Moore: good defender and shot blocker?

[winsomme]

here's one example of a significant play that doesn't show on the stat sheet:

The shot was the most notable of Brown's fourth-quarter plays, but his best came with less than 30 seconds to play, when James (45 points) drove to the basket looking to trim the lead to a point again and Brown, who had five fouls, stepped up and forced James into an airball.

"I'm just trying to slide my feet, man. Move them slow feet because LeBron was coming hard," said Brown. "He's a powerful player and he explodes to the goal when he drives, and I was just making sure that I didn't get a ticky-tack foul. I didn't want to send him to the line, and it turned out to be a good play."

[cordobes]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

  It never ceases to amaze me how some people come to the conclusion that they're the only objective people here.

TP4U

I'm sorry for the lack of objectiveness of saying things like "Moore is going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" or "he's not a good or even a decent shot-blocker".

[winsomme]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

  It never ceases to amaze me how some people come to the conclusion that they're the only objective people here.

isn't that basically what you are doing with PJ?

I mean, how many people actually don't think that PJ was big for us in the playoffs last year and instead was a below average performer?

[BballTim]

In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

Yeah, plus/minus without adjustment are absolutely misleading. Thanks for proving that once again.

  Then adjust it so it's not misleading. Show me numbers that say PJ was a good defender or a good rebounder in the playoffs or that he was even an average player for us.

the problem BBall is that your opinion that PJ was a below average player for us is largely contradicted by experts all over the country.

maybe you have the straight scoop here and everybody else is wrong. I actually hope you're right because then it shouldn't matter too much not having him back this year (or someone who brings to the table the qualities that i believe he did).

  The same "experts" that said the Lakers were going to kill us last year? Get real. He made a few key shots in a few key games. That's all people remember. If you can find anything at all in depth about his contribution or his overall play in the playoffs then I'd like to see them.

"going to kill us?" ummm, no. that was not what people thought. plus, there is a pretty big difference in making a prediction and analyzing something that actually happened.

  The consensus was Lakers in 5 or 6. So you're going to try and defend those predicted the Lakers would win?

  And a big difference between making predictions and analyzing something that actually happened is that it's easier to sound like you know what you're talking about when you're analyzing. Nobody knows what the stock market will do, but everyone can tell you why it did what it did.

[crownsy]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

  It never ceases to amaze me how some people come to the conclusion that they're the only objective people here.

TP4U

I'm sorry for the lack of objectiveness of saying things like "Moore is going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" or "he's not a good or even a decent shot-blocker".

right, because clearly i was thinking of only your statements when i gave Bball a TP for pointing something that runs rampant around the blog among multiple posters.

we have a core of about 5-15 posters (and im probley one of them) who are so sure of thier evals of players and also sure if you disagree with there assement your 100% wrong and dont knwo anything about that it gets annoying sometimes, i gave him a TP for pointing it out, thats all.

[winsomme]

In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

Yeah, plus/minus without adjustment are absolutely misleading. Thanks for proving that once again.

  Then adjust it so it's not misleading. Show me numbers that say PJ was a good defender or a good rebounder in the playoffs or that he was even an average player for us.

the problem BBall is that your opinion that PJ was a below average player for us is largely contradicted by experts all over the country.

maybe you have the straight scoop here and everybody else is wrong. I actually hope you're right because then it shouldn't matter too much not having him back this year (or someone who brings to the table the qualities that i believe he did).

  The same "experts" that said the Lakers were going to kill us last year? Get real. He made a few key shots in a few key games. That's all people remember. If you can find anything at all in depth about his contribution or his overall play in the playoffs then I'd like to see them.

"going to kill us?" ummm, no. that was not what people thought. plus, there is a pretty big difference in making a prediction and analyzing something that actually happened.

  The consensus was Lakers in 5 or 6. So you're going to try and defend those predicted the Lakers would win?

  And a big difference between making predictions and analyzing something that actually happened is that it's easier to sound like you know what you're talking about when you're analyzing. Nobody knows what the stock market will do, but everyone can tell you why it did what it did.

the difference in predicting something and an analyzing something that actually happened is you are discussing concrete events.

maybe everybody can tell you what happened in the stock market (ie it went down), but the expertise is in explaining why it happened.

we all know the Cs won the Title. But you are in the minority, it seems to me, in assessing the impact that PJ had in that eventuation.

