You just saw the 2009 NBA Champions

[Carhole]

Just an aside to this topic. I would assume most if not all (age could be a factor) remember the "Boston Massacre" that was in the finals, after we swept LA in the regular season. How did that turn out for us?

Heart doesnt come and go, some times teams just play like garbage but great players and great teams can refocus and get the job done.

My larger concern is why Ray, PP and rondo seem to forget how to play basketball in cleveland. I know there was no KG but they all struggled mightly at the Q for a decent sample now. I know why PP does - Lebron is bigger stronger and faster, if his J isnt going and he isnt getting the advantage off the high screen he is going to be in for a long day, but Ray's shooting I would like to think would come around especially when he is guarded by a smaller player and Rondo's decision making shouldnt swing so wildly from the garden to cleveland

[celticinorlando]

i know this is a johnny come lately league but have cav fans forgotten giving up 52 points inside last time they were in boston? do they forget they were just beatdown in the same manner in orlando?  it happens....yes even to the johnny come lately cavs

[BballTim]

If we are 100% healthy then I'd agree that we are right there. We aren't as good as last year though. I sure haven't been jumping on and off the bandwagon though because I was am the OP from 4 months ago and have been concerned about our depth. Look at these positions as objectively as you can and tell me we are the best:

      Boston           CAVS              Lakers
PG - Rondo          Williams        Fisher    - us and the Cavs are slightly ahead of LA
SG - Allen             West              Kobe    - LA in a landslide
SF - Pierce             Lebron         ?            - Cavs by a pretty good margin
PF - KG                 Varaejo          Gasol   - Gasols has stats and health. KG is better though
C - Perk                Big Z              Bynum - Probably a wash

Key Backups: Bos - BBD, POWE, House, Marbury
                         Cle - Gibson, Wally, Wallace, Joe Smith
                         LA - Ariza, Walton, Farmar, Powell

If you are talking starters, then the only one that we are arguably better at is at PF. With him not being 100% then that gives the edge IMO to LA and Gasol. The 2 best players on that list are not Celtics. As far as benches go we are talented, but small. The size is what hurts us otherwise I would say we are the best of the group, however Cleveland does have 3 former all-stars and one heck of a shooter in Gibson.

This is my rationale behind my worry. I am not going to put on blinders and pretend we are better than we are.

  We're not playing both teams at once. Cleveland's clearly better than us at one spot and we're definitely better than them at 2 spots. Same with the Lakers, and that's if you don't consider us better at pf.

What is the second spot where Boston is definitely better?  I am just waiting for you to say PG

  I could say pg since it would make your day, but what's the point? I'd say it's pretty clear that Ray and KG are better than Delonte and AV.

[Chris]

If we are 100% healthy then I'd agree that we are right there. We aren't as good as last year though. I sure haven't been jumping on and off the bandwagon though because I was am the OP from 4 months ago and have been concerned about our depth. Look at these positions as objectively as you can and tell me we are the best:

      Boston           CAVS              Lakers
PG - Rondo          Williams        Fisher    - us and the Cavs are slightly ahead of LA
SG - Allen             West              Kobe    - LA in a landslide
SF - Pierce             Lebron         ?            - Cavs by a pretty good margin
PF - KG                 Varaejo          Gasol   - Gasols has stats and health. KG is better though
C - Perk                Big Z              Bynum - Probably a wash

Key Backups: Bos - BBD, POWE, House, Marbury
                         Cle - Gibson, Wally, Wallace, Joe Smith
                         LA - Ariza, Walton, Farmar, Powell

If you are talking starters, then the only one that we are arguably better at is at PF. With him not being 100% then that gives the edge IMO to LA and Gasol. The 2 best players on that list are not Celtics. As far as benches go we are talented, but small. The size is what hurts us otherwise I would say we are the best of the group, however Cleveland does have 3 former all-stars and one heck of a shooter in Gibson.

This is my rationale behind my worry. I am not going to put on blinders and pretend we are better than we are.

  We're not playing both teams at once. Cleveland's clearly better than us at one spot and we're definitely better than them at 2 spots. Same with the Lakers, and that's if you don't consider us better at pf.

What is the second spot where Boston is definitely better?  I am just waiting for you to say PG

  I could say pg since it would make your day, but what's the point? I'd say it's pretty clear that Ray and KG are better than Delonte and AV.

I agree.  I also think PG and C are pretty close to a wash.  Rondo and Perk bring very different things to the table than Williams and Z, but I think they both are just as valuable to their teams. 

To me, the difference in a 7 game series between the C's and Cavs (assuming KG and Powe are playing at at least 85-90%) will be the battle of the wings.  Will the combination of a 10 and 5 (Lebron and West) be better than the combination of an 8 and 7 (Pierce and Allen)?

