Author Topic: Tony Allen  (Read 10953 times)

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Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2009, 11:49:07 AM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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Well, if we end up facing Philly in the first round, you guys better get used to seeing TA out there.  He's a much better match-up against the Philly lineup than Eddie House...

Great game by TA last night: 8 for 14 from the field, took his shots in the flow of the offense for the most part, ran the court, passed the ball extremely well (5 assists), got in the passing lanes (3 steals), had a block than led to a fast break bucket.  His hustle led to lots of easy buckets and his ability to penetrate and dish was extremely helpful on a night where Rondo was playing uncharacteristically sluggish. 
Folly. Persist.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2009, 11:53:07 AM »

Offline GaBerkowitz

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agreed i thought Tony's reckless attacking of the hoop was exactly what we needed last night.

Also I thought Marbury played extremely well last night.  His ability to break down backup PG's and get open looks for teammates seems to be a recurring theme and is quite nice to see.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2009, 11:54:27 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Also, and I really would like other's opinion, is his defense not over rated? I watched him get beaten on many occations last night. AI blew around him a few times. I just wondering if anyones elses thinks he's not the great man on man defend he's given credit for.

His defense is absolutely overrated.  He has the ability to be a great defender, but he has way too many mental lapses. 

I would put him in the same category as Rondo.  They are both defensive playmakers, who have the ability to change the game with defensive plays, but are not true shut down defenders, and can be beaten if you know how.
Who is a shut down defender at the PG position? I understand people's critiques of Rondo, but I really don't see anyone better at the PG position with regards to defense in the league.

At least not for a starter, some bench guys who only get 10 or so minutes and will use 4/5 fouls pretty quick might be "better" for a short time period.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2009, 12:10:36 PM »

Offline Chris

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Also, and I really would like other's opinion, is his defense not over rated? I watched him get beaten on many occations last night. AI blew around him a few times. I just wondering if anyones elses thinks he's not the great man on man defend he's given credit for.

His defense is absolutely overrated.  He has the ability to be a great defender, but he has way too many mental lapses. 

I would put him in the same category as Rondo.  They are both defensive playmakers, who have the ability to change the game with defensive plays, but are not true shut down defenders, and can be beaten if you know how.
Who is a shut down defender at the PG position? I understand people's critiques of Rondo, but I really don't see anyone better at the PG position with regards to defense in the league.

At least not for a starter, some bench guys who only get 10 or so minutes and will use 4/5 fouls pretty quick might be "better" for a short time period.

You're right, there aren't many shutdown defenders at the PG spot.  But that doesn't mean Rondo isn't overrated as a defender.

Of course I also think Dwight Howard is an overrated defender, who is often out of position, but because he puts up crazy block and rebound numbers, he is suddenly the DPY.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2009, 12:14:02 PM »

Offline cordobes

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I'm happy Tony Allen is back - I've said multiple times we wouldn't have a realistic chance to win it all without him: the House/Marbury combo as the only backcourt backup is too limited in terms of defence and rebounding. Allen is going to be very useful.

That said:

1 - Reliability is probably the most underrated aspect of winning basketball.

2 - Shot-creation from players like Tony Allen is the most overrated aspect of winning basketball. You can't win with guys like Tony Allen (or, say, Jannero Pargo or even Corey Maggette) being shot-creators. They're too mediocre and flawed in other aspects of the game that are much more needed from role-players.

3 - Whatever happens, once again Tony Allen failed to deliver what his fans (whose fanaticism and fundamentalism is almost scary) were expecting. He is what he is: an injury prone, erratic player, who has yet to show remarkable improvements and a perennial 8th man in the NBA. Looking for an upgrade over him should be a priority this off-season.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2009, 12:17:57 PM »

Offline moiso

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There aren't many shutdown defenders at any spot in the nba.  Rondo and Howard are well above average defenders compared with other players in the league.  Gambling or not, Rondo makes an impact.  Is there any point guard in the league that can consistently stay between the offensive guy and the rim?  No.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2009, 12:22:39 PM »

Offline Chris

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Looking for an upgrade over him should be a priority this off-season.

I wish they could do that, but unless there is a trade out there, that allowed us to shed some salary (Allen and Scal being the main targets to get rid of), or a good vet is willing to take the minimum, they will likely be going forward with Allen and perhaps an expanded role for Walker next year.

