Official Bring Back Antoine Thread (No Joke)

[Jaycelt]

There isn't a single benefit for the Celtics in bringing back Walker, only negatives.

For someone who has watched him give C's fans a glimmer of hope during the down years where he got ZERO help due to incompetent management, I tend to think otherwise, Jayce.

The benefit you describe would be for Antoine, not the Celtics.
Do you want to win championships or do you want to be a charity?

[jdub1660]

I can't stand all this hatred towards a former Celtic great. He stuck with the team when he was here and worked with Paul to put up a winning record. Successful or not, the guy still has gas left in the tank to benefit this team. Mutumbo is still my #1 target if I were Danny Aigne, but at this point I would like to see both come in. To create room, we lower the trade request for Giddens from 1st rounder to 2nd rounder(or Scal or a 2nd rounder) and waive Cassell so he can go straight into coaching, as he hasn't played  minute this season anyway. House has stepped up too plus we have Pruitt to fill the minutes if needed. Sign Mutumbo so we can have our backup C(and a teacher for Pat0 and Perk) and Antoine can be the help/experience off the bench at the 3 or 4 when playing small ball.

[LB3533]

Our 2nd unit could use a lift.

Or Doc can just play some of the starters with the 2nd unit like a normal coach would.

[freshinthehouse]

I can't stand all this hatred towards a former Celtic great.

Antoine?  Great?  Did he rescue a family from a burning house or something, because he never was great on the court.  Good?  At times.  Great?  Nope.
 
{quote]He stuck with the team when he was here and worked with Paul to put up a winning record.[/quote]

Of course he stuck with Boston.  We were the only team stupid enough to give him a max deal. 

Successful or not, the guy still has gas left in the tank to benefit this team.

No he doesn't.  If he had any ability left, we'd be hearing more rumors of teams thinking about signing him.  Dude is spent.


The idea of signing Antoine is lunacy.  We don't need another PF.  He'd be fourth on the depth chart for Pete's sake.  Cassell is walking corpse at this point, but at least he plays a position we actually may need.  And you are delusional if you think Antoine can guard SFs at the level that we demand.  He would struggle with quicker PFs with the shape that he is in.

If we are going to make a move, our priorities will be:

1: Veteran center

2: Defensive minded small forward


Let some other team waste a roster spot on Antoine.  He is basically a homeless man's Sam Perkins* at this point in his career.






*And I'm not talking young Sam.  I'm talking 38 year old dreadlocked, pot bellied Sam who backed up Rik Smits in Indy.

[nickagneta]

I can't stand all this hatred towards a former Celtic great. He stuck with the team when he was here and worked with Paul to put up a winning record. Successful or not, the guy still has gas left in the tank to benefit this team. Mutumbo is still my #1 target if I were Danny Aigne, but at this point I would like to see both come in. To create room, we lower the trade request for Giddens from 1st rounder to 2nd rounder(or Scal or a 2nd rounder) and waive Cassell so he can go straight into coaching, as he hasn't played  minute this season anyway. House has stepped up too plus we have Pruitt to fill the minutes if needed. Sign Mutumbo so we can have our backup C(and a teacher for Pat0 and Perk) and Antoine can be the help/experience off the bench at the 3 or 4 when playing small ball.

I don't see that there's any hate here. I know I don't hate Toine. I appreciate what he did for this franchise from the time he was drafted through the end of that magical 2002 run but honestly, after that, he's done little to nothing to help this club and has become a shadow of what he once was.

Antoine was great to cheer for when he was here but I was well past my boyhood years when he was here and look at what he was when he was here much differently than those that my have grown up on basketball as Celtics fans and Walker being their only or almost only Celtic worth cheering for. Pitino ruined him by not instilling in him a proper work ethic during the off season, not surrounding him with some quality vets, not forcing him to play his position, and enabling his attitude of jacking up threes whenever he wanted. Jim O'Brien only made things worse. He was a player that had unreal potential and never reached what he could have attained.

For my generation that was brought up up the Auerbach philosophy of basketball and watching players become more than they ever had a reason to become because of Red's system, coaching and personal demands he put on his playes, Antoine is kinda the antithesis of what we were raised on. Our view of Antoine Walker is very different than those of a younger generation or two.

I don't hate Toine but I can see that even if he was the same player that he was in 2002-2005 he still would be a bad fit for this team. Walker's bad fit rests between his ears and not as much with his physical prowess or basketball ability. He's a bit of an egomaniac, and in a bad way, he doesn't play to his strengths, he's thinks he is better than he is or ever was and continues to play that way, and he doesn't have the drive to play quality defense or rebound which is nothing but hard work and desire.

