Anyone else think Scal should start when Perk is healthy.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I liked how he was used last night, though it might be more of a reflection of the Heat's small front court. He pretty much played PF throughout the entire time he was on the floor. It's questionable if this would work with bigger benches or teams, given that we don't have height in our bench, but Scal as a PF is a good tool to have.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

i can't believe this thread is this long. no **** way should scal start. he's had a few DECENT games where he has'nt hurt us. if scal is even getting steady minutes in the playoffs this year we're in trouble. this can't be serious.

Scali deserves steady minutes.  The team needs him to have steady minutes.  (not alot of minutes, just constant) 

[crownsy]

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

shooting, defense, and floor spacing.

[wdleehi]

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

i can't believe this thread is this long. no **** way should scal start. he's had a few DECENT games where he has'nt hurt us. if scal is even getting steady minutes in the playoffs this year we're in trouble. this can't be serious.

Scali deserves steady minutes.  The team needs him to have steady minutes.  (not alot of minutes, just constant) 

Did you see how well Scali has been playing?  Did you see the defensive job he was doing out there?  Did you see his ability to shoot?  

He played himself into the rotation.  He can (unlike Davis and Powe) play SF.  He can (unlike Davis and Powe) hit an open 3 pointer.  And he is a better team defender.  


Davis and Powe take minutes away from each other.  


And finally, in games where Scali plays 15+ minutes, the Celtics are 10-0.  

[celts55]

No, Scal should not start. In my opinion he shouldn't even be playing.

[crownsy]

No, Scal should not start. In my opinion he shouldn't even be playing.

reality seems to disagree with you.

I'm no "scal for 6th man!" or starter supporter, but if your just going to ignore the time he's put in over the last month, you have to have blinders on.

He's been a great defender off the bench at the 4, is spacing the floor (something our other 4's are incapable of doing, and thus they clog up the offense) and making life easier for the bench, and just playing solid ball in general.

I've been as criticle of scal as the next guy, but how can you not recognize the high level of work he's put in lately?

[WedmanIsMyHero]

I just looked at the quantitative evidence, and I am not sure it supports your claim.

Shooting:
-FG% for Powe is .519, Davis is .373, Scal is .413.  So Scal is better than Davis there, but Powe crushes him.  Now it is true that Scal has more range, but with Pierce, Allen, and Rondo on the floor with Scal, anytime he shoots outside it guarantees the C's will struggled to get rebounds.  Adjusted FG%, which takes 3 pointers into account, is closer, but Powe is still on top of Scal, .519 to .511.  Davis trails at .376
-Scals points-per-shot is 1.12, while Powe's is a whopping 1.60.  Davis lags again at 1.05.
-If you take their averages and project over 48 minutes, Scal actually has the *worst* points statistics of anyone on the Celtics, at 11.7.  Davis is next to last at 12.1, while Powe is at 20.7

So what is the shooting argument for Scal?  Moving on to defense. . .

Defense:
-Powe gets 4.1 rebounds a game, 2.3 of them defensive, while Davis gets 3.3, 2.0 of them defensive.  Scal gets 1.2 rebounds a game, 1.1 of them defensive.  And remember Scal gets put in at PF or C, which means it significantly weakens the C's ability to rebound in a relative sense
-Davis averages .6 steals a game, Powe .32, and Scal .5
-Powe averages .55 blocks a game, Davis .21, and Scal .29
-Scal does have fewer turnovers, at .3, compared to 1.1 for Powe and .7 for Davis.
-In terms of 48 minute averages, only Ray Allen is a worse rebounder than Scal.  That's right -- Rondo and Eddie House are both more efficient rebounders.

Therefore, what is the defense argument for Scal?

I'm not sure how to assess spacing.  What metric works for that?

However, it seems like the *data* suggests a significant edge for "not Scal" in terms of offense and defense.  You can argue the data does not "measure" Scal's real performance, but that's about as quantifiable as when we were told he had a "brain type" like Michael Jordan. . .

Anyways, so is there a way to build a case, by the numbers, for Scal?

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

shooting, defense, and floor spacing.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

And lets not forget that Powe's player efficiency rating, the best measure of overall productivity for a player, is 16.10.  Scal's is 6.85 (and Davis', to be fair, is 8.26).

So building an argument for Scal seems to require arguing that the numbers don't matter. . . . .

[wdleehi]

I just looked at the quantitative evidence, and I am not sure it supports your claim.

