Author Topic: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?  (Read 27108 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2009, 12:53:16 PM »

Offline dlpin

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 842
  • Tommy Points: 183
You are wrong because you assume that Danny wouldn't want players signed to long term contracts. He may have n problem with that with the right players. Yes we get back that $18 million back you keep mentioning(I think Ray's number alone is $19.7 million) but if $10 million of it is tied up for 4 years with a player the Celtics would want that long at that price and another $8 million is tied up for 2 extra years for a player Danny feels is worth the price, then what does it matter?

In my example Ray would go to GSW for Maggette and Jackson. Danny might feel that Maggette and Jackson signed for what they are signed at for the length of time they are signed at is just fine.

You are wrong because it doesn't matter what we are paying Pierce and KG or any other player because we have Rondo's Bird rights and can re-sign him to whatever we want. How exactly does anyone else's contract have any bearing on retaining Rondo when we own his Bird rights and can offer him more money than anyone else.

You are wrong because even though Ray won't get a max deal, he isn't about to start earning vet minimum contracts either. Ray could still demand and get on the open market a three year deal in the $27-$33 million range. While that is a savings, it is not a savings that helps the Celtics because it doesn't get them under the salary cap so the Celtics would still be extremely limited in what they can offer future free agents. Heck, Ray could take a vet min contract and he still won't help the Celtics in getting under the cap to sign major free agents.

Since major free agency to better the team is out of the question, then the only other two options is to ride the Big Three into the dust while surrounding them with mediocre talent and hoping they stay healthy and can squeeze another championship out or by trading them for lateral talent movement and longer years on contracts and rebuilding through trades.

Danny has already mentioned that he felt the original Big Three were held onto for too long and that the proper move was to trade them away earlier and rebuild that way.

So let me get this straight:
the boston celtics would trade ray allen because they have no problems addind 18 million dollars in long term contracts. plus the contracts of pierce and garnett, plus resigning rondo?

That would require taking on a lot of money long term. I don't think there is any doubt in my mind that Ray Allen is going to get at the very least about 5 to 6 million cheaper after this season. So we trade him, losing not only a talented all star, but some cap and salary relief as well.

And whether or not we own Rondo's Bird rights is irrelevant. A couple of a million a year was the difference between signing Posey and letting him go, but they would completely obliterate any sort of financial flexibility in order to trade Ray? Because even a 3 year, 33 million dollar contract (to cite the high end of your figure) is still 8 million dollars worth of savings.

As for your example, do you really think that after not matching the MLE for 32 year old Posey, they'd be willing to take Maggete AND Jackson, both will be 30 or over when next season starts and are signed for 10 mill a year for 4 additional years?

Ray won't be traded. He is exactly what Boston wants in all senses: veteran all star with leadership skills suited for a run at the title, and not only that, but also gives the celtics additional flexibility. Whether or not we have Bird rights on any player is irrelevant if the owners won't spend more than a certain amount, and so taking 18 million dollars worth of long term contracts, even if it is not cents on the dollar, is still hurting our chances at keeping Rondo.

Facts are that trading Ray reduces financial flexibility. I mean, it is only logical: we can't trade away an expiring contract and get salary relief in return. And given that we know that there is a certain amount of money the owners wont spend, adding unreasonable contracts for a long time.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2009, 12:56:16 PM »

Online Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 53410
  • Tommy Points: 2578
The team could trade Ray and take say $10mil in long term salary, and $8mil in expiring or soon-to-expire contracts -- and gain some financial flexibility that way. For example, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

The team does not need to take 100% long term money back in a Ray Allen trade.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2009, 01:10:07 PM »

Offline dlpin

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 842
  • Tommy Points: 183
The team could trade Ray and take say $10mil in long term salary, and $8mil in expiring or soon-to-expire contracts -- and gain some financial flexibility that way. For example, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

The team does not need to take 100% long term money back in a Ray Allen trade.

No team is going to dump anyone of value in order to save 8 to 10 million in long term contracts.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2009, 01:14:03 PM »

Online Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 53410
  • Tommy Points: 2578
The team could trade Ray and take say $10mil in long term salary, and $8mil in expiring or soon-to-expire contracts -- and gain some financial flexibility that way. For example, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

The team does not need to take 100% long term money back in a Ray Allen trade.

No team is going to dump anyone of value in order to save 8 to 10 million in long term contracts.
Sure they will

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #79 on: May 18, 2009, 01:14:48 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
The team could trade Ray and take say $10mil in long term salary, and $8mil in expiring or soon-to-expire contracts -- and gain some financial flexibility that way. For example, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

The team does not need to take 100% long term money back in a Ray Allen trade.

