few prospects.

Fixed, SOSH would love you. Buchholz isnt overrated right now because everyone rates him what he is, a guy who can be an ace in the majors but is inconsistant with his fastball command. He has a plus plus curveball, plus plus changeup, above average 4 seamer, and now has added a plus 2 seamer to his repetoire, if he was in the majors right now there is no doubt in my mind he'd be putting up better numbers than Penny.

Jays would have no interest in Penny as said earlier in this thread, if they deal Halladay itd mean they are giving up on this season so theyd have no use for an older pitcher who is a FA after this year. The only teams who would want Penny are ones who need another pitcher to put them over the top for a playoff push, most likely an NL team. I do think theyd like Masterson though, he needs to learn how to pitch to lefties though.

Yeah, the Jays have said they're practically giving up. But I mean I love Buchholz yet If he has so much potential you'd think he'd show a little something besides the no-hitter. I'd rather have Halladay than Buchholz. Plus Penny's been decent coming off shoulder surgery. I know he has a nice change up but he doesn't have a blow away fast ball to compliment it.

Who doesnt have a blow away fastball?  You cant be talking about Penny....right? over the last 30 days, his fb is the 5th fastest of all sp. (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=4&season=2009&month=3)  (not that having a fast fastball makes you a good pitcher)

Again, people have short memories.  Buch has shown a ton (just not in 2008...when he was bad, lost his confidence, and was a mess).  Go back and look at what he did in 2007 (even without the no hitter).  Or go look at what he did in preseason this year.  or at AAA.