These are two incredibly evenly matched teams when they are healthy, and it is going to be a hell of a matchup.  The C's are certainly the underdogs, since they cruised through too much of the season, and lost home court, but either team could come out on top of that series, depending on where the bounces go.

[winsomme]

If we are 100% healthy then I'd agree that we are right there. We aren't as good as last year though. I sure haven't been jumping on and off the bandwagon though because I was am the OP from 4 months ago and have been concerned about our depth. Look at these positions as objectively as you can and tell me we are the best:

      Boston           CAVS              Lakers
PG - Rondo          Williams        Fisher    - us and the Cavs are slightly ahead of LA
SG - Allen             West              Kobe    - LA in a landslide
SF - Pierce             Lebron         ?            - Cavs by a pretty good margin
PF - KG                 Varaejo          Gasol   - Gasols has stats and health. KG is better though
C - Perk                Big Z              Bynum - Probably a wash

Key Backups: Bos - BBD, POWE, House, Marbury
                         Cle - Gibson, Wally, Wallace, Joe Smith
                         LA - Ariza, Walton, Farmar, Powell

If you are talking starters, then the only one that we are arguably better at is at PF. With him not being 100% then that gives the edge IMO to LA and Gasol. The 2 best players on that list are not Celtics. As far as benches go we are talented, but small. The size is what hurts us otherwise I would say we are the best of the group, however Cleveland does have 3 former all-stars and one heck of a shooter in Gibson.

This is my rationale behind my worry. I am not going to put on blinders and pretend we are better than we are.

  We're not playing both teams at once. Cleveland's clearly better than us at one spot and we're definitely better than them at 2 spots. Same with the Lakers, and that's if you don't consider us better at pf.

What is the second spot where Boston is definitely better?  I am just waiting for you to say PG

  I could say pg since it would make your day, but what's the point? I'd say it's pretty clear that Ray and KG are better than Delonte and AV.

I agree.  I also think PG and C are pretty close to a wash.  Rondo and Perk bring very different things to the table than Williams and Z, but I think they both are just as valuable to their teams. 

To me, the difference in a 7 game series between the C's and Cavs (assuming KG and Powe are playing at at least 85-90%) will be the battle of the wings.  Will the combination of a 10 and 5 (Lebron and West) be better than the combination of an 8 and 7 (Pierce and Allen)?

These are two incredibly evenly matched teams when they are healthy, and it is going to be a hell of a matchup.  The C's are certainly the underdogs, since they cruised through too much of the season, and lost home court, but either team could come out on top of that series, depending on where the bounces go.

yeah, we are pretty evenly matched.

I think our strength against CLE is when we can get the game moving.

the one thing i worry about with CLE is their size advantage in the front court.

we really need Mikki to figure out how to be effective against them on the blocks because Varejao, Z and Wallace are just rebounding right over Baby (and do the same against Leon).

An element IMO that we need to exploit is the back door plays between Rondo and KG. That one play (or the threat of it) will either prevent or make CLE pay for over-rotating their bigs on Pierce's and Rondo's penetration.

also should open Ray up better. If you noticed yesterday, CLE was able to basically have someone stick on Ray every where he went.

KGs ability to finish at the rim means that Varejao won't be able to double off and then Delonte will have to be looking to rotate on penetration leading to more open looks  and better rhythm looks for Ray.

all in all, it should be a fascinating series if we both get there....

[MMacOH]

If we are 100% healthy then I'd agree that we are right there. We aren't as good as last year though. I sure haven't been jumping on and off the bandwagon though because I was am the OP from 4 months ago and have been concerned about our depth. Look at these positions as objectively as you can and tell me we are the best:

      Boston           CAVS              Lakers
PG - Rondo          Williams        Fisher    - us and the Cavs are slightly ahead of LA
SG - Allen             West              Kobe    - LA in a landslide
SF - Pierce             Lebron         ?            - Cavs by a pretty good margin
PF - KG                 Varaejo          Gasol   - Gasols has stats and health. KG is better though
C - Perk                Big Z              Bynum - Probably a wash

Key Backups: Bos - BBD, POWE, House, Marbury
                         Cle - Gibson, Wally, Wallace, Joe Smith
                         LA - Ariza, Walton, Farmar, Powell

If you are talking starters, then the only one that we are arguably better at is at PF. With him not being 100% then that gives the edge IMO to LA and Gasol. The 2 best players on that list are not Celtics. As far as benches go we are talented, but small. The size is what hurts us otherwise I would say we are the best of the group, however Cleveland does have 3 former all-stars and one heck of a shooter in Gibson.

This is my rationale behind my worry. I am not going to put on blinders and pretend we are better than we are.

  We're not playing both teams at once. Cleveland's clearly better than us at one spot and we're definitely better than them at 2 spots. Same with the Lakers, and that's if you don't consider us better at pf.