No team is going to dump anyone of value in order to save 8 to 10 million in long term contracts.
The Spurs dumped Luis Scola to the Rockets for a 2nd round pick because they couldn't work his salary into their plans to stay under the luxury tax. He's very much a quality player and is paid less than 8 to 10 million. Teams will do silly things to avoid the tax.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2009, 01:21:42 PM »

Offline dlpin

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 842
  • Tommy Points: 183
The team could trade Ray and take say $10mil in long term salary, and $8mil in expiring or soon-to-expire contracts -- and gain some financial flexibility that way. For example, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

The team does not need to take 100% long term money back in a Ray Allen trade.

No team is going to dump anyone of value in order to save 8 to 10 million in long term contracts.
The Spurs dumped Luis Scola to the Rockets for a 2nd round pick because they couldn't work his salary into their plans to stay under the luxury tax. He's very much a quality player and is paid less than 8 to 10 million. Teams will do silly things to avoid the tax.

So you'd be ok with trading Ray Allen for a player of Scola's caliber?

I mean, doesn't that line of argument essentially guarantees that we'd get less than fair value for Ray Allen? No team would ever give us fair value back. Pretty much any other team would be able to provide 8 million dollars worth of cap relief, so we'd never get fair value for Ray back.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #81 on: May 18, 2009, 01:26:05 PM »

Online Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 53410
  • Tommy Points: 2578
The issue of trading Ray Allen, at least for me, isn't solely about next season. It's about the next 4-5 seasons.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #82 on: May 18, 2009, 01:27:54 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
The hard thing is, there is no right answer to this question. People refuse to acknowledge that no matter how well you plan, you can't guarantee a title. You can just put your team in the best position to do so. Odds are, no matter what the Celtics do, they will not win a title. So if the C's keep Allen and don't win it all, was that the right choice? If they trade Allen and don't win, does that mean it was the wrong choice? who knows, odds are that the celtics will not win a title next year.


Additionally, when Allen was on the Sonics, a lot of people (experts and fans) thought that he couldn't win a title. Outside of Boston, people thought that Pierce couldn't win a title. there are probably a lot of players out there that we could have traded for instead of Ray and still won a title, but ray was available. our best players have already begun to decline, while the up and coming stars in the league are still improving. If there is a deal that makes us better, Ainge should be proactive and make the deal instead of waiting too long. Players dont' stay the same forever. Players in their thirties decline, and it may behoove ainge to stay ahead of the 8 ball.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #83 on: May 18, 2009, 01:28:50 PM »

Offline crownsy

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8469
  • Tommy Points: 157
The team could trade Ray and take say $10mil in long term salary, and $8mil in expiring or soon-to-expire contracts -- and gain some financial flexibility that way. For example, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

The team does not need to take 100% long term money back in a Ray Allen trade.

No team is going to dump anyone of value in order to save 8 to 10 million in long term contracts.
The Spurs dumped Luis Scola to the Rockets for a 2nd round pick because they couldn't work his salary into their plans to stay under the luxury tax. He's very much a quality player and is paid less than 8 to 10 million. Teams will do silly things to avoid the tax.

So you'd be ok with trading Ray Allen for a player of Scola's caliber?

I mean, doesn't that line of argument essentially guarantees that we'd get less than fair value for Ray Allen? No team would ever give us fair value back. Pretty much any other team would be able to provide 8 million dollars worth of cap relief, so we'd never get fair value for Ray back.

no i wouldn't, but i'm not the team owner, so i don't have to match millions of dollars i'm already paying to pay the luxary tax at a 2-1 clip.

That was his point, not that it would be a fantastic trade, but that teams do that sort of thing all the time once over the cap, to have salary flex in later years and save the owners mult million dollar tax fees.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #84 on: May 18, 2009, 01:29:32 PM »

Offline Fafnir

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30863
  • Tommy Points: 1330
The team could trade Ray and take say $10mil in long term salary, and $8mil in expiring or soon-to-expire contracts -- and gain some financial flexibility that way. For example, Josh Howard and Jerry Stackhouse.

The team does not need to take 100% long term money back in a Ray Allen trade.

No team is going to dump anyone of value in order to save 8 to 10 million in long term contracts.
The Spurs dumped Luis Scola to the Rockets for a 2nd round pick because they couldn't work his salary into their plans to stay under the luxury tax. He's very much a quality player and is paid less than 8 to 10 million. Teams will do silly things to avoid the tax.

So you'd be ok with trading Ray Allen for a player of Scola's caliber?

I mean, doesn't that line of argument essentially guarantees that we'd get less than fair value for Ray Allen? No team would ever give us fair value back. Pretty much any other team would be able to provide 8 million dollars worth of cap relief, so we'd never get fair value for Ray back.
The Spurs gave up Scola for tax relief for just a second round pick. I'm not proposing that we'd just get Scola or anything like that. It was an example to show that teams will give up more talent than they get back to avoid the dreaded luxury tax.

