Moore: good defender and shot blocker?

[celticinorlando]

i disagreeabout marbury not having anything to prove. he will be a free agent next year and will want to prove he can play and play with a team

[the_Bird]

i disagreeabout marbury not having anything to prove. he will be a free agent next year and will want to prove he can play and play with a team

That can be good and that can be bad.

Good if he realizes teams will be willing to sign him if he's willing to be a good teammate, come off the bench, defer to the better players when he's on the court with them, do what the coaches ask, play defense, etc.

Bad if he thinks he gets a new contract by putting up 20 points per game (on 25 shots) and that he needs to dominate play rather than act as a facilitator when he's on the floor.  Bad if he thinks it's better for him to take a bad, contested three-pointer than to pass the ball to an open Eddie House. 

[winsomme]

There is no money and there are no impact players available! I take Mikki Moore over Robert Horry at this point in their careers.

There *is* money.  As of right now, though, you're correct: there are no impact players available.  Joe Smith may be bought out, and I would have waited another week.

I think people are disappointed because all along people defending the off-season were saying "but we'll supplement during the season!".  To date, we've replaced Posey, P.J. and Sam with Mikki Moore.

The thing about that one is...Moore has been statistically superior to the version of PJ Brown we had last year - including his rebounding rate - so I think that his superior mobility, energy, and face-up shot are going to be well-utilized in this team system - remember, Ray and Paul were never known as defenders and neither were as efficient as they are now - changing systems matters.

Secondly, Moore was pretty solid defensively a couple years ago in NJ. I don't think he's slipped that far, I just think that the situation in Sac-Town wasn't conducive to Moore playing his best ball - he's not KG, but give him some defensive support and I think he'll surprise some people.

Finally, we will find out quite soon whether or not Stephon Marbury is coming on board - if he does i think it is unquestionable that Ainge upgraded the roster from last season and was intelligent not to commit multiple years for marginal upgrades....if Marbs doesn't come back i fully expect Sam to be re-signed - I think that was actually a pre-arranged agreement.

I see a lot of bashing of Moore on this board but no willingness to take the situation in Sac-Town into account, nor factor in Moore's personality and how that may have impacted his performance in a losing environment.

If this Celtics team has shown us anything its that a player who will dedicate himself to the system can become more than the sum of his individual ability would suppose...Moore plays his ass off and has had very solid production in the not-so-distant past...

...that leads me to believe that the negativity displayed with this acquisition has much more to do with deflated expectations than it does Moore's probability to contribute...

the expectations are deflated for sure. I'm not bashing Moore. I just don't see how he is an upgrade over players that are already in the rotation.

the only way a guy can be an "impact player" is if he is deserving of minutes that are already going to someone else.

whose minutes deserve to be shortened at this point to get Moore PT?

I hear you, but I think you have to break the game into parts to understand his value.

Moore is a role player - one that the Lakers, Suns, Cavs, Spurs, and Nuggets all apparently valued to some degree.

What he brings is two main elements: face-up spot-shooting from 15-17 feet and length/mobility for the team defensive system.

We've all seen how much better this team plays when Davis and Scal are hitting face-up shots. It is an extension of the benefit KG brings with his range. the interior opens for more one-on-one post play and it improves driving lanes for the guards.

While Moore isn't an upgrade to Powe, Scal, or Davis across the board, he does have a few key strengths that make him a situational upgrade.

I also STRONGLY advice people to stop thinking of players as automaton-robots that produce soulless statistical efforts that are easily predictable.

We've seen and pay lip service so often to KG's intensity or Pierce's heart, yet when we start looking at a role player such as Moore, we boil him down simply to stats.

Moore has played effective statistical basketball in his recent past, so we know he CAN be good in that regard, or has been at some point at least.

What I see in Moore is not greatness, but a niche skill-set that can be a net impact for this team. I also see a player who has shown tremendous competitive intensity and a desire to contribute to winning basketball - I think the Celtics environment will bring out the best in him.

BFB, I hear what you are saying, and i certainly hope you are right.

but my feelings about Moore have very little to do with stats.

just look at PJ from last year. by just about every metric you would have to say that PJ was not much of a factor in our playoff run.

but we all know different. we all know that when PJ came in the game there was a negligible drop-off in maybe the most important category in the playoffs - "toughness".

he also made solid rotations on defense - a big key for the Cs especially. and he made big buckets.

