Moore: good defender and shot blocker?

[winsomme]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

PJ was a mean mean son of a gun back in the 90's when he was with the Heat. By the time we got him he was a shell of what he used to be, but a younger PJ would have had Gasol on the ground crying same goes for that punk Farmar.

maybe he couldn't have handled a ton of minutes last year, but the minutes he was in there, there was absolutely no shift in favor of the other team.

he totally held water last year.

now, will Moore do the same...that's what we are going to have to find out.

[Scalablob990]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

PJ was a mean mean son of a gun back in the 90's when he was with the Heat. By the time we got him he was a shell of what he used to be, but a younger PJ would have had Gasol on the ground crying same goes for that punk Farmar.

maybe he couldn't have handled a ton of minutes last year, but the minutes he was in there, there was absolutely no shift in favor of the other team.

he totally held water last year.

now, will Moore do the same...that's what we are going to have to find out.

Oh no doubt, PJ paid his due's in the playoffs for the last time in his career, and he went out in a great way.

[BballTim]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

PJ was a mean mean son of a gun back in the 90's when he was with the Heat. By the time we got him he was a shell of what he used to be, but a younger PJ would have had Gasol on the ground crying same goes for that punk Farmar.

maybe he couldn't have handled a ton of minutes last year, but the minutes he was in there, there was absolutely no shift in favor of the other team.

he totally held water last year.

  In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

[winsomme]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

PJ was a mean mean son of a gun back in the 90's when he was with the Heat. By the time we got him he was a shell of what he used to be, but a younger PJ would have had Gasol on the ground crying same goes for that punk Farmar.

maybe he couldn't have handled a ton of minutes last year, but the minutes he was in there, there was absolutely no shift in favor of the other team.

he totally held water last year.

  In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

i was talking about toughness.

you've long been making this argument about PJ, Bball. The contribution of PJ in the playoffs last year is roundly acknowledged by NBA people not only around here, but nationally.

plus the entire organization pushed to get him back again this year....that's a lot of love for a player if he didn't have a positive impact on the team's ability to win.

[BballTim]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

PJ was a mean mean son of a gun back in the 90's when he was with the Heat. By the time we got him he was a shell of what he used to be, but a younger PJ would have had Gasol on the ground crying same goes for that punk Farmar.

maybe he couldn't have handled a ton of minutes last year, but the minutes he was in there, there was absolutely no shift in favor of the other team.

he totally held water last year.

  In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

i was talking about toughness.

you've long been making this argument about PJ, Bball. The contribution of PJ in the playoffs last year is roundly acknowledged by NBA people not only around here, but nationally.

plus the entire organization pushed to get him back again this year....that's a lot of love for a player if he didn't have a positive impact on the team's ability to win.

  If it makes you feel any better he was probably less of a negative impact than BBD...

  I wasn't opposed to bringing him back, but you've got to understand that A) he had some good moments but wasn't great last year and B) he's getting older and there's no guarantee that we'd get as much from him this year, just like his play declined from 06-07 to 07-08.

[Sweet17]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender.

Hardly "ridicously bad" - and as a defender he fits our system.

Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres,

KG isn't that great against bigger centers in the post. That doesn't mitigate his strengths. Doc can scheme around that with one bulky player (Perkins, BBD) and one help defender (KG, Moore)

good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

Perhaps. But your missing how he excels at hitting J's If Doc has proven one trait over the course of his coaching career its that he knows how to get the most out of a jump shooting big. Fans hate this kind of player but Doc likes it.

The key to using bench players is minimizing their weaknesses and maximizing their strengths. Are you going to find a STRONG postional defender, good low post player, with excellent shot blocking, excellent rebounding and the ability to score from the outside in one player? Perhaps but not on the waiver wire.

Players like that are all-stars. Does Mikki Moore bring the kind of skill set that can help the C's? I believe he does. All our bench players have flaws most of them are more serious them Mikki's..

Pete

[pumpfake]

at age 33 mikki does not yet know how to rebound or play d. but perhaps ray and thibs can teach him within the next 2 months

[kozlodoev]

at age 33 mikki does not yet know how to rebound or play d.