[cordobes]

we have a core of about 5-15 posters (and im probley one of them) who are so sure of thier evals of players and also sure if you disagree with there assement your 100% wrong and dont knwo anything about that it gets annoying sometimes, i gave him a TP for pointing it out, thats all.

Here's the thing: some things are arguable when it comes to assess players. Some others aren't.

I was the one called biased for saying that Moore isn't a good shot-blocker. I presented evidence he doesn't even block as many shots as Powe, at least in the last 4 years of his career.

I won't say "well, maybe you have a point, perhaps I'm not being objective here" when someone tries to convince me that a 7footer who doesn't even get a block every 36 minutes is a good shot-blocker.

People can disagree with me, but in this case their assessment is 100% wrong. If it isn't, just explain why.

[Fafnir]

So much arguing over our 9th or 10th man. (might be farther back except for injuries)

I really hope to see him play soon, I want to see what all the fuss is about. Something about our backup big men leads to serious venom.

[BudweiserCeltic]

The problem winsomme, is that many are basing their opinion of PJ's contributions on a few plays that were quite big for us. Ignored and forgotten are the plenty of times that his age didn't allow him to rotate quickly enough. Forgotten is how Sheed had his way with him. Forgotten is how he had to often resort to fouling because he couldn't keep up with people. And these are just some simple observations that were quite frequent and consistent with what he did there while in the game, among the good things he did for us.

He was a smart player for us though, and quite consistent in what he did for us out there. But he was no miracle worker, he isn't some huge piece of the puzzle, he simply brought a bit of consistancy to a position that was anything but because of Powe and Davis. That was his biggest contribution for us last year. It wasn't his great defense, it wasn't his great midrange shooting touch, or anything like that... simply playing a bit consistent.

During the playoffs last year I was one of the first to suggest that we go with a 3-man big rotation of Garnett-Perk-Brown, so I'm not trying to put Brown down and not appreciate what he did for us last year. But I find it quite ridiculous that Brown was so big for us, that he leaves this huge hole in our rotation that is hard to substitute as many posters seem to suggest. Brown's contributions aren't hard to subsitute, regardless of how huge they became for us during the run last year.

[winsomme]

So much arguing over our 9th or 10th man. (might be farther back except for injuries)

I really hope to see him play soon, I want to see what all the fuss is about. Something about our backup big men leads to serious venom.

this is getting a bit excessive, but until we start playing, what else is there to talk about other than Mar and Moore?

[Fafnir]

So much arguing over our 9th or 10th man. (might be farther back except for injuries)

I really hope to see him play soon, I want to see what all the fuss is about. Something about our backup big men leads to serious venom.

this is getting a bit excessive, but until we start playing, what else is there to talk about other than Mar and Moore?

Perhaps:



Pudding, delicious pudding.

Seriously though Mikki Moore is an upgrade over POB. We'll have to see how much of an upgrade he is though. Stats wise he's been a poor enough player we shouldn't get our hopes up too much.

[winsomme]

The problem winsomme, is that many are basing their opinion of PJ's contributions on a few plays that were quite big for us. Ignored and forgotten are the plenty of times that his age didn't allow him to rotate quickly enough. Forgotten is how Sheed had his way with him. Forgotten is how he had to often resort to fouling because he couldn't keep up with people. And these are just some simple observations that were quite frequent and consistent with what he did there while in the game, among the good things he did for us.

He was a smart player for us though, and quite consistent in what he did for us out there. But he was no miracle worker, he isn't some huge piece of the puzzle, he simply brought a bit of consistancy to a position that was anything but because of Powe and Davis. That was his biggest contribution for us last year. It wasn't his great defense, it wasn't his great midrange shooting touch, or anything like that... simply playing a bit consistent.

During the playoffs last year I was one of the first to suggest that we go with a 3-man big rotation of Garnett-Perk-Brown, so I'm not trying to put Brown down and not appreciate what he did for us last year. But I find it quite ridiculous that Brown was so big for us, that he leaves this huge hole in our rotation that is hard to substitute as many posters seem to suggest. Brown's contributions aren't hard to subsitute, regardless of how huge they became for us during the run last year.