It's all well and good for Moore to have the dimensions to fit the bill, but if he blows a couple of rotations or gets overpowered on the glass by Varejao for a couple of offensive rebounds to give CLE an extra possession or two....then he has been a huge letdown. especially when balanced against what we got out of that spot last year.

a lot of times in games in the playoffs, the battles of the heavyweights is a standstill and the outcome ends up turning on lesser matchups...

I completely agree - but if that's your concern then I don't think you should fear Moore's ability to fit the bill. He has the physical capabilities to play the part, but more improtant, he is a dedicated and intense performer.

He is definitely not lacking "toughness" even if he's lacking bulk. KG is very similar - he is not a great low-post defender in man situations against low post scorers, which is one of the main reasons he avoids playing against bangers as much as possible.

KG uses his length and quickness to defend down low as well as playing the odds and forcing his man to weak spots when possible. KG is a master at funneling his man to help as well.

I think Moore is intelligent and dedicated. In a limited role for this team I have little doubt that Moore will pick up what's asked of him and improve steadily as the season goes on. come playoff time, I  think he'll be very effective in the team defense.

...as for giving up offensive rebounds to Varajao - remember, PJ Brown, KG and company gave up quite a few...Varajao is pretty [dang] good at that, don't be too harsh...

again, I hope you're right. I would feel more comfortable with Smith or Horry filling those two roles (team defender and keeping CLE off the glass) but maybe Moore will do the job...

[BillfromBoston]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

while i'm not at the same level as you on Marbury, I'm in the same neighborhood. He never lived up to his skill level and mostly that was because he seemed to think that he was the show...

i think he did have some All-Star seasons, but they were never what they should or could have been....

my worry about him coming here is two-fold. One, I think our bench needs different skillsets than he brings to the table. and two, this is a role that he has never really filled.

has he ever shown the ability to be a guy that can come off the bench and not have the game become about what he is doing?

that said, as far as "impact player", he does have that ability IMO....ugh...just crossing my fingers on this whole deal at this point.

not sure what else there is to say about it.

I think i have to stop watching CLE games....

The thing that worries me about Marbury is that I still don't think he feels he has anything to prove.  I don't really get the sense that he wants to show that he's a winner and can help a team compete for a championship.  I don't even get the sense that he really even cares if he' plays basketball at all this year.

That is absolutely my biggest concern with him...he has always viewed everything within the context of how it serves him, so I don't expect a reversal of behavior.

However - his game has always been about him having the ball in his hands and/or factoring into the offense prominently.

I feel that Marbury's role here would be perfectly conducive to that ego. For 15 to as many as 20 minutes a night - depending on Rondo's effectiveness that evening - Marbury will get the chance to be "the man" and lead the bench unit as the main ball-handler.

This team already runs their offense through the PG, so his biggest adjustment will be in the minutes he plays with "the big 4" and balancing out his own offense with theirs.

But the incentive for him to do so is an extra 12-15 minutes a game. He's already filling the primary team need by giving them the back up PG minutes - minutes which he is allowed to "do his thang."

Its a BONUS to the team if he shows the intelligence and restraint necissary to earn those extra minutes at SG next to Rondo.

Marbury also is far more likely to respect the accomplishments of GPA and defer to their greatness - he did this during his Olympic stint, so I think its in there somewhere. His best NBA basketball was with the Suns,  where he also had the most star-level talent around him.

I definately have major concerns, but i'm of the believe that the situation he's being brought into is the most conducive to his success..

[BillfromBoston]

There is no money and there are no impact players available! I take Mikki Moore over Robert Horry at this point in their careers.

There *is* money.  As of right now, though, you're correct: there are no impact players available.  Joe Smith may be bought out, and I would have waited another week.

I think people are disappointed because all along people defending the off-season were saying "but we'll supplement during the season!".  To date, we've replaced Posey, P.J. and Sam with Mikki Moore.

The thing about that one is...Moore has been statistically superior to the version of PJ Brown we had last year - including his rebounding rate - so I think that his superior mobility, energy, and face-up shot are going to be well-utilized in this team system - remember, Ray and Paul were never known as defenders and neither were as efficient as they are now - changing systems matters.

Secondly, Moore was pretty solid defensively a couple years ago in NJ. I don't think he's slipped that far, I just think that the situation in Sac-Town wasn't conducive to Moore playing his best ball - he's not KG, but give him some defensive support and I think he'll surprise some people.