And of course, the fact that he left Nebraska as the all-time leader in blocked shots, and has been named the NDBL defensive player of the year are just minor details, right?

[xmuscularghandix]

the classic line for him being here....

"you can't teach length."

no matter how much Cliff works on Leon and Baby, he doesn't have a drill that can make them 7 feet tall.

[cordobes]

And of course, the fact that he left Nebraska as the all-time leader in blocked shots, and has been named the NDBL defensive player of the year are just minor details, right?

Geez.. I had no idea this year we were going to play the NCAA tournament and the D-League playoffs.

Hardly "ridicously bad" - and as a defender he fits our system.

Not ridiculously bad, just extremely bad. He never averaged more than 1 blk per 36 minutes in his last 5 seasons. That's appalling for a 7 footer.

Why does he fit your system?

KG isn't that great against bigger centers in the post. That doesn't mitigate his strengths. Doc can scheme around that with one bulky player (Perkins, BBD) and one help defender (KG, Moore)

KG isn't that great compared to who? Anyway, I've been reading that Moore is a great fit because, unlike Smith, he's a true center, that will compete with BBD for minutes, etc. Now you're saying he has to be paired with a bigger player who can guard centers?

Perhaps. But your missing how he excels at hitting J's

"Perhaps" what? That his foul rate is terrible? What's exactly your doubt about it? Perhaps? It is.

He's a 40% jump-shooter who doesn't try more that a couple of open jumpers here and there. Let's not make him the second coming of Garnett.

All our bench players have flaws most of them are more serious them Mikki's..

Mikki is not better than our current backup bigs.

In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

Yeah, plus/minus without adjustment are absolutely misleading. Thanks for proving that once again.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

Yeah, but since when was PJ considered even a serviceable shot-blocker? PJ was a great low post 1on1 defender, one of the best in the league and an excellent rebounder, not a shot-blocker.

[cordobes]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

a good defender is not always a good shot blocker. and a good shot blocker is not always a good defender. take chris andersen for example. one would struggle to call him a good defender.

have you ever seen a guy come to boston and improve his defense? have you seriously been watching the guy play enough anytime recently to back up all this overstated analysis of his "acceptable position help defense"? better get over your bias against this guy, because he's a celtic now: you're going to have root for him being a "decent big" not against him.

I'm well aware that a good defender is not a good shot-blocker and vice-versa. I never stated that was the case, in fact I said the opposite many times, saying we didn't really needed a shot-blocker but someone who could defend and rebound. I was very opposed to signing Chris Andersen in the pre-season, precisely for those reasons.

The problem of Moore is that he's Chris Andersen without the rebounding and the shot-blocking.

Most importantly: I can root for guys who are flawed. If I wasn't able to do that, I would have stopped following the C's a long time ago, believe me.

I have no bias against Moore. I'm not 12 anymore to be that emotionally invested with basketball players. I've said multiple times it's better to sign Moore than nothing and I actually like him - and I somewhat appreciate players like Moore who, albeit not very talented, are hard-working guys who had to fight hard for everything they got in their career. That doesn't stop me from seeing the evident holes in his game. If people call Moore a shot-blocker or a rebounder, I'll say they're wrong. 

Unlike many here, I don't chance my opinion on a player because he signs with the C's (or because he leaves the C's). Sorry to break this for you, but the skill-set of a player doesn't change just because he rents a house in Boston. That is getting silly over here btw: I've already been accused of having a bias against POB for predicting he wouldn't end the season here due to his lack of NBA talent, a bias against Tony Allen for saying he's incredibly unreliable and inconsistent, a bias against Powe for saying he's a blackhole on offence who was far from being starting material, a bias against Rondo for saying his jumper wasn't "decent" or "just bellow average" but horrid, etc. etc. People need to lighten up and stop seeing any criticism of a Boston player like an expression of bias. If Moore had signed with the Lakers people would see him as another scrub who would barely be an improvement over Josh Powell and rightly so. He isn't better just because he signed here.
 