And his game has deteriorated faster than just about every 32 year old that ever had his talent that has ever played this game.

I don't hate Walker. I just have a very, very different view of him that maybe someone in my kid's generation or younger might have of him(think under 26 years old).

[Redz]

I can't stand all this hatred towards a former Celtic great.

Great is absolute hyperbole.  Especially when talking about this franchise which has had so many legitimate greats.

I liked Twoine, but he wasn't a Celtic great.

[jsingh1699]

theres one plus about antoine to consider (it was mentioned by somebody but i feel the need to re-emphasize it).

he loves playing the point forward and bringing the ball up. with our second team, i think that is extremely important. house does a pretty good job of it, but if they pressure him, or tony allen, a turnover can easily happen. having antoine on the floor with the two of them in the second line would let house get to play more a shooting guard kind of role, and t. allen more of a small forward/slasher kinda role. this wouldnt happen every play, but its a nice option in case a lindsey hunter or another big time pg defender gives house or allen trouble.

[nickagneta]

theres one plus about antoine to consider (it was mentioned by somebody but i feel the need to re-emphasize it).

he loves playing the point forward and bringing the ball up. with our second team, i think that is extremely important. house does a pretty good job of it, but if they pressure him, or tony allen, a turnover can easily happen. having antoine on the floor with the two of them in the second line would let house get to play more a shooting guard kind of role, and t. allen more of a small forward/slasher kinda role. this wouldnt happen every play, but its a nice option in case a lindsey hunter or another big time pg defender gives house or allen trouble.

Or Doc can put more trust in Greg Pruitt who has an unbelieveably better handle and ability to bring up the ball than does House or Walker and is starting to show just who good of a defensive player and three point sniper he can become.

Pruitt is the answer to the deficiency you mention, not Antoine.

This team's desparately needs a true large big man to play either the 5 or both the 4 and 5 and they need a true SF who can play defense. Antoine is neither.

[Cman]

Boy, we really like to recycle old ideas here at CB: "bring Walker back", "how good is TA?", "we miss Posey on the 2nd unit", etc.

If we put as much effort into recycling cans and bottles as we did recycling ideas like "bring Walker back",
(a) the world would be a cleaner place;
(b) we would have a chest full of nickels;
(c) Walker would be no closer to coming back to the Celtics...

feel free to add on!
 

[Redz]

I just posted this thought in another thread, but maybe it belongs better here.

In thinking back to Game 4 of the Finals last year and how I never quit on the Celtics that night it made me realize that Antoine's biggest contribution to the Celtics was making me fully believe that they can come back from down big in a playoff game.

[jdub1660]

Our Celts are playing great. But this is just the regular season, and so far the schedule has been easier than last. Christmas day will be the deciding factor on our bench. If House/Powe/Tony are able to keep the game close so the big 3 can stay fresh, then the gold is as good as ours. But if games continue to go the way they are, with the big 3 playing almost 35mpg each, then we're going to have an even harder playoffs this year(not that it gets any harder than 3 7 game series) I hate to break up chemistry but this team needs a boost on the bench. This team is not built for years and a dynasty is hard to say with the bench like it is. No, Antoine doesn't put us into championship guaranteed, but he's an upgrade over Scalabrine(who is just as slow at guarding the SF, but MUCH LESS EXPERIENCED) Sam Cassell IS done, and Pruitt has got to get more playing time but won't until the bench is strong enough to hold a 20 point lead for more than part of a quarter. I am desperate enough to consider Marbury at this point, but I lean more towards a Joe Smith trade, and a Mutombo signing. And as for someone saying we need a vet SF and true C...that's obvious but put a name on the position before you down every one that's thrown out for consideration. Antoine could help with 3's like Posey did, Joe Smith could add some offense behind KG as well as rebounds and Defense, and Mutumbo could be our presense behind Perk with blocking shots(and teaching Pat0). Pruitt/House will be fine for our PG situation, as Rondo is young enough and more experienced now to handle more minutes come playoff time.

[PSquared]

I can't stand all this hatred towards a former Celtic great. He stuck with the team when he was here and worked with Paul to put up a winning record. Successful or not, the guy still has gas left in the tank to benefit this team. Mutumbo is still my #1 target if I were Danny Aigne, but at this point I would like to see both come in. To create room, we lower the trade request for Giddens from 1st rounder to 2nd rounder(or Scal or a 2nd rounder) and waive Cassell so he can go straight into coaching, as he hasn't played  minute this season anyway. House has stepped up too plus we have Pruitt to fill the minutes if needed. Sign Mutumbo so we can have our backup C(and a teacher for Pat0 and Perk) and Antoine can be the help/experience off the bench at the 3 or 4 when playing small ball.

