Moore: good defender and shot blocker?

[crownsy]

You really don't think Darko and Kwame had/have All Star level talent? They were busts as high picks but they were high picks for a reason. Dark is a reasonably skilled athletic 7 footer. He just never could put the whole game together, happens to very talented players.

Kwame never had the skill but he easily has the physical talent. He is/was an amazing athlete. Just not a good player.

Which season of Marbury's was he a top 2 or 3 point guard in a conference in your mind? I'm looking at his stats and I don't see it. He put up a lot of points but on a lot of shots.

Dude, you gotta drop this argument...Marbury made multiple All Star games and was an Olympian - he was clearly regarded highly enough to have thos credentials as well as become the highest paid player in the NBA at one point.

He has definite flaws - never because the winner or team leader that people expected from his talent, but don't confuse that with not being an elite-level performer...his underachieving was better than many star players best...

He was selected for the Olympics because of his name recognition, he got his name because he has a high scoring average. I'll drop my argument when you actually address my point with something other than All-Star/Olympic suggestions and how much money he makes. Neither make for a good argument.

To go through my thoughts are Marbury more completely. He scored a lot inefficiently, played poor defense, dominated the ball too much, and was a poor teammate through out his career. I don't think he was ever deserving of an all-star berth.

This is getting too OT though.

The man did average 8 assists a game as a starter along with his 20 points, thats pretty good for a "selfish, ball dominating PG" , and 20/8 is very good, and deserve's all star recognition no question.

I don't liek the man either, and i have serious questions about his current skill level, but dispite you and my personal dislike of him, he was an all star level PG in his day. He deserved those trips.

Do i want him here now? sure, we need a backup gaurd who can score on that second unit, otherwise ray and paul are going to play 40+ minutes a night, every night, until doc trusts JR and pruitt or TA gets back.

Do i want him here at anything other than the min for 4 months or so? nope.

Zach Randolph is averaging 20 and 10, is he an all-star? You can be a player with a negative effect on winning while still getting your "numbers".

Look at scoring without taking into account efficiency gives poor results. His 8 assists are impressive, but the other flaws in his game take a lot away from that.

I hear you faf, and some of that is true, and your entitled to your opnion of the "intangables", but it seems like nothing factual anyone brings up is going to sway you because you despise marbury, no matter what the actual play on the court dictates.

Which is fine, i don't like him either, but he WAS an all star player, talent and preformance wise back then, and hopefully if he gets bought out he can fill the giant void we have at the 6th man role with regardess to scoring and creating your own shot. if he cant, fine, cut him/ bench him.

[MVP]

Moore is at least a threat to block a shot with a block% around 2.3 (career) and that's better then any of our bench bigs now with POB being gone. For reference Perk is 5.1, KG 3.2.. Davis 1.4.

Moore is a lightweight hustle guy who can help us when paired with Perkins, BBD or Powe. Kinda a KG light.. Like KG he can finish around the rim but would get pushed around by a big strong center and such on the post. He might be a decent fit for this team as I think we can run similiar schemes to what we do now. (It was much the same for PJ Brown who could hit Js and play some D.)

I got to say there is a shocking amount of negativity on this board for a team that is 46-12. Mikki Moore is a nice addition as unlike POB he can actually play. It's an upgrade. If we get Starbury I still like our chances..

Pete

Totally agree with this post. The only problem that I have with Moore is that he doesn't really fit alongside KG as they are similar in the body types and their strengths/weaknesses (of course KG is much better). So Moore is a good guy to bring out there for the 10-12 minutes that KG is resting on the bench and he can do some of the things KG does better then our other bigs (jumper, athleticism, length). We should be fine as long as Perkins stays healthy and plays well.

[Fafnir]

I'm not unswayable. It'd probably take a breakdown of his usage, Ass/TO ratio, his eFG%, and how he compared to other PG/SGs during his two all-star seasons. Plus anything else I'm overlooking about his play. Who knows maybe in 2001 he actually defended, I don't really recall a ton about his play that year.

Those are the measures I'd use to get into depth on a PG, but I can't do all of that while I'm at work. Maybe when I get home  .