Shooting:
-FG% for Powe is .519, Davis is .373, Scal is .413.  So Scal is better than Davis there, but Powe crushes him.  Now it is true that Scal has more range, but with Pierce, Allen, and Rondo on the floor with Scal, anytime he shoots outside it guarantees the C's will struggled to get rebounds.  Adjusted FG%, which takes 3 pointers into account, is closer, but Powe is still on top of Scal, .519 to .511.  Davis trails at .376
-Scals points-per-shot is 1.12, while Powe's is a whopping 1.60.  Davis lags again at 1.05.
-If you take their averages and project over 48 minutes, Scal actually has the *worst* points statistics of anyone on the Celtics, at 11.7.  Davis is next to last at 12.1, while Powe is at 20.7

So what is the shooting argument for Scal?  Moving on to defense. . .

Defense:
-Powe gets 4.1 rebounds a game, 2.3 of them defensive, while Davis gets 3.3, 2.0 of them defensive.  Scal gets 1.2 rebounds a game, 1.1 of them defensive.  And remember Scal gets put in at PF or C, which means it significantly weakens the C's ability to rebound in a relative sense
-Davis averages .6 steals a game, Powe .32, and Scal .5
-Powe averages .55 blocks a game, Davis .21, and Scal .29
-Scal does have fewer turnovers, at .3, compared to 1.1 for Powe and .7 for Davis.
-In terms of 48 minute averages, only Ray Allen is a worse rebounder than Scal.  That's right -- Rondo and Eddie House are both more efficient rebounders.

Therefore, what is the defense argument for Scal?

I'm not sure how to assess spacing.  What metric works for that?

However, it seems like the *data* suggests a significant edge for "not Scal" in terms of offense and defense.  You can argue the data does not "measure" Scal's real performance, but that's about as quantifiable as when we were told he had a "brain type" like Michael Jordan. . .

Anyways, so is there a way to build a case, by the numbers, for Scal?

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

shooting, defense, and floor spacing.

I suggest you watch and see what Scali has been doing on the floor.  Team defense isn't about individual stats.  

Comparing shooting % of Powe (who plays inside) and Scali (who plays on the perimeter) doesn't work either.  Powe is going to have a higher % and is more likely to be fouled.


What is obvious is Scali provides something off the bench that neither Powe nor Davis do.  Powe and Davis on the other hand are similar.  They are taking minutes away from each other.

[wdleehi]

And lets not forget that Powe's player efficiency rating, the best measure of overall productivity for a player, is 16.10.  Scal's is 6.85 (and Davis', to be fair, is 8.26).

So building an argument for Scal seems to require arguing that the numbers don't matter. . . . .

Simple number.


10-0 when Scali plays 15 or more minutes this season.

[BudweiserCeltic]

And lets not forget that Powe's player efficiency rating, the best measure of overall productivity for a player, is 16.10.  Scal's is 6.85 (and Davis', to be fair, is 8.26).

So building an argument for Scal seems to require arguing that the numbers don't matter. . . . .

They don't without proper context, which somehow people that like to focus in some random stats here and there tend to ignore.

[crownsy]

I just looked at the quantitative evidence, and I am not sure it supports your claim.

Shooting:
-FG% for Powe is .519, Davis is .373, Scal is .413.  So Scal is better than Davis there, but Powe crushes him.  Now it is true that Scal has more range, but with Pierce, Allen, and Rondo on the floor with Scal, anytime he shoots outside it guarantees the C's will struggled to get rebounds.  Adjusted FG%, which takes 3 pointers into account, is closer, but Powe is still on top of Scal, .519 to .511.  Davis trails at .376
-Scals points-per-shot is 1.12, while Powe's is a whopping 1.60.  Davis lags again at 1.05.
-If you take their averages and project over 48 minutes, Scal actually has the *worst* points statistics of anyone on the Celtics, at 11.7.  Davis is next to last at 12.1, while Powe is at 20.7

So what is the shooting argument for Scal?  Moving on to defense. . .

Defense:
-Powe gets 4.1 rebounds a game, 2.3 of them defensive, while Davis gets 3.3, 2.0 of them defensive.  Scal gets 1.2 rebounds a game, 1.1 of them defensive.  And remember Scal gets put in at PF or C, which means it significantly weakens the C's ability to rebound in a relative sense
-Davis averages .6 steals a game, Powe .32, and Scal .5
-Powe averages .55 blocks a game, Davis .21, and Scal .29
-Scal does have fewer turnovers, at .3, compared to 1.1 for Powe and .7 for Davis.
-In terms of 48 minute averages, only Ray Allen is a worse rebounder than Scal.  That's right -- Rondo and Eddie House are both more efficient rebounders.

Therefore, what is the defense argument for Scal?

I'm not sure how to assess spacing.  What metric works for that?

However, it seems like the *data* suggests a significant edge for "not Scal" in terms of offense and defense.  You can argue the data does not "measure" Scal's real performance, but that's about as quantifiable as when we were told he had a "brain type" like Michael Jordan. . .

Anyways, so is there a way to build a case, by the numbers, for Scal?