With Allen and Walker in the fold, they have bigger holes to fill at backup PG, and potentially up front if Powe and/or Davis walk for more money.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2009, 12:35:39 PM »

Offline Chris

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There aren't many shutdown defenders at any spot in the nba.  Rondo and Howard are well above average defenders compared with other players in the league.  Gambling or not, Rondo makes an impact.  Is there any point guard in the league that can consistently stay between the offensive guy and the rim?  No.

Well, I would say that Rondo's ability to stay between his man and the rim is actually below average for an NBA PG.  He is able to get away with it sometimes because of his quick hands to slap the ball away from behind, and more often because he has a strong defense behind him, but for a guy as quick as Rondo is, he is terrible at staying in front of his guy.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2009, 12:41:18 PM »

Offline crownsy

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There aren't many shutdown defenders at any spot in the nba.  Rondo and Howard are well above average defenders compared with other players in the league.  Gambling or not, Rondo makes an impact.  Is there any point guard in the league that can consistently stay between the offensive guy and the rim?  No.

Well, I would say that Rondo's ability to stay between his man and the rim is actually below average for an NBA PG.  He is able to get away with it sometimes because of his quick hands to slap the ball away from behind, and more often because he has a strong defense behind him, but for a guy as quick as Rondo is, he is terrible at staying in front of his guy.

agree, though that brings up another question considering he was good at it rookie year.

Do you think he can't do it or he thinks he's just great at making that poke away steal so he goes for it thus letting his man go by?

Sometimes i think thats his problem, an overconfidence in what i precieve as a bad defensive habit.
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Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2009, 12:42:32 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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There aren't many shutdown defenders at any spot in the nba.  Rondo and Howard are well above average defenders compared with other players in the league.  Gambling or not, Rondo makes an impact.  Is there any point guard in the league that can consistently stay between the offensive guy and the rim?  No.

Well, I would say that Rondo's ability to stay between his man and the rim is actually below average for an NBA PG.  He is able to get away with it sometimes because of his quick hands to slap the ball away from behind, and more often because he has a strong defense behind him, but for a guy as quick as Rondo is, he is terrible at staying in front of his guy.

Hey Chris,

Have you ever considered that maybe the defense is designed that way?  Maybe it's Rondo's job to funnel his man into the help defense and once he's successfully funneled his man then he takes a chance at poking the ball away from behind? 

I know Doc gets on Rondo for taking too many chances, but I don't think the defense is designed for Rondo to always 'stay in front of his man,' making your statement that 'Rondo's ability to stay between his man and the rim is actually below average for an NBA PG' a moot point.

Folly. Persist.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2009, 12:44:22 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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One game, the 81st of the season, where Tony gets some run because of a suspension and actually puts up some points and the "Tony really adds something to this team" threads are back. When is the pro Tony crowd going to realize what cordobes already has said very well, that Tony is an injury prone, over rated defensively, extremely limited player that this team could use a major upgrade over.

This Celtics team will end up winning 62 games while having Tony Allen be a virtual non factor for the entire year and with other players losing considerable time to injury. I know the salaries don't match and the chances of getting him last season may or may not have been good, but imagine where this team would be if they had signed Roger Mason Jr., in Tony's position rather than Tony. If nothing else the bench would have had a consistent scoring punch and Paul and Ray would not be averaging 36.5 and 37.5 MPG.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2009, 12:49:00 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Also, and I really would like other's opinion, is his defense not over rated? I watched him get beaten on many occations last night. AI blew around him a few times. I just wondering if anyones elses thinks he's not the great man on man defend he's given credit for.

His defense is absolutely overrated.  He has the ability to be a great defender, but he has way too many mental lapses. 

I would put him in the same category as Rondo.  They are both defensive playmakers, who have the ability to change the game with defensive plays, but are not true shut down defenders, and can be beaten if you know how.
Who is a shut down defender at the PG position? I understand people's critiques of Rondo, but I really don't see anyone better at the PG position with regards to defense in the league.

At least not for a starter, some bench guys who only get 10 or so minutes and will use 4/5 fouls pretty quick might be "better" for a short time period.