I have mixed feelings about adding him. He has been a terrible cancer everywhere he has gone, that bothers me.

[cordobes]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

[ssspence]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

a good defender is not always a good shot blocker. and a good shot blocker is not always a good defender. take chris andersen for example. one would struggle to call him a good defender.

have you ever seen a guy come to boston and improve his defense? have you seriously been watching the guy play enough anytime recently to back up all this overstated analysis of his "acceptable position help defense"? better get over your bias against this guy, because he's a celtic now: you're going to have root for him being a "decent big" not against him.

[Hoyo de Monterrey]

Zach Randolph is averaging 20 and 10, is he an all-star? You can be a player with a negative effect on winning while still getting your "numbers".

Look at scoring without taking into account efficiency gives poor results. His 8 assists are impressive, but the other flaws in his game take a lot away from that.

What would stop the Celtics from giving Marbury an incentive laden contract using a prorated assists figure instead of points? Would that negatively affect cap space enough to make it impossible for the Cs?

Maybe you play on Marbury's desire to get his $$ by putting an assist clause instead of a points one in his deal?

Just a thought.

[Roy Hobbs]

What would stop the Celtics from giving Marbury an incentive laden contract using a prorated assists figure instead of points? Would that negatively affect cap space enough to make it impossible for the Cs?

Maybe you play on Marbury's desire to get his $$ by putting an assist clause instead of a points one in his deal?

Just a thought.

See here regarding incentives.  Incentives are allowed, but they count against the salary cap (or salary cap exception, such as the MLE).  Also, "unlikely bonuses" -- i.e., incentives based upon statistics not in line with a player's career -- are limited to 25% of a player's annual salary.

[BballTim]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

[KG_ended_Bias]

If we were looking at Mikki Moore, we may as well had kept Patrick O'Bryant! Beacuse Mikki Moore is a older similar version to P.O.B. For goodness sake I dunked on him twice in 1 game in High School, And then did it again while playing for Utah State when we played Nebraska. Im only 6'4 to boot! He is SOFT, but does play with energy at times. Still weak would have rather waited for ANYTHING better than him.

[KG_ended_Bias]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

Fake Hustler states what I was trying to say perfectly when I said energy at times. We will be disappointed with him. Really shoulda just given P.O.B. a chance if this was the best we were going to do.

[Toine43]

If we were looking at Mikki Moore, we may as well had kept Patrick O'Bryant! Beacuse Mikki Moore is a older similar version to P.O.B. For goodness sake I dunked on him twice in 1 game in High School, And then did it again while playing for Utah State when we played Nebraska. Im only 6'4 to boot! He is SOFT, but does play with energy at times. Still weak would have rather waited for ANYTHING better than him.

You dunked on Mikki Moore? That's awesome.

[Toine43]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

While I understand what you mean when you say he's a fake hustler, I think you're using that phrase the wrong way. Being a fake hustler is basically pretending to try hard and give effort, and from all accounts Moore does try hard. He just isn't a very good defender.

[winsomme]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

[Scalablob990]

Ridiculously bad shot-blocker and a mediocre/bellow average defender. Inapt defending the low post, especially versus bigger centres, good transition defender, acceptable positional help defender - unfortunately he tempers these traits with an awful foul rate.

I'm at loss how can anyone consider Moore a shot-blocker. He's one of the worst 7ft shot-blockers in the entire history of the league. It's amazing how these myths are created: the guy is a 7ft who can run and leap, and plays with lots of energy and hustle, so people just assume he can bock shots and defend, because he fills the stereotype. It doesn't work like that though. He's somewhat of a "fake hustler" (to borrow JVG's expression), because he doesn't translate the effort to an impact on the game.

He's a decent 4th big, good 5th big.

  Just to compare, PJ's career average for blocks is barely better than Mikki's.

the big difference between Moore and PJ is toughness.

PJ was a mean mean son of a gun back in the 90's when he was with the Heat. By the time we got him he was a shell of what he used to be, but a younger PJ would have had Gasol on the ground crying same goes for that punk Farmar.

[Gomesfan]

Realgm link to Boston signs Moore...
http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/57521/20090224/celtics_sign_mikki_moore/