What is the second spot where Boston is definitely better?  I am just waiting for you to say PG

  I could say pg since it would make your day, but what's the point? I'd say it's pretty clear that Ray and KG are better than Delonte and AV.

What is your basis here?  Delonte competely shut Ray down yetesrday.  He plays better defense and fits his role perfectly.  Ray shoots 41% from 3, delonte shoots 40% from 3.  They are both close in rebounds and assists (delonte leads in assists, .7 more a game, Ray grabs .3 more rebounds a game).  Ray scores 7 more points a game, but he plays 3 more minutes a game and has taken 400 more shot than Delonte this year.  I am more than willing to take the much better defender.  Ray is not 'definitely' a better player and he definitely would not fit the role that the Cavs would need him to play.

[Chris]

If we are 100% healthy then I'd agree that we are right there. We aren't as good as last year though. I sure haven't been jumping on and off the bandwagon though because I was am the OP from 4 months ago and have been concerned about our depth. Look at these positions as objectively as you can and tell me we are the best:

      Boston           CAVS              Lakers
PG - Rondo          Williams        Fisher    - us and the Cavs are slightly ahead of LA
SG - Allen             West              Kobe    - LA in a landslide
SF - Pierce             Lebron         ?            - Cavs by a pretty good margin
PF - KG                 Varaejo          Gasol   - Gasols has stats and health. KG is better though
C - Perk                Big Z              Bynum - Probably a wash

Key Backups: Bos - BBD, POWE, House, Marbury
                         Cle - Gibson, Wally, Wallace, Joe Smith
                         LA - Ariza, Walton, Farmar, Powell

If you are talking starters, then the only one that we are arguably better at is at PF. With him not being 100% then that gives the edge IMO to LA and Gasol. The 2 best players on that list are not Celtics. As far as benches go we are talented, but small. The size is what hurts us otherwise I would say we are the best of the group, however Cleveland does have 3 former all-stars and one heck of a shooter in Gibson.

This is my rationale behind my worry. I am not going to put on blinders and pretend we are better than we are.

  We're not playing both teams at once. Cleveland's clearly better than us at one spot and we're definitely better than them at 2 spots. Same with the Lakers, and that's if you don't consider us better at pf.

What is the second spot where Boston is definitely better?  I am just waiting for you to say PG

  I could say pg since it would make your day, but what's the point? I'd say it's pretty clear that Ray and KG are better than Delonte and AV.

What is your basis here?  Delonte competely shut Ray down yetesrday.  He plays better defense and fits his role perfectly.  Ray shoots 41% from 3, delonte shoots 40% from 3.  They are both close in rebounds and assists (delonte leads in assists, .7 more a game, Ray grabs .3 more rebounds a game).  Ray scores 7 more points a game, but he plays 3 more minutes a game and has taken 400 more shot than Delonte this year.  I am more than willing to take the much better defender.  Ray is not 'definitely' a better player and he definitely would not fit the role that the Cavs would need him to play.

While Ray Allen is not Ron Artest, he has shown over the last couple of years that he is a slightly above average defender...which is the same with West.  While West can be a pain defensively, he also has some issues (particularly in staying on quicker defenders).

And to even compare Ray Allen and Delonte West tells me that you have not watched much of Allen play.  He is a FAR superior offensive player, despite the terrible game he had last night.

I won't argue the fact that Cleveland has done a good job of bottling him up the last two years (although it has much more to do with the team scheme of overplaying the passing lanes than Delonte West), but Ray is a FAR superior player.

[MMacOH]

Cleveland needs the quicker defender not the far superior offensive player.  Delonte's job is to play tough defense on the perimeter and spot up and hit 3s when they need him to.  He does that very well and for far less money than Ray (I think about 10 million a year less).  Think about what Boston could have with delonte and 10 million for free agents. 

Taking everything into consideration, Delonte is the much better player for the Cavs. 

[winsomme]

If we are 100% healthy then I'd agree that we are right there. We aren't as good as last year though. I sure haven't been jumping on and off the bandwagon though because I was am the OP from 4 months ago and have been concerned about our depth. Look at these positions as objectively as you can and tell me we are the best:

      Boston           CAVS              Lakers
PG - Rondo          Williams        Fisher    - us and the Cavs are slightly ahead of LA
SG - Allen             West              Kobe    - LA in a landslide
SF - Pierce             Lebron         ?            - Cavs by a pretty good margin
PF - KG                 Varaejo          Gasol   - Gasols has stats and health. KG is better though
C - Perk                Big Z              Bynum - Probably a wash

Key Backups: Bos - BBD, POWE, House, Marbury
                         Cle - Gibson, Wally, Wallace, Joe Smith
                         LA - Ariza, Walton, Farmar, Powell

If you are talking starters, then the only one that we are arguably better at is at PF. With him not being 100% then that gives the edge IMO to LA and Gasol. The 2 best players on that list are not Celtics. As far as benches go we are talented, but small. The size is what hurts us otherwise I would say we are the best of the group, however Cleveland does have 3 former all-stars and one heck of a shooter in Gibson.