I don't see that there's any hate here.

Check out freshinthehouse's remarks and his "we're the only team stupid enough to sign him to a max deal."   That sounds kind of borderline but whatever....

[Jon]

Speaking as someone who was a big Toine fan when he was here, I can't see him really fitting in with this current team.  Like last year, this team's biggest needs are size up front or a real backup point guard.  With Posey's departure, you could arguably add a bigger defensive presence at the 2/3 than the 6-4 Tony Allen.  In any case, Toine doesn't fit the bill at any of those positions.  All the same, I vehemently disagree with the sentiment that Toine is somehow the anti-Christ.  If Ainge ever did sign him, the worst that would happen is that he'd be another Sam Cassell.  Worst case he's a waste of the vet. minimum; however, in no way shape or form would he be the undoing of this team. 

[PSquared]

I can't stand all this hatred towards a former Celtic great.

Antoine?  Great?  Did he rescue a family from a burning house or something, because he never was great on the court.  Good?  At times.  Great?  Nope.

So if Toine rescued a family from a burning house, he'd be great then?  But what does that make Pierce then?  He didn't save a family from a burning building, did he?   
 

He stuck with the team when he was here and worked with Paul to put up a winning record.

Of course he stuck with Boston.  We were the only team stupid enough to give him a max deal. 

I take big-time exception to that remark.  Had Walker ended up with another team that had...you know....A REAL HEAD COACH, REAL VETERANS, AND TEAM MANAGEMENT THAT HAD AN IQ HIGHER THAN A JELLYBEAN, he'd end up being signed to a Max deal as well(and actually would've been able to be worthy of contracts like that for the foreseeable future).  The C's saw something in Toine that warranted him getting a Max Deal.  What they didn't see was what effect Not having a Real Vet Coach(ML Carr, Pitino, OBrien??? Please....), not having any Veterans(those worthy of respect, anyway), and a ninny for a GM/Owner would have on Mr.Walker and his career.   

Successful or not, the guy still has gas left in the tank to benefit this team.

No he doesn't.  If he had any ability left, we'd be hearing more rumors of teams thinking about signing him.  Dude is spent.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=10959

Yeah It's hoopsworld but you know the saying about "smoke and fire"....

(by the way, the guy is only 32 years old.  There is no way in hell that he's "spent" as you said.  Never heard of someone retiring when they're just 32 unless they have some type of medical condition that causes him to retire.)

The idea of signing Antoine is lunacy.  We don't need another PF.  He'd be fourth on the depth chart for Pete's sake.  Cassell is walking corpse at this point, but at least he plays a position we actually may need.

So let me get this straight.  Because Cassell is a PG(IN NAME ONLY), then that means it's ok to have him just sit there, joke with teammates, and just take up space.   Right?   

I think the "lunacy" is in certain people's thinking regarding Sam's role right now and what he is "really" bringing to this team.  But I digress....this isn't about Sam...

  And you are delusional if you think Antoine can guard SFs at the level that we demand.  He would struggle with quicker PFs with the shape that he is in.

And what level is it that *YOU* demand?  There's this little thing called HELP DEFENSE!!!  Perhaps you've heard of it?  Only player I know that is able to effectively shut down or almost-completely guard opposing players is Bruce Bowen.  The rest of the league's so-called defenders always have their Teammates help out on defense....Keywords : HELP OUT.  So don't give me that crap about how he couldn't defend SFs and stuff 'cause in this league, NO ONE can truly defend someone One-on-One.  NO ONE.

If we are going to make a move, our priorities will be:

1: Veteran center

I heard we'll be going after the 5,000,000 year old Fossil named Mutombo.   Nice. Hopefully his finger doesn't come flying off while doing the Finger wag after years of decay...

2: Defensive minded small forward

In other words a Small Forward who would rather play defense than Score.   That's what should be stated there.  But here's the rub : A Small Forward HAS TO BE ABLE TO SCORE and not just play D.   Don't know who's out there that fits this bill, though....

Let some other team waste a roster spot on Antoine.  He is basically a homeless man's Sam Perkins* at this point in his career.

With a Championship Ring on his finger, too.   Oh woe is Toine.   

nick said there is no "hate" but your commentary disproves his theory.   No surprise.

*And I'm not talking young Sam.  I'm talking 38 year old dreadlocked, pot bellied Sam who backed up Rik Smits in Indy.

Wasn't he able to make 3's as a "dreadlocked, pot bellied Sam", though?   Whatever.... 

[LB3533]

Toine can be useful off our bench, probably more consistent than TA, definitely better than Powe, Baby, and Scal.