I would say that i am closer to your opinion than BBall's in regards to PJ.

I don't think that he was a "miracle worker," but i also don't think that the people who tout what he did for us last year are only looking at a few plays either.

and I'm not saying that he is irreplaceable. I'm just saying that he needs to be replaced.

Like i said, I think the biggest thing that PJ brought to us was "toughness," and for me, I have doubts that Moore can do that.

hopefully, I'm wrong. maybe Moore can bring that. or maybe that isn't even that important of a quality to have in PJs replacement.

I really don't know for sure. I'm just giving my feelings as of now.

[EJPLAYA]

we have a core of about 5-15 posters (and im probley one of them) who are so sure of thier evals of players and also sure if you disagree with there assement your 100% wrong and dont knwo anything about that it gets annoying sometimes, i gave him a TP for pointing it out, thats all.

Here's the thing: some things are arguable when it comes to assess players. Some others aren't.

I was the one called biased for saying that Moore isn't a good shot-blocker. I presented evidence he doesn't even block as many shots as Powe, at least in the last 4 years of his career.

I won't say "well, maybe you have a point, perhaps I'm not being objective here" when someone tries to convince me that a 7footer who doesn't even get a block every 36 minutes is a good shot-blocker.

People can disagree with me, but in this case their assessment is 100% wrong. If it isn't, just explain why.

Oh, people can still argue it! Look at the track record on here. I have stated for a year plus now that BBD is getting fatter and fatter and even posted pictures showing him at the draft to compare, but people deny it. You are right that there are some things that are fact and shouldn't be able to be argued, like Mikki not being a good shot blocker, but this is Celticsblog and there are those on here that will argue the sky isn't blue...

[drza44]

the problem BBall is that your opinion that PJ was a below average player for us is largely contradicted by experts all over the country.

maybe you have the straight scoop here and everybody else is wrong. I actually hope you're right because then it shouldn't matter too much not having him back this year (or someone who brings to the table the qualities that i believe he did).

anyway, just out of curiosity, as i'm not a huge stats guy, is there a source to check "opps PER" for the playoffs?

the gross +/- stat seems so dependent on the other players that it's hard to gauge individual performance off of that.

To answer your question, there is a source to check opponents PER for the playoffs.  Here is the link for the Celtics last playoffs: http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/0708BOS.HTM

That link points out that according to opponent's Production (a variation of PER) Brown was by FAR the worst player on the Celtics in last year's playoffs.  Opponent's PER isn't a very good stat, because it isn't very good at isolating good team defense from good individual defense.  But for Brown to be SO bad has some significance, even in a flawed measure.

Similarly, Brown and Baby were battling neck-and-neck for worst on-court/off-court +/- in the playoffs, far and away beyond the next worst Celtic (who, by the way, was Posey).  Again, there are flaws in any stat, and one of the misleading things here is that most of the time Brown/Baby were in the game in place of KG (just like Posey was often in in place of Pierce), so of course the team would generally be better with them off the court since that generally corresponds with the times that the 2 best players were on the court.  On the other hand, the fact that Brown was so much worse than Powe (who also got quite a few minutes with similar teammates) is another indication to me that on the whole he wasn't as effective as his reputation suggests.

As Budweiser pointed out, many (both here and in the media) are making their judgments on Brown's effectiveness based upon a few of his highlight plays that stood out and not as much upon the less spectacular areas where he frankly wasn't what he used to be.  Brown had the vet mindset and toughness to be effective in certain key times when I wouldn't have trusted Powe or Baby, but I think his value would have been less this year on a team where everyone has championship experience after having been through several postseason wars.

Instead, this year where the big man rotation lacks is that there just wasn't enough length and diversity.  Powe and Baby are both essentially 6-7/6-8 power forwards that are good rebounders and nifty offensive players in the paint.  And that is effective against many teams, when used in conjunction with the other team strengths.  But against certain teams, or when Garnett is unavailable, neither Powe or Baby could perform the needed functions.  They absolutely aren't long enough to effectively face a Lakers team where everyone is 6-10, long and athletic.  They absolutely can't shoot well enough to spread the floor against good teams when KG isn't available, which led directly to the recent Lakers/Jazz losses once KG was gone and Pierce kept driving/kicking to Baby who couldn't knock down the shots.

