Moore: good defender and shot blocker?

[ssspence]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

cool. then let this silly thread die. thank you.

[winsomme]

In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

Yeah, plus/minus without adjustment are absolutely misleading. Thanks for proving that once again.

  Then adjust it so it's not misleading. Show me numbers that say PJ was a good defender or a good rebounder in the playoffs or that he was even an average player for us.

the problem BBall is that your opinion that PJ was a below average player for us is largely contradicted by experts all over the country.

maybe you have the straight scoop here and everybody else is wrong. I actually hope you're right because then it shouldn't matter too much not having him back this year (or someone who brings to the table the qualities that i believe he did).

anyway, just out of curiosity, as i'm not a huge stats guy, is there a source to check "opps PER" for the playoffs?

the gross +/- stat seems so dependent on the other players that it's hard to gauge individual performance off of that.

I remember we went through this years ago with DWest. It was often used against him, if i remember correctly.

[Sweet17]

Anyway, sorry to break the news for you: nowadays, 6'7'' Leon Powe is a better shot-blocker than the 33 years old Moore. Powe averages 1 blk per 36 minutes and a 2.2% blk rate; Moore has been averaging 0.7 blocks per 36 minutes and a 1.5% blk rate for his last 2 seasons. So, you may want to correct your statement.

I suppose we can play this game. But Moore has the better career numbers. I think Moore is the better shot blocker. I don't think you can extrapolate his numbers from some craptastic Sacramento team..to our team. Systems do effect players.

[winsomme]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

cool. then let this silly thread die. thank you.

hey! I resemble that remark! (anyone know where that's from?)

anyway, I obviously don't think the thread is silly because i started it.

I am willing to acknowledge that Moore could work out, but i certainly think it is fair to ask whether or not he is going to be able to deliver what PJ brought to us last year - as that is who he is really replacing.

[kozlodoev]

And of course, the fact that he left Nebraska as the all-time leader in blocked shots, and has been named the NDBL defensive player of the year are just minor details, right?

Geez.. I had no idea this year we were going to play the NCAA tournament and the D-League playoffs.

It might be a good idea to check what I was actually replying to, before you pull my words out of context. Moore's credentials won't make Dwight Howard lose his sleep, but saying he's never been a good defender is a laughable and ignorant statement.

[BballTim]

In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

Yeah, plus/minus without adjustment are absolutely misleading. Thanks for proving that once again.

  Then adjust it so it's not misleading. Show me numbers that say PJ was a good defender or a good rebounder in the playoffs or that he was even an average player for us.

the problem BBall is that your opinion that PJ was a below average player for us is largely contradicted by experts all over the country.

maybe you have the straight scoop here and everybody else is wrong. I actually hope you're right because then it shouldn't matter too much not having him back this year (or someone who brings to the table the qualities that i believe he did).

  The same "experts" that said the Lakers were going to kill us last year? Get real. He made a few key shots in a few key games. That's all people remember. If you can find anything at all in depth about his contribution or his overall play in the playoffs then I'd like to see them.

[Sweet17]

Oh, yeah, with this I agree: Moore is a player who hustles and dunks in the open court, so fans like you will love him. Pardon me for believing that rebounding and post defence are more important things on a backup big.  

Aww. Well I hate to tell you KG isn't the best post defender in the NBA at his position. Mikki Moore brings something to the table. Just because you don't fancy his skill set doesn't mean he cannot help us..

He is what he is. We could have picked up a scrub like Sene if we wanted post defense and rebounding. I'd rather have a guy who can play.. Mikki Moore isn't all that and a bag of chips..but with Stephon and the second unit he can get up and down the court and finish around the rim. Play some annoying (to the other team) hustle D - hit some Js.

Your theory that all bigs should be good rebounders and post defenders is simple minded. Good coaches emphasize what a guy CAN do - and minimize what he can't. Would I want Mikki Moore anchoring my post D on some weak rebounding team? Hell no. But we don't have that team..

It's the same thing with Scalabrine. He plays PF but he is a bad post defender, a terrible rebounder and shot blocker. But nonetheless we have people clamoring for what he brings to the table.

All our bench players are flawed. I feel the skillset that Moore brings is comparable to any of our bench bigs. Perhaps I will change my mind as maybe he really did slip in Sacramento. But the NJ Moore would absolutely help us.

Pete
 

[BballTim]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

  It never ceases to amaze me how some people come to the conclusion that they're the only objective people here.

[winsomme]

In the playoffs we were +191 with PJ on the bench and -55 with PJ playing.

Yeah, plus/minus without adjustment are absolutely misleading. Thanks for proving that once again.