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

shooting, defense, and floor spacing.

number one, we are talking about how well scal has played for the last two weeks, so including his season stats agaisnt players who have played alot more than him, and better on average, is misleading.


but, even goign past that, what you brought up doesn't address what me, bud, or wide were saying scal brings to this team at the 4 for limited minutes.

you understand that by spacing we mean pulling the defence to the three point line to open the lane up for rondo/pierce/TA right? how are powe and davis shooting from there?

your use of efg to try to "account for three pointers" is flawed, it includes points in the paint, something that has nothing to do with spacing, which is what we were saying he brings.

for defense, im sorry, he is a better team defender than powe or davis, and its not that close (espically with leon, baby is good). rebounds have little to do with team defense before the shot, which is what we were talking about when we were praising his D. also, scal tends to cover guy out farther than leon or baby does (doc plays him at the four against a shooter in the small lineup) and this is another spot where you've included season stats while we're talking about two weeks.

steals, as has been discussed in multiple threads, are a terrable defensive statstic. AI is among the league leaders, do you think he's a good defender? how about steve nash, who also gets a decent amount of steals?

No one is arguing scal should get 20 minutes a night at the PF and powe and davis can get benched, but honestly, if you can't see how well he's playing over the last 2 weeks, we will have to agree to disagree.

[celts55]

No, Scal should not start. In my opinion he shouldn't even be playing.

reality seems to disagree with you.

I'm no "scal for 6th man!" or starter supporter, but if your just going to ignore the time he's put in over the last month, you have to have blinders on.

He's been a great defender off the bench at the 4, is spacing the floor (something our other 4's are incapable of doing, and thus they clog up the offense) and making life easier for the bench, and just playing solid ball in general.
I've been as criticle of scal as the next guy, but how can you not recognize the high level of work he's put in lately?

See this is where I disagree with you. I don't think he's been great,or even good for that matter, off the bench. I think he has been okay when he's played with the starters. His defense when starting has been good, his offense which amounts to standing around and taking an open 3 has been not as good(look at his shooting percentage lately). His rebounding ans assists per game, are awful at best. Sorry, but how can you be 6'8 on the floor for 22 minutes and only get 1 rebound and no assists. I'm 5'9 and I would get more than 1 rebound in 22 minutes just by luck.

So that being said, I think he's at his best when he does start, but I can not see him starting on this team.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Saying the C's are X and 0 when Scal plays X minutes is not a great measure, since that could be due to variation in the performance of other players.

I agree Scal has been playing better over the last few weeks, but can't any of you imagine a situation where Scal gets overmatched by a team that happens to have more than one big player since he, you know, regresses to the mean, and Doc leaves him in way too long, costing the C's?

My point with the statistics is just -- I understand the spacing and other intangible arguments for Scal.  Is there a statistical argument for Scal?

I just looked at the quantitative evidence, and I am not sure it supports your claim.

Shooting:
-FG% for Powe is .519, Davis is .373, Scal is .413.  So Scal is better than Davis there, but Powe crushes him.  Now it is true that Scal has more range, but with Pierce, Allen, and Rondo on the floor with Scal, anytime he shoots outside it guarantees the C's will struggled to get rebounds.  Adjusted FG%, which takes 3 pointers into account, is closer, but Powe is still on top of Scal, .519 to .511.  Davis trails at .376
-Scals points-per-shot is 1.12, while Powe's is a whopping 1.60.  Davis lags again at 1.05.
-If you take their averages and project over 48 minutes, Scal actually has the *worst* points statistics of anyone on the Celtics, at 11.7.  Davis is next to last at 12.1, while Powe is at 20.7

So what is the shooting argument for Scal?  Moving on to defense. . .

Defense:
-Powe gets 4.1 rebounds a game, 2.3 of them defensive, while Davis gets 3.3, 2.0 of them defensive.  Scal gets 1.2 rebounds a game, 1.1 of them defensive.  And remember Scal gets put in at PF or C, which means it significantly weakens the C's ability to rebound in a relative sense
-Davis averages .6 steals a game, Powe .32, and Scal .5
-Powe averages .55 blocks a game, Davis .21, and Scal .29
-Scal does have fewer turnovers, at .3, compared to 1.1 for Powe and .7 for Davis.
-In terms of 48 minute averages, only Ray Allen is a worse rebounder than Scal.  That's right -- Rondo and Eddie House are both more efficient rebounders.

Therefore, what is the defense argument for Scal?

I'm not sure how to assess spacing.  What metric works for that?

However, it seems like the *data* suggests a significant edge for "not Scal" in terms of offense and defense.  You can argue the data does not "measure" Scal's real performance, but that's about as quantifiable as when we were told he had a "brain type" like Michael Jordan. . .

Anyways, so is there a way to build a case, by the numbers, for Scal?