This is my rationale behind my worry. I am not going to put on blinders and pretend we are better than we are.

  We're not playing both teams at once. Cleveland's clearly better than us at one spot and we're definitely better than them at 2 spots. Same with the Lakers, and that's if you don't consider us better at pf.

What is the second spot where Boston is definitely better?  I am just waiting for you to say PG

  I could say pg since it would make your day, but what's the point? I'd say it's pretty clear that Ray and KG are better than Delonte and AV.

What is your basis here?  Delonte competely shut Ray down yetesrday.  He plays better defense and fits his role perfectly.  Ray shoots 41% from 3, delonte shoots 40% from 3.  They are both close in rebounds and assists (delonte leads in assists, .7 more a game, Ray grabs .3 more rebounds a game).  Ray scores 7 more points a game, but he plays 3 more minutes a game and has taken 400 more shot than Delonte this year.  I am more than willing to take the much better defender.  Ray is not 'definitely' a better player and he definitely would not fit the role that the Cavs would need him to play.

you could make the same argument for Rondo being better than Mo Williams then...

Rondo is much better suited to what the Cs need of him.

the question being asked wasn't who better fit their team's scheme. it was who was the better player and clearly Ray is the better player....

[winsomme]

Cleveland needs the quicker defender not the far superior offensive player.  Delonte's job is to play tough defense on the perimeter and spot up and hit 3s when they need him to.  He does that very well and for far less money than Ray (I think about 10 million a year less).  Think about what Boston could have with delonte and 10 million for free agents. 

Taking everything into consideration, Delonte is the much better player for the Cavs. 

what does this have to do with anything?

We just won Title with this combo of Paul, KG and Ray....with Ray outplaying Kobe in the Finals and very deserving of MVP consideration.

I think Ray's value to the Cs is much more established than DWest's to the Cavs...if that is the question you want to be asking..

but again, that wasn't the question being asked.

[MMacOH]

I just don't get your clearly statement.  Project both of their stats out to 48 minues and Delonte beats Ray in every category except points.  There is much more to being a good player than scoring points.  

And honestly, I couldn't care less what happened last year.  You can't compare this year with last year.

we will just agree to disagree here which doesn't surprise me since I am a Cavs fan and you guys are Celtic fans.  No harm there

[Chris]

Cleveland needs the quicker defender not the far superior offensive player.  Delonte's job is to play tough defense on the perimeter and spot up and hit 3s when they need him to.  He does that very well and for far less money than Ray (I think about 10 million a year less).  Think about what Boston could have with delonte and 10 million for free agents. 

Taking everything into consideration, Delonte is the much better player for the Cavs. 

The NBA doesn't work that way.  There is a salary cap, that means whether Delonte is putting you 5 million over the cap, or Ray is putting you 20 million, you still are not using the extra money for free agents. 

And I don't know why we are talking about this anyways.  I thought the discussion was regarding the matchups in a series, not in building a team.  In a 7 game series, salaries are not significant, but what is significant is the difference in ability and production between Ray Allen and Delonte West.

[ManUp]

just to jump off topic for a sec here....are those not the worst rims in the NBA?

CLE has a big advantage playing on those rims for all their home games. but for a team coming in that doesn't play on them regularly, it seems like the reinforced steel rims we used to shoot on as kids. made that way so they would last through NE winters....

those things in CLE are brutal.

This is what we call an excuse.

The same excuses the Lakers used in the finals.

I hate having to make excuses because winners don't need them.

[Chris]

I just don't get your clearly statement.  Project both of their stats out to 48 minues and Delonte beats Ray in evenr category except points.  There is much more to being a good player than scoring points. 

we will just garee to disagree here which doesn't surprise since I am a Cavs fan and you guys are Crltic fans.  No harm there

Project Leon Powe's stats out to 48 minutes and he is a superstar.  It doesn't mean anything. 

I agree that West is an important part of the Cavs rotation, but IMO, saying that he is as good, or better (or more valuable) than Ray Allen is ludicrous.

[winsomme]

just to jump off topic for a sec here....are those not the worst rims in the NBA?

CLE has a big advantage playing on those rims for all their home games. but for a team coming in that doesn't play on them regularly, it seems like the reinforced steel rims we used to shoot on as kids. made that way so they would last through NE winters....

those things in CLE are brutal.

This is what we call an excuse.

The same excuses the Lakers used in the finals.

I hate having to make excuses because winners don't need them.

fair enough, but those cement blocks they call rims are still brutal.....