Powe or Davis?

[expobear]

The question is, who can you get more for in a trade.  Trade that guy, keep the other.  I think Cs can get more back if they trade Powe now.  I hate to do it, but I think it is the move to make.  I really like Powe (part of that is because I am a Cal guy like him) and him not being a C won't change that.  If there is any way for him to end up with Golden State or the Kings (so he is closer to family) then that would be great...

If any team is interested in Powe next yaar and gives him some decent money, I have to think Powe is gone.  Powe will never develop as a player as long as he is playing behind Garnett.  If he gets a decent offer, I doubt the Celtics will match.  Powe has a ring and perhaps another this year....he needs to find out whether he can play in the NBA.  Getting  10-15 minutes playing behind Garnett was more than Powe could have hoped for a couple of years ago.  Now, Powe has bigger and better aspirations and unfortunately, he won't find it playing for the best team in the NBA.

Why would the celtics not match a reasonable offer? I get your point about how it might be best for powe to move on, but if the celtics can keep leon, they will. Baby is not as dynamic as a 4, and they need him at the 5.

I think Powe would get a reasonable offer but let's not get carried away here I doubt it would be for anything more than half the MLE if that. It will be very reasonable money and if Leon wants to stay on the east coast, he might give the Celtics a chance to match.

Then again, Leon starting alongside Biedrins in a wide open Golden State offense in his hometown might really appeal to Leon and Boston wouldn't have a chance to match. Never know.

there's no choice for him next year, we get to match. if we do he stays. He's restricted.
(unless im confusing this with football. i thought if the incumbant team matched, they held onto the players rights.)


My point was that while going someplace and starting might be best for leon, danny will do whats best for the celtics, and if thats leon off the bench for another year, he'll match.

At 800k, Powe is a steal and Ainge would gladly keep him.  But do you think if the price for Powe goes up to 2-3MM/yr for 3-4 years, is Powe going to be as desirable? If the season were to end right now, I think Ainge/Rivers would rather keep Davis than Powe, based on the amount of playing time they're currently getting. With the amount of time Powe is getting these days, he certainly seems replaceable with cheaper options looking forward.

[Sweet17]

BBD is terrible overall but better at center then Leon Powe - who really isn't very big at all. He is likely better then POB who looks like some african guy who just learned the game last week. <g>

This thread is full of fail - when it comes to evaluating BBD though. I look for shotblocking, rebounding and ability to finish around the hoop in a center.

BBD fails at all of this - and he can't shoot to top it off. Easily the worst finisher at center in the NBA. I never seen a center blow more layups that should be dunks. He basically blocks no shots at all. That's horrible for a backup center. His rebounding is mediocre at best.

As for his so called 'strengths' - his defense is purely positional. So if a guy gets behind him they can just pass it over his head. Guys can just shoot over him if they have a J - and if a guy penetrates he can't help with shot blocking..

Yes he can hold a big out of postion on the box. But that's not the be all and end all of defense. If that was the case KG would be a horrible defender.

His passing is nothing to write home about. His 2.4 assists per/48 is better then Powe's at 1.8 but it's not like Magic and McHale as some would have us believe.

Its kind of an open question as to whether the weight challenged BBD or Scal is the inferior player.. Both have negative +/-'s and huge negative PERs differentials (true signs of craptastic play). But BBD has pulled ahead of Scalabrine. OTOH Scabs can hit a 3 now and then..

The best things the C's can do is look for two guys to push these guys back in the rotation. Sure we can win with them - but we are winning in spite of them - not because of them. I'd love to see BBD used situationally to just push some bigs off the box. And Scalabrine could go on the inactive list if we can get ahold of another 3/4 with some athleticism..

I am hopeful DA can find someone better then BBD so we don't have to bother resigning him. Maybe that will snap him into shape with regards to his conditioning....gettting dumped by the C's. He does have some talent. IF he got in Powe shape he might be respectable..

Pete

[Scalablob990]

Pete I agree with some of your opionions but not all. BBDs main ability is to use his weight so if he lost it now you just have a center who still can't finish, only shoots j's, can't block shots, etc... but now can't push a guy out as well since he's lighter. For now I love watching the Powe/Davis/E.house triple team in the second unit since all of them know how to work really well with each other. But all of a sudden the subbing has gotten really odd, and I think this scalabrine $**T is to blame. All of a sudden Leons minutes have gone down drastically ( not even 10 mins the last 2 games) and BBD's have sky rocketed. I'm sorry but doc needs to get off leons case since he loves to pull him out if he has even 1 mistake. That blobabrine screws up on EVERYTHING even D and if we want to debate this, watch the Charlotte/Pacer/Warriors games when he actually guarded a good player, he sucks. Bring back Walker stick him in at SF to give mins since TA's injured, don't give the minutes to Scalablob.

[kenmaine]

Sweet-
That's a pretty harsh assessment of BBD. You make some good points, but he IS a backup, not a superstar. As a backup, he's more than adequate IMO.
 The jumpers he's taking are annoying, but it's most likely the coaching staff encouraging him to see if he can hit it consistently. So far it's not working, but it looks good when he shoots it, so it'll be a nice weapon if he improves on it.
I still prefer Leon though- his game may be limited, but he gets a lot done when he's in there.

[Sweet17]

That's a pretty harsh assessment of BBD. You make some good points, but he IS a backup, not a superstar. As a backup, he's more than adequate IMO.

Joel Przybilla is a backup on Portland. I'd say he is more then adequate.