Finally, we will find out quite soon whether or not Stephon Marbury is coming on board - if he does i think it is unquestionable that Ainge upgraded the roster from last season and was intelligent not to commit multiple years for marginal upgrades....if Marbs doesn't come back i fully expect Sam to be re-signed - I think that was actually a pre-arranged agreement.

I see a lot of bashing of Moore on this board but no willingness to take the situation in Sac-Town into account, nor factor in Moore's personality and how that may have impacted his performance in a losing environment.

If this Celtics team has shown us anything its that a player who will dedicate himself to the system can become more than the sum of his individual ability would suppose...Moore plays his ass off and has had very solid production in the not-so-distant past...

...that leads me to believe that the negativity displayed with this acquisition has much more to do with deflated expectations than it does Moore's probability to contribute...

the expectations are deflated for sure. I'm not bashing Moore. I just don't see how he is an upgrade over players that are already in the rotation.

the only way a guy can be an "impact player" is if he is deserving of minutes that are already going to someone else.

whose minutes deserve to be shortened at this point to get Moore PT?

I hear you, but I think you have to break the game into parts to understand his value.

Moore is a role player - one that the Lakers, Suns, Cavs, Spurs, and Nuggets all apparently valued to some degree.

What he brings is two main elements: face-up spot-shooting from 15-17 feet and length/mobility for the team defensive system.

We've all seen how much better this team plays when Davis and Scal are hitting face-up shots. It is an extension of the benefit KG brings with his range. the interior opens for more one-on-one post play and it improves driving lanes for the guards.

While Moore isn't an upgrade to Powe, Scal, or Davis across the board, he does have a few key strengths that make him a situational upgrade.

I also STRONGLY advice people to stop thinking of players as automaton-robots that produce soulless statistical efforts that are easily predictable.

We've seen and pay lip service so often to KG's intensity or Pierce's heart, yet when we start looking at a role player such as Moore, we boil him down simply to stats.

Moore has played effective statistical basketball in his recent past, so we know he CAN be good in that regard, or has been at some point at least.

What I see in Moore is not greatness, but a niche skill-set that can be a net impact for this team. I also see a player who has shown tremendous competitive intensity and a desire to contribute to winning basketball - I think the Celtics environment will bring out the best in him.

BFB, I hear what you are saying, and i certainly hope you are right.

but my feelings about Moore have very little to do with stats.

just look at PJ from last year. by just about every metric you would have to say that PJ was not much of a factor in our playoff run.

but we all know different. we all know that when PJ came in the game there was a negligible drop-off in maybe the most important category in the playoffs - "toughness".

he also made solid rotations on defense - a big key for the Cs especially. and he made big buckets.

It's all well and good for Moore to have the dimensions to fit the bill, but if he blows a couple of rotations or gets overpowered on the glass by Varejao for a couple of offensive rebounds to give CLE an extra possession or two....then he has been a huge letdown. especially when balanced against what we got out of that spot last year.

a lot of times in games in the playoffs, the battles of the heavyweights is a standstill and the outcome ends up turning on lesser matchups...

I completely agree - but if that's your concern then I don't think you should fear Moore's ability to fit the bill. He has the physical capabilities to play the part, but more improtant, he is a dedicated and intense performer.

He is definitely not lacking "toughness" even if he's lacking bulk. KG is very similar - he is not a great low-post defender in man situations against low post scorers, which is one of the main reasons he avoids playing against bangers as much as possible.

KG uses his length and quickness to defend down low as well as playing the odds and forcing his man to weak spots when possible. KG is a master at funneling his man to help as well.

I think Moore is intelligent and dedicated. In a limited role for this team I have little doubt that Moore will pick up what's asked of him and improve steadily as the season goes on. come playoff time, I  think he'll be very effective in the team defense.

...as for giving up offensive rebounds to Varajao - remember, PJ Brown, KG and company gave up quite a few...Varajao is pretty [dang] good at that, don't be too harsh...

again, I hope you're right. I would feel more comfortable with Smith or Horry filling those two roles (team defender and keeping CLE off the glass) but maybe Moore will do the job...

Smith was certainly my preference - but I think Moore is a lot better than the "zero" many are making him out to be.

He isn't a sexy name, but he may give sexy results...

[Change]

Celtics fans are too picky. Look how much Powe & BBD improved just playing in this system, and Moore would benefit just as much or more cause of his height advantage. As long as he bring that energy sorta like to house.