  Then adjust it so it's not misleading. Show me numbers that say PJ was a good defender or a good rebounder in the playoffs or that he was even an average player for us.

the problem BBall is that your opinion that PJ was a below average player for us is largely contradicted by experts all over the country.

maybe you have the straight scoop here and everybody else is wrong. I actually hope you're right because then it shouldn't matter too much not having him back this year (or someone who brings to the table the qualities that i believe he did).

  The same "experts" that said the Lakers were going to kill us last year? Get real. He made a few key shots in a few key games. That's all people remember. If you can find anything at all in depth about his contribution or his overall play in the playoffs then I'd like to see them.

"going to kill us?" ummm, no. that was not what people thought. plus, there is a pretty big difference in making a prediction and analyzing something that actually happened.

would you at least acknowledge that you are in the minority on this opinion you have of PJ?

[cordobes]

Anyway, sorry to break the news for you: nowadays, 6'7'' Leon Powe is a better shot-blocker than the 33 years old Moore. Powe averages 1 blk per 36 minutes and a 2.2% blk rate; Moore has been averaging 0.7 blocks per 36 minutes and a 1.5% blk rate for his last 2 seasons. So, you may want to correct your statement.

I suppose we can play this game. But Moore has the better career numbers. I think Moore is the better shot blocker. I don't think you can extrapolate his numbers from some craptastic Sacramento team..to our team. Systems do effect players.

Moore averaged 1 block per 36 minutes in New Jersey and 0.9 when he was in Seattle. He's a 1.1 blks career average vs. 0.9 for Powe.

And Powe is not a good shot-blocker.

[cordobes]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

cool. then let this silly thread die. thank you.

Why? Because you can't understand how can anyone say Moore is not a good shot-blocker, or rebounder, or defender now that he signed with Boston? Stop reading it if it bothers you so much.

[winsomme]

I'll just add this to the PJ-file:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2008/05/19/brown_big_down_the_stretch/

the fact is that Brown added "toughness." whether or not it can be documented in the stat sheet is largely irrelevant.

unless, just about everybody around the NBA is incapable of analyzing a players impact to a team, then PJ's contributions should not be in dispute.

[cordobes]

Oh, yeah, with this I agree: Moore is a player who hustles and dunks in the open court, so fans like you will love him. Pardon me for believing that rebounding and post defence are more important things on a backup big.  

Aww. Well I hate to tell you KG isn't the best post defender in the NBA at his position. Mikki Moore brings something to the table. Just because you don't fancy his skill set doesn't mean he cannot help us..

He is what he is. We could have picked up a scrub like Sene if we wanted post defense and rebounding. I'd rather have a guy who can play.. Mikki Moore isn't all that and a bag of chips..but with Stephon and the second unit he can get up and down the court and finish around the rim. Play some annoying (to the other team) hustle D - hit some Js.

Your theory that all bigs should be good rebounders and post defenders is simple minded. Good coaches emphasize what a guy CAN do - and minimize what he can't. Would I want Mikki Moore anchoring my post D on some weak rebounding team? Hell no. But we don't have that team..

It's the same thing with Scalabrine. He plays PF but he is a bad post defender, a terrible rebounder and shot blocker. But nonetheless we have people clamoring for what he brings to the table.

All our bench players are flawed. I feel the skillset that Moore brings is comparable to any of our bench bigs. Perhaps I will change my mind as maybe he really did slip in Sacramento. But the NJ Moore would absolutely help us.

Pete
 

I never said KG was the best post defender in the NBA at his position. I mean, I didn't even suggest something near that... that makes your first sentence truly amusing.

It's not that I don't "fancy" his skill-set. The difference is that some people (not saying you) are mislead about his skill-set (the idea that he's a shot-blocker is hilarious) and that I don't think his skill-set was such a big need for us.  

I never said all bigs should be good rebounders and post defenders. You do have a problem understanding what I was saying, I guess...

[Donoghus]

Enough with the snide off the cuff remarks and chippiness.  Let's keep this discussion on topic without the potshots at each other.  

[crownsy]

put your money where your monuth is cordobas. pledge to c's blog that you will in fact turn of the TV every time moore comes in the game, not to be turned back on until grande and cornbread indicate he's been taken out by doc.

My english is not very good, but what part of "I appreciate players like Moore" and "he's going to be helpful because he adds some depth and offers a different dimension from the bigs we have" you didn't understand? He's replacing POB, for Christ sake. Moore is a legit NBA player, POB was never close to that.

Again, I'm not 12 years old anymore to be so emotionally invested into individual players or to believe every Celtics player is flawless. One day, you'll get this

  It never ceases to amaze me how some people come to the conclusion that they're the only objective people here.

TP4U