This year, Moore's skillsets are IMO more needed than Brown's.  He really is a mobile, hustle help defender.  He really can knock down a jumper when left wide open.  In the times I've seen him (mostly against KG), he really has shown the toughness to not back down and to perform under pressure.  Simmons uses the term "homeless man's" to describe a much worse facsimile of a player...well, whatever the step below homeless man is, that's what Moore is to Garnett.  He's a blind homeless man's version of Garnett, able to perform at a 9th-man level some of the things that Garnett does at a superstar level...and really, our bench needed that.  I would have preferred Joe Smith (who has the same positives, but more-so), but I definitely think Moore gives our bench something that it lacked and helps seal up the glaring need this team had for another capable big man.

[winsomme]

the problem BBall is that your opinion that PJ was a below average player for us is largely contradicted by experts all over the country.

maybe you have the straight scoop here and everybody else is wrong. I actually hope you're right because then it shouldn't matter too much not having him back this year (or someone who brings to the table the qualities that i believe he did).

anyway, just out of curiosity, as i'm not a huge stats guy, is there a source to check "opps PER" for the playoffs?

the gross +/- stat seems so dependent on the other players that it's hard to gauge individual performance off of that.

To answer your question, there is a source to check opponents PER for the playoffs.  Here is the link for the Celtics last playoffs: http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/0708BOS.HTM

That link points out that according to opponent's Production (a variation of PER) Brown was by FAR the worst player on the Celtics in last year's playoffs.  Opponent's PER isn't a very good stat, because it isn't very good at isolating good team defense from good individual defense.  But for Brown to be SO bad has some significance, even in a flawed measure.

Similarly, Brown and Baby were battling neck-and-neck for worst on-court/off-court +/- in the playoffs, far and away beyond the next worst Celtic (who, by the way, was Posey).  Again, there are flaws in any stat, and one of the misleading things here is that most of the time Brown/Baby were in the game in place of KG (just like Posey was often in in place of Pierce), so of course the team would generally be better with them off the court since that generally corresponds with the times that the 2 best players were on the court.  On the other hand, the fact that Brown was so much worse than Powe (who also got quite a few minutes with similar teammates) is another indication to me that on the whole he wasn't as effective as his reputation suggests.

As Budweiser pointed out, many (both here and in the media) are making their judgments on Brown's effectiveness based upon a few of his highlight plays that stood out and not as much upon the less spectacular areas where he frankly wasn't what he used to be.  Brown had the vet mindset and toughness to be effective in certain key times when I wouldn't have trusted Powe or Baby, but I think his value would have been less this year on a team where everyone has championship experience after having been through several postseason wars.

Instead, this year where the big man rotation lacks is that there just wasn't enough length and diversity.  Powe and Baby are both essentially 6-7/6-8 power forwards that are good rebounders and nifty offensive players in the paint.  And that is effective against many teams, when used in conjunction with the other team strengths.  But against certain teams, or when Garnett is unavailable, neither Powe or Baby could perform the needed functions.  They absolutely aren't long enough to effectively face a Lakers team where everyone is 6-10, long and athletic.  They absolutely can't shoot well enough to spread the floor against good teams when KG isn't available, which led directly to the recent Lakers/Jazz losses once KG was gone and Pierce kept driving/kicking to Baby who couldn't knock down the shots.

This year, Moore's skillsets are IMO more needed than Brown's.  He really is a mobile, hustle help defender.  He really can knock down a jumper when left wide open.  In the times I've seen him (mostly against KG), he really has shown the toughness to not back down and to perform under pressure.  Simmons uses the term "homeless man's" to describe a much worse facsimile of a player...well, whatever the step below homeless man is, that's what Moore is to Garnett.  He's a blind homeless man's version of Garnett, able to perform at a 9th-man level some of the things that Garnett does at a superstar level...and really, our bench needed that.  I would have preferred Joe Smith (who has the same positives, but more-so), but I definitely think Moore gives our bench something that it lacked and helps seal up the glaring need this team had for another capable big man.

well if you're right, drza, then we should be fine. I hope you are.

the difference i would say is that PJ was really the 7th man....and you are replacing a 7th man with a 9th man...

personally, i feel like players that don't play tough get exposed in the playoffs. Hopefully, Moore is up to the challenge.