[Sweet17]

Not ridiculously bad, just extremely bad. He never averaged more than 1 blk per 36 minutes in his last 5 seasons. That's appalling for a 7 footer.

Mikki Moore is only 6'11" and as I pointed out he is a better shot blocker then our other backup bigs.

Why does he fit your system?

He fits the C's system because like KG he is a mobile help defender who can finish around the rim and hit some Js. Sorry but BBD, Powe and Scalabrine just can't play that role even if they have been elevated in the minds of their fans.

More importantly (and this is what your missing) objectively those guys are just as bad if not worse then Moore. You say Moore doesn't block shots well? he blocks them better then BBD. You say Moore can't shoot? He shoots better then Davis.

This is a bit like what was said about Eddie House. Yes he is a limited. he isn't an all-star but he can be useful. It's the same with Moore. For House he was useful in part because he can shoot but also because his main competition was the 80 year old Cassell and Gabe Pruitt.

Likewise Moore can help the C's because he is ALMOST 7' feet tall and can play some which is pretty useful on a team where our current 'backup' look shorter and sometimes play smaller then Paul Pierce.

This will all fade the first time Rondo throws some little dump off pass and Moore finishes with a dunk instead of some blown layup..

[cordobes]

Mikki Moore is only 6'11" and as I pointed out he is a better shot blocker then our other backup bigs.

Huh? And who would call our current backup bigs "shot-blockers"?

Frankly, I don't even think we need anymore shot-blocking; I'm just setting the record straight: Moore won't bring shot-blocking to the table.

Anyway, sorry to break the news for you: nowadays, 6'7'' Leon Powe is a better shot-blocker than the 33 years old Moore. Powe averages 1 blk per 36 minutes and a 2.2% blk rate; Moore has been averaging 0.7 blocks per 36 minutes and a 1.5% blk rate for his last 2 seasons. So, you may want to correct your statement.

More importantly (and this is what your missing) objectively those guys are just as bad if not worse then Moore. You say Moore doesn't block shots well? he blocks them better then BBD. You say Moore can't shoot? He shoots better then Davis.

Moore can't rebound or defend like those guys. He's not a better scorer than them. He's not a better rebounder. He's barely a better shot-blocker than BBD, but worse than Powe. He has a better jump-shooter than them, but he's a 41% shooter who takes ONE jump-shot every game.

I insist: it's better to have Moore than nothing. But, as usual, people have unreasonable expectations for players of this quality.

[winsomme]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

PJ was a mean mean son of a gun back in the 90's when he was with the Heat. By the time we got him he was a shell of what he used to be, but a younger PJ would have had Gasol on the ground crying same goes for that punk Farmar.

maybe he couldn't have handled a ton of minutes last year, but the minutes he was in there, there was absolutely no shift in favor of the other team.

he totally held water last year.

  In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

i was talking about toughness.

you've long been making this argument about PJ, Bball. The contribution of PJ in the playoffs last year is roundly acknowledged by NBA people not only around here, but nationally.

plus the entire organization pushed to get him back again this year....that's a lot of love for a player if he didn't have a positive impact on the team's ability to win.

  If it makes you feel any better he was probably less of a negative impact than BBD...

  I wasn't opposed to bringing him back, but you've got to understand that A) he had some good moments but wasn't great last year and B) he's getting older and there's no guarantee that we'd get as much from him this year, just like his play declined from 06-07 to 07-08.

It all depends on what you want out of the position.

To me, the most important quality that needs to be brought to the table out of a back up big in the playoffs is "toughness". It's not a momentary thing. and it's why most acknowledge the importance of PJ to the Cs in the playoffs last year.

Whether you or I wanted PJ back is irrelevant. The important question is if you don't get him back, will the player you replace him with deliver on that need.

Now, can Moore deliver on that need? Time will tell.

I certainly hope he does because I think it is important to winning a Title. Just like it was last year.

[cordobes]

This will all fade the first time Rondo throws some little dump off pass and Moore finishes with a dunk instead of some blown layup..

Oh, yeah, with this I agree: Moore is a player who hustles and dunks in the open court, so fans like you will love him. Pardon me for believing that rebounding and post defence are more important things on a backup big.