Welcome to the celtics Mr. Moore

[2short]

I can't understand the hits Moore and even Ainge are taking.  Moore is a good pickup, an athletic LONG big with good enough foot speed to play in our defense.  (not easy for a big) Perk doesn't really have the speed to attack the high penetration but works at it and PJ worked to cover it but didn't all the time.  Yes kg rocks at it!
 
As for Ainge he didn't replace Posey without a doubt but he didn't pay too much for an older bench guy.  Sam is replaced and improved on with pruitt....does anyone think sam helped last year.  As I remember it he had 1 good game against san antonio than was killing us when on court AND complaining that he should have played more.  POB was a cheap chance that didn't work out but I still think with his offensive skill set he can play in the nba.  I equate pj being replaced (hopefully    ) with moore.  Than we have scal, ta and walker to make up for posey.    In the playoffs last year a reminder, posey couldn't stop lebron it was PP.
oh and again a vote of NO for marbury, i think a fight would break out in locker room

I don't see how Pruitt is an improvement over Sam. Sure, Pruitt can stick with people better on defense, but Pruitt is still underwhelming after a rather long time with the team. Jury is still out.

Your question is answered in your statement, pruitt can stick with people on defense.  Sam can no longer play nba defense.  He also slowed ball movement incredibly whenever he was in.  Jury is without a doubt still out on pruitt but I think sam the old man when here was no help at all.  pruitt has helped in bits, with confidence we'll see his shooting touch which is one of the better parts of his game.  I'm happy with him busting on d and not making turnovers.  Once playoffs come around if he gets 5 a night that is all we need.  Which means doc does have to give him some time so he's comfortable when in the game

[winsomme]

Smith was certainly my preference - but I think Moore is a lot better than the "zero" many are making him out to be.

He isn't a sexy name, but he may give sexy results...

It's not enough for him to be better than zero. it's all about results at this point.

[Change]

Celtics fans are too picky. Look how much Powe & BBD improved just playing in this system, and Moore would benefit just as much or more cause of his height advantage. As long as he bring that energy sorta like to house. Add Marbury C's probably repeat


Welcome to the celtics Mr. Moore

[winsomme]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

while i'm not at the same level as you on Marbury, I'm in the same neighborhood. He never lived up to his skill level and mostly that was because he seemed to think that he was the show...

i think he did have some All-Star seasons, but they were never what they should or could have been....

my worry about him coming here is two-fold. One, I think our bench needs different skillsets than he brings to the table. and two, this is a role that he has never really filled.

has he ever shown the ability to be a guy that can come off the bench and not have the game become about what he is doing?

that said, as far as "impact player", he does have that ability IMO....ugh...just crossing my fingers on this whole deal at this point.

not sure what else there is to say about it.

I think i have to stop watching CLE games....

The thing that worries me about Marbury is that I still don't think he feels he has anything to prove.  I don't really get the sense that he wants to show that he's a winner and can help a team compete for a championship.  I don't even get the sense that he really even cares if he' plays basketball at all this year.

That is absolutely my biggest concern with him...he has always viewed everything within the context of how it serves him, so I don't expect a reversal of behavior.

However - his game has always been about him having the ball in his hands and/or factoring into the offense prominently.

I feel that Marbury's role here would be perfectly conducive to that ego. For 15 to as many as 20 minutes a night - depending on Rondo's effectiveness that evening - Marbury will get the chance to be "the man" and lead the bench unit as the main ball-handler.

This team already runs their offense through the PG, so his biggest adjustment will be in the minutes he plays with "the big 4" and balancing out his own offense with theirs.

But the incentive for him to do so is an extra 12-15 minutes a game. He's already filling the primary team need by giving them the back up PG minutes - minutes which he is allowed to "do his thang."

Its a BONUS to the team if he shows the intelligence and restraint necissary to earn those extra minutes at SG next to Rondo.

Marbury also is far more likely to respect the accomplishments of GPA and defer to their greatness - he did this during his Olympic stint, so I think its in there somewhere. His best NBA basketball was with the Suns,  where he also had the most star-level talent around him.

I definately have major concerns, but i'm of the believe that the situation he's being brought into is the most conducive to his success..

my worry about Marbury is what happens when panic sets in?

just think about those ATL and CLE series when it looked like we could very well lose....

the reason we overcame is because we didn't panic and just kept playing our game.

this is certainly going to happen this off season. i see no way that we could cruise through series this year.

so what is Mar going to do under those circumstances? is he gonna stick with the system or is he going to try and be the hero?

he absolutely cannot go off script with this team.