In possible Ray trade scenarios we'd be giving Ray, who would provide more cap relief and be great player to boot. That combination is of great value to many teams around the league, we could certainly get a better deal than a single rotation player. The amount of teams that can offer a quality player and cap relief is limited.

Allen Iverson got the Nuggets Chauncey Billups and Antonio McDyess. There could be a similar deal to be had for Ray out there. We could potentially get two younger pieces that will help extend this team's window of contention.

Will we get an offer good enough to pull the trigger? I seriously doubt it. I think in the end we'll play out next year and let Ray's contract expire. But to say that we couldn't get anyone of value for Ray is foolish.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #85 on: May 18, 2009, 01:41:51 PM »

Offline dlpin

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 842
  • Tommy Points: 183
The issue of trading Ray Allen, at least for me, isn't solely about next season. It's about the next 4-5 seasons.

Yes, and how do the celtics retain financial flexibility while getting back fair value for Ray Allen?

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #86 on: May 18, 2009, 01:45:07 PM »

Online Who

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 53410
  • Tommy Points: 2578
The issue of trading Ray Allen, at least for me, isn't solely about next season. It's about the next 4-5 seasons.

Yes, and how do the celtics retain financial flexibility while getting back fair value for Ray Allen?
I already answered that -- one long term contract (say $10-12mil) and one contract that expires (say $6-8mil).

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2009, 01:46:48 PM »

Offline Brendan

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2990
  • Tommy Points: 72
Doesn't it really depend on what he'll take for an extension to? I mean let's say DA looks at RA and figures he has 2/3 borderline All Star years and another 2/3 really good shooter role player years, for a total of 4-6 years left where he's a real contributor to the team and their quest for a championship. (Now if DA thinks Ray has one year left, maybe two the rest is moot, but why not let him play out the last year and leave - that's usually the cheepest way.)

So DA says 4 years left, I own next year at 20. "Ray will sign a 3 year extension at 8 per?" If Ray says yes, should they do it? (I don't know if that's allowed under current cap rules or not.) And if there is going to be a lock out next year and ownership expects to have either a no-cap year or a year with very owner friendly provisions, wouldn't that be a big deal to?


Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2009, 01:49:38 PM »

Offline dlpin

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 842
  • Tommy Points: 183

Will we get an offer good enough to pull the trigger? I seriously doubt it. I think in the end we'll play out next year and let Ray's contract expire. But to say that we couldn't get anyone of value for Ray is foolish.

I never said we couldn't get anyone of value for Ray. I said we would never get anyone of similar value for Ray.

He gives both an all star presence and a reducing salary to make it easier to resign Rondo.

If we trade him for 18 million dollars of long contracts, we might get talented players, but we give up any financial flexibility and I find it hard to believe that after seeing the Posey negotiation, that adding such massive contracts for such a long time would not have an impact on resigning Rondo.

Any other scenarios make even less sense. Let's talk about the recently mentioned 1 good player + 1 expiring contract deal: if Dallas is even remotely interested in salary relief, why would they include an expiring deal themselves in such a trade? Wouldn't it be easier to simply trade Josh Howard straight up for any other multitude of expiring deals, and then have that deal plus Stackhouse?

The fact is, you can play with the trade machine all day long and you won't come up with a realistic trade where we get fair value. You won't get anything like an all star PLUS financial flexibility that we get with Allen.

The only way Allen is traded is if he is completely unreasonable in his request for an extension.

Re: Has Ray Allen played his last game as a Celtic?
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2009, 01:52:54 PM »

Offline dlpin

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 842
  • Tommy Points: 183
The issue of trading Ray Allen, at least for me, isn't solely about next season. It's about the next 4-5 seasons.

Yes, and how do the celtics retain financial flexibility while getting back fair value for Ray Allen?
I already answered that -- one long term contract (say $10-12mil) and one contract that expires (say $6-8mil).



And in that case, wouldn't it make more sense for the team looking to do this to trade the 10-12 mill long term deal (which, by the way, is probably going to be around what Ray Allen gets for an extension) to simply trade that 10-12 mill contract for an expiring 10-12 million dollar contract, as opposed to including an expiring deal themselves in the mix?

And then, wouldn't any of the myriad of teams with 10-12 million dollars expiring contracts also be able to offer theirs if the player being mentioned is a talent anywhere the level of a Ray Allen?

That would be shooting ourselves in the foot, trading an 18 million dollar expiring contract for what a 10-12 million dollar expiring contract would get.