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

shooting, defense, and floor spacing.

number one, we are talking about how well scal has played for the last two weeks, so including his season stats agaisnt players who have played alot more than him, and better on average, is misleading.


but, even goign past that, what you brought up doesn't address what me, bud, or wide were saying scal brings to this team at the 4 for limited minutes.

you understand that by spacing we mean pulling the defence to the three point line to open the lane up for rondo/pierce/TA right? how are powe and davis shooting from there?

your use of efg to try to "account for three pointers" is flawed, it includes points in the paint, something that has nothing to do with spacing, which is what we were saying he brings.

for defense, im sorry, he is a better team defender than powe or davis, and its not that close (espically with leon, baby is good). rebounds have little to do with team defense before the shot, which is what we were talking about when we were praising his D. also, scal tends to cover guy out farther than leon or baby does (doc plays him at the four against a shooter in the small lineup) and this is another spot where you've included season stats while we're talking about two weeks.

steals, as has been discussed in multiple threads, are a terrable defensive statstic. AI is among the league leaders, do you think he's a good defender? how about steve nash, who also gets a decent amount of steals?

No one is arguing scal should get 20 minutes a night at the PF and powe and davis can get benched, but honestly, if you can't see how well he's playing over the last 2 weeks, we will have to agree to disagree.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Would a good metric for the impact of spacing be the field goal percentage of OTHER Celtics players when Scal is on the court?  If he makes the team better via spacing, other players should get easier/better shots, which means they will score at a higher percentage.

Anyone know what that data looks like?

I just looked at the quantitative evidence, and I am not sure it supports your claim.

Shooting:
-FG% for Powe is .519, Davis is .373, Scal is .413.  So Scal is better than Davis there, but Powe crushes him.  Now it is true that Scal has more range, but with Pierce, Allen, and Rondo on the floor with Scal, anytime he shoots outside it guarantees the C's will struggled to get rebounds.  Adjusted FG%, which takes 3 pointers into account, is closer, but Powe is still on top of Scal, .519 to .511.  Davis trails at .376
-Scals points-per-shot is 1.12, while Powe's is a whopping 1.60.  Davis lags again at 1.05.
-If you take their averages and project over 48 minutes, Scal actually has the *worst* points statistics of anyone on the Celtics, at 11.7.  Davis is next to last at 12.1, while Powe is at 20.7

So what is the shooting argument for Scal?  Moving on to defense. . .

Defense:
-Powe gets 4.1 rebounds a game, 2.3 of them defensive, while Davis gets 3.3, 2.0 of them defensive.  Scal gets 1.2 rebounds a game, 1.1 of them defensive.  And remember Scal gets put in at PF or C, which means it significantly weakens the C's ability to rebound in a relative sense
-Davis averages .6 steals a game, Powe .32, and Scal .5
-Powe averages .55 blocks a game, Davis .21, and Scal .29
-Scal does have fewer turnovers, at .3, compared to 1.1 for Powe and .7 for Davis.
-In terms of 48 minute averages, only Ray Allen is a worse rebounder than Scal.  That's right -- Rondo and Eddie House are both more efficient rebounders.

Therefore, what is the defense argument for Scal?

I'm not sure how to assess spacing.  What metric works for that?

However, it seems like the *data* suggests a significant edge for "not Scal" in terms of offense and defense.  You can argue the data does not "measure" Scal's real performance, but that's about as quantifiable as when we were told he had a "brain type" like Michael Jordan. . .

Anyways, so is there a way to build a case, by the numbers, for Scal?

By what metrics does Scal out-perform Powe or Davis?

shooting, defense, and floor spacing.

number one, we are talking about how well scal has played for the last two weeks, so including his season stats agaisnt players who have played alot more than him, and better on average, is misleading.


but, even goign past that, what you brought up doesn't address what me, bud, or wide were saying scal brings to this team at the 4 for limited minutes.

you understand that by spacing we mean pulling the defence to the three point line to open the lane up for rondo/pierce/TA right? how are powe and davis shooting from there?

your use of efg to try to "account for three pointers" is flawed, it includes points in the paint, something that has nothing to do with spacing, which is what we were saying he brings.

for defense, im sorry, he is a better team defender than powe or davis, and its not that close (espically with leon, baby is good). rebounds have little to do with team defense before the shot, which is what we were talking about when we were praising his D. also, scal tends to cover guy out farther than leon or baby does (doc plays him at the four against a shooter in the small lineup) and this is another spot where you've included season stats while we're talking about two weeks.

steals, as has been discussed in multiple threads, are a terrable defensive statstic. AI is among the league leaders, do you think he's a good defender? how about steve nash, who also gets a decent amount of steals?

No one is arguing scal should get 20 minutes a night at the PF and powe and davis can get benched, but honestly, if you can't see how well he's playing over the last 2 weeks, we will have to agree to disagree.