[BillfromBoston]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

while i'm not at the same level as you on Marbury, I'm in the same neighborhood. He never lived up to his skill level and mostly that was because he seemed to think that he was the show...

i think he did have some All-Star seasons, but they were never what they should or could have been....

my worry about him coming here is two-fold. One, I think our bench needs different skillsets than he brings to the table. and two, this is a role that he has never really filled.

has he ever shown the ability to be a guy that can come off the bench and not have the game become about what he is doing?

that said, as far as "impact player", he does have that ability IMO....ugh...just crossing my fingers on this whole deal at this point.

not sure what else there is to say about it.

I think i have to stop watching CLE games....

The thing that worries me about Marbury is that I still don't think he feels he has anything to prove.  I don't really get the sense that he wants to show that he's a winner and can help a team compete for a championship.  I don't even get the sense that he really even cares if he' plays basketball at all this year.

That is absolutely my biggest concern with him...he has always viewed everything within the context of how it serves him, so I don't expect a reversal of behavior.

However - his game has always been about him having the ball in his hands and/or factoring into the offense prominently.

I feel that Marbury's role here would be perfectly conducive to that ego. For 15 to as many as 20 minutes a night - depending on Rondo's effectiveness that evening - Marbury will get the chance to be "the man" and lead the bench unit as the main ball-handler.

This team already runs their offense through the PG, so his biggest adjustment will be in the minutes he plays with "the big 4" and balancing out his own offense with theirs.

But the incentive for him to do so is an extra 12-15 minutes a game. He's already filling the primary team need by giving them the back up PG minutes - minutes which he is allowed to "do his thang."

Its a BONUS to the team if he shows the intelligence and restraint necissary to earn those extra minutes at SG next to Rondo.

Marbury also is far more likely to respect the accomplishments of GPA and defer to their greatness - he did this during his Olympic stint, so I think its in there somewhere. His best NBA basketball was with the Suns,  where he also had the most star-level talent around him.

I definately have major concerns, but i'm of the believe that the situation he's being brought into is the most conducive to his success..

my worry about Marbury is what happens when panic sets in?

just think about those ATL and CLE series when it looked like we could very well lose....

the reason we overcame is because we didn't panic and just kept playing our game.

this is certainly going to happen this off season. i see no way that we could cruise through series this year.

so what is Mar going to do under those circumstances? is he gonna stick with the system or is he going to try and be the hero?

he absolutely cannot go off script with this team.

I understand - but in those situations we are not dependent on Marbury to do so - we have the best starting 5 in the league...Marbury is a bonus - if he is every playing poorly he can be replaced in that game.

[guava_wrench]

I can't understand the hits Moore and even Ainge are taking.  Moore is a good pickup, an athletic LONG big with good enough foot speed to play in our defense.  (not easy for a big) Perk doesn't really have the speed to attack the high penetration but works at it and PJ worked to cover it but didn't all the time.  Yes kg rocks at it!
 
As for Ainge he didn't replace Posey without a doubt but he didn't pay too much for an older bench guy.  Sam is replaced and improved on with pruitt....does anyone think sam helped last year.  As I remember it he had 1 good game against san antonio than was killing us when on court AND complaining that he should have played more.  POB was a cheap chance that didn't work out but I still think with his offensive skill set he can play in the nba.  I equate pj being replaced (hopefully    ) with moore.  Than we have scal, ta and walker to make up for posey.    In the playoffs last year a reminder, posey couldn't stop lebron it was PP.
oh and again a vote of NO for marbury, i think a fight would break out in locker room

I don't see how Pruitt is an improvement over Sam. Sure, Pruitt can stick with people better on defense, but Pruitt is still underwhelming after a rather long time with the team. Jury is still out.

Your question is answered in your statement, pruitt can stick with people on defense.  Sam can no longer play nba defense.  He also slowed ball movement incredibly whenever he was in.  Jury is without a doubt still out on pruitt but I think sam the old man when here was no help at all.  pruitt has helped in bits, with confidence we'll see his shooting touch which is one of the better parts of his game.  I'm happy with him busting on d and not making turnovers.  Once playoffs come around if he gets 5 a night that is all we need.  Which means doc does have to give him some time so he's comfortable when in the game

Cassell wasn't brought in for defense, so my question was not answered in my statement. This is hypothetical anyway since we didn't get to see how Cassell would perform with a full year of practice in our system.

Nevertheless, there are games that Cassell won for us last year (San Antonio). Pruitt has yet to make a significant impact.