You're right, there aren't many shutdown defenders at the PG spot.  But that doesn't mean Rondo isn't overrated as a defender.

Of course I also think Dwight Howard is an overrated defender, who is often out of position, but because he puts up crazy block and rebound numbers, he is suddenly the DPY.
But then he'd be the best defensive PG in the league if you can't name anyone better. I think that is as highly rated as you can get.

Is he? I don't know, I really don't watch enough of other teams to judge properly. But if he's not the best defensive PG starter, I think he's at worst top 3.

Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2009, 12:59:02 PM »

Offline ma11l

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We need a lot of things to break right for us in the playoffs to get another banner.  TA is at the top of that list in my opinion.  If he can play like he did last night consistently for a month I think we're going to be fine.
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Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2009, 12:59:10 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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One game, the 81st of the season, where Tony gets some run because of a suspension and actually puts up some points and the "Tony really adds something to this team" threads are back. When is the pro Tony crowd going to realize what cordobes already has said very well, that Tony is an injury prone, over rated defensively, extremely limited player that this team could use a major upgrade over.

This Celtics team will end up winning 62 games while having Tony Allen be a virtual non factor for the entire year and with other players losing considerable time to injury. I know the salaries don't match and the chances of getting him last season may or may not have been good, but imagine where this team would be if they had signed Roger Mason Jr., in Tony's position rather than Tony. If nothing else the bench would have had a consistent scoring punch and Paul and Ray would not be averaging 36.5 and 37.5 MPG.

Be fair, Nick.  TA hasn't been a virtual non-factor this season.  He's had another injury-prone season, interspersed with periods where he played well, despite being asked to play out of position and play the majority of his time with a terrible point guard.  

When healthy, he's been a contributor on both sides of the ball.  And now with Marbury in the fold, he can actually focus on doing the things he does best and not on being the defacto point guard on the 2nd team.  How many good looks did TA get last night that were the result of a nice pass from Marbury (or Rondo)?  Playing with a real point guard does wonders and it's no coincidence that the entire 2nd team as a whole began to play well once we had a real point guard out there running things.  TA's year in no different....

At the beginning of the season, I said TA would contribute if he was healthy and given a consistent role.  Unfortunately, neither have happened until these last couple weeks of the season.  Going forward, I expect him to play his most consistent ball of the year, teaming with Marbury and House to give Doc many options to go with on a night-to-night basis.  
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Re: Tony Allen
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2009, 01:20:20 PM »

Offline Chris

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There aren't many shutdown defenders at any spot in the nba.  Rondo and Howard are well above average defenders compared with other players in the league.  Gambling or not, Rondo makes an impact.  Is there any point guard in the league that can consistently stay between the offensive guy and the rim?  No.

Well, I would say that Rondo's ability to stay between his man and the rim is actually below average for an NBA PG.  He is able to get away with it sometimes because of his quick hands to slap the ball away from behind, and more often because he has a strong defense behind him, but for a guy as quick as Rondo is, he is terrible at staying in front of his guy.

Hey Chris,

Have you ever considered that maybe the defense is designed that way?  Maybe it's Rondo's job to funnel his man into the help defense and once he's successfully funneled his man then he takes a chance at poking the ball away from behind? 

I know Doc gets on Rondo for taking too many chances, but I don't think the defense is designed for Rondo to always 'stay in front of his man,' making your statement that 'Rondo's ability to stay between his man and the rim is actually below average for an NBA PG' a moot point.



I can tell you with almost complete certainty that is not how the defense is designed.  There is a difference between funneling your man to a help defender, and getting beat.  Rondo's been getting beat.

Rondo reaches when he gets beat.  He has picked up some bad habits over the years, and although he has the ability to break down and stay in front of his man, he does not do it consistently, and instead relies on his quick hands and feet to try to make up for it, and often gets burned.


agree, though that brings up another question considering he was good at it rookie year.

Do you think he can't do it or he thinks he's just great at making that poke away steal so he goes for it thus letting his man go by?

Sometimes i think thats his problem, an overconfidence in what i precieve as a bad defensive habit.

Oh, I think he absolutely is capable, because he has played tremendous defense in spurts.  I just think he has gotten into some terrible habits.  You can clearly see a difference in his defensive stance when he is being aggressive and breaking down, versus when he is just standing on his heels.