[crownsy]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

The man did average 8 assists a game as a starter along with his 20 points, thats pretty good for a "selfish, ball dominating PG" , and 20/8 is very good, and deserve's all star recognition no question.

I don't liek the man either, and i have serious questions about his current skill level, but dispite you and my personal dislike of him, he was an all star level PG in his day. He deserved those trips.

Do i want him here now? sure, we need a backup gaurd who can score on that second unit, otherwise ray and paul are going to play 40+ minutes a night, every night, until doc trusts JR and pruitt or TA gets back.

Do i want him here at anything other than the min for 4 months or so? nope.

[crownsy]

I can't understand the hits Moore and even Ainge are taking.  Moore is a good pickup, an athletic LONG big with good enough foot speed to play in our defense.  (not easy for a big) Perk doesn't really have the speed to attack the high penetration but works at it and PJ worked to cover it but didn't all the time.  Yes kg rocks at it!
 
As for Ainge he didn't replace Posey without a doubt but he didn't pay too much for an older bench guy.  Sam is replaced and improved on with pruitt....does anyone think sam helped last year.  As I remember it he had 1 good game against san antonio than was killing us when on court AND complaining that he should have played more.  POB was a cheap chance that didn't work out but I still think with his offensive skill set he can play in the nba.  I equate pj being replaced (hopefully    ) with moore.  Than we have scal, ta and walker to make up for posey.    In the playoffs last year a reminder, posey couldn't stop lebron it was PP.
oh and again a vote of NO for marbury, i think a fight would break out in locker room

I don't see how Pruitt is an improvement over Sam. Sure, Pruitt can stick with people better on defense, but Pruitt is still underwhelming after a rather long time with the team. Jury is still out.

Your question is answered in your statement, pruitt can stick with people on defense.  Sam can no longer play nba defense.  He also slowed ball movement incredibly whenever he was in.  Jury is without a doubt still out on pruitt but I think sam the old man when here was no help at all.  pruitt has helped in bits, with confidence we'll see his shooting touch which is one of the better parts of his game.  I'm happy with him busting on d and not making turnovers.  Once playoffs come around if he gets 5 a night that is all we need.  Which means doc does have to give him some time so he's comfortable when in the game

Cassell wasn't brought in for defense, so my question was not answered in my statement. This is hypothetical anyway since we didn't get to see how Cassell would perform with a full year of practice in our system.

Nevertheless, there are games that Cassell won for us last year (San Antonio). Pruitt has yet to make a significant impact.

Gabe delivers pretty much every time he's in defensivly, and contributes offensivly when he gets the chance to drive/ can the open shot (like last night). Its not his fault doc doesn't trust young players and overvalues vets when it comes to minutes.

tough to win a game when you get 4 minutes of actual time during competitive games while Doc plays paul and ray 40 minutes a night because none of his bench is vets.

This topic is running all around the team, but the way doc manages guys minutes with leads, specificly paul and ray, sometimes fustrates me. With a say a 12-15 point lead, you can sneak both of them out, just be ready to quick whistle if the other team goes 5-0 or some other small run.

I know he doesn't trust/ think the rookies can contribute on long stretchs, and he prefers to play guys long stretchs barring foul trouble, but some times with good leads he could sneak the young guys in for 5-10 minutes and doesn't.

I  like doc, think he's a good coach, but his timeout managment to sneak guys 4-6 minutes of game time/ rest is one of the only things that makes me go "come on man, you get seven!"

Seems like unless were up 20, doc doesn't feel like he has enough leeway to rest some guys and be quick with the TO if the other team makes a mini run.

[Fafnir]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

The man did average 8 assists a game as a starter along with his 20 points, thats pretty good for a "selfish, ball dominating PG" , and 20/8 is very good, and deserve's all star recognition no question.

I don't liek the man either, and i have serious questions about his current skill level, but dispite you and my personal dislike of him, he was an all star level PG in his day. He deserved those trips.

Do i want him here now? sure, we need a backup gaurd who can score on that second unit, otherwise ray and paul are going to play 40+ minutes a night, every night, until doc trusts JR and pruitt or TA gets back.

Do i want him here at anything other than the min for 4 months or so? nope.

Zach Randolph is averaging 20 and 10, is he an all-star? You can be a player with a negative effect on winning while still getting your "numbers".

Look at scoring without taking into account efficiency gives poor results. His 8 assists are impressive, but the other flaws in his game take a lot away from that.