1) He doesn't take ANY outside shots. His "close" shooting percentage is .810. his eFG is 82%. his drawn foul is 17.6%. Basically he just gets dunks and layups around the basket but with his height he can finish them.

2)He blocks 2.9 shots per game 48. For comparison sake BBD blocks 0.4%.

3) His defensive rebounding percentage is 28% BBD is 14.1%

As for the "if he lost the weight he couldn't push people around argument"...
I don't really buy it. It's the strength under his weight that lets him push people around. BBD is a strong guy. If he lost some weight he could play as a undersized PF or a bruising type of SF. Thats what he is suited for..

Yes he would be less useful as a "situational' center but he would be a vastly better ball player, IMHO. i am always irked by the "oh he is big and fat" argument. If you look around the league there are not a ton of effective players with that body type. BBD succeeds inspite of his weight not because of it. That's why people call him talented. While his strength is useful his weight saps his athleticism.

Pete

[crownsy]

Pete I agree with some of your opionions but not all. BBDs main ability is to use his weight so if he lost it now you just have a center who still can't finish, only shoots j's, can't block shots, etc... but now can't push a guy out as well since he's lighter. For now I love watching the Powe/Davis/E.house triple team in the second unit since all of them know how to work really well with each other. But all of a sudden the subbing has gotten really odd, and I think this scalabrine $**T is to blame. All of a sudden Leons minutes have gone down drastically ( not even 10 mins the last 2 games) and BBD's have sky rocketed. I'm sorry but doc needs to get off leons case since he loves to pull him out if he has even 1 mistake. That blobabrine screws up on EVERYTHING even D and if we want to debate this, watch the Charlotte/Pacer/Warriors games when he actually guarded a good player, he sucks. Bring back Walker stick him in at SF to give mins since TA's injured, don't give the minutes to Scalablob.

what does scal have to do with leon's minutes? the only minutes scal gets are limited minutes at the 3.

Baby is impacting leon's minutes, not scal. Baby has been playing very well lately, and he gets not only the backup minutes at the 5, which leon can't play, but also some of leon's minutes at the 4 due to how well he's playing.

[Chris]

That's a pretty harsh assessment of BBD. You make some good points, but he IS a backup, not a superstar. As a backup, he's more than adequate IMO.

Joel Przybilla is a backup on Portland. I'd say he is more then adequate.

1) He doesn't take ANY outside shots. His "close" shooting percentage is .810. his eFG is 82%. his drawn foul is 17.6%. Basically he just gets dunks and layups around the basket but with his height he can finish them.

2)He blocks 2.9 shots per game 48. For comparison sake BBD blocks 0.4%.

3) His defensive rebounding percentage is 28% BBD is 14.1%

As for the "if he lost the weight he couldn't push people around argument"...
I don't really buy it. It's the strength under his weight that lets him push people around. BBD is a strong guy. If he lost some weight he could play as a undersized PF or a bruising type of SF. Thats what he is suited for..

Yes he would be less useful as a "situational' center but he would be a vastly better ball player, IMHO. i am always irked by the "oh he is big and fat" argument. If you look around the league there are not a ton of effective players with that body type. BBD succeeds inspite of his weight not because of it. That's why people call him talented. While his strength is useful his weight saps his athleticism.

Pete

Przybilla is a starting center in this league for about 20 different teams.  It is completely unfair to compare him to BBD who is a backup PF, playing out of position because his teams needs him to.

And I disagree that you need to have rebounds and blocked shots from your Center.  In a vaccuum, sure, but not in the C's system.  For the C's, the most important things for their big men are the ability to hedge on the perimeter, rotate back into position, set picks, maintain position, and box out their men.  The C's rely on team rebounding, and excel at challenging shots, and cutting off players from getting to the open spots on the floor.

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if we had another big man who could consistently block shots, but that is a luxury, while the defensive positioning is an absolute necessity, and a much more rare skill than some people think.

[Sweet17]

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if we had another big man who could consistently block shots, but that is a luxury, while the defensive positioning is an absolute necessity, and a much more rare skill than some people think.

KG doesn't seem to think BBD has alot of "rare skill." Come on now - I kinda like BBD too. He is kinda loveable. He is not a very good ball player at the NBA level though.

This is much like the arguments for Scalabrine - he plays team D. Let me tell you both guys try but its not to any great effect. The units they play consistently suffer.

Pete

[Toine43]

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if we had another big man who could consistently block shots, but that is a luxury, while the defensive positioning is an absolute necessity, and a much more rare skill than some people think.

KG doesn't seem to think BBD has alot of "rare skill." Come on now - I kinda like BBD too. He is kinda loveable. He is not a very good ball player at the NBA level though.

This is much like the arguments for Scalabrine - he plays team D. Let me tell you both guys try but its not to any great effect. The units they play consistently suffer.

Pete

I'm not going to try and hide it, this post really (ticks) me off. KG doesn't seem to think BBD has a lot of "rare skill?" Where does that statement even come from? Yeah, something odd went down tonight between the two, but if you listened to KG's post game interview, and if you know KG at all, you know that what happened has nothing to do with what he thinks of Big Baby's playing ability. I'm sure they'll have the issue resolved soon.


Also, how can you compare Davis to Scal as you did? First of all, Davis actually has some versatility and usefullness on offense, which Scal doesn't have much of. The thing is, it almost seems like you're using good team defense as negative. If they're playing good team basketball, I'd like to know how "the units they play consistently suffer." What do want out of them? More style? There are a lot of other basketball players out there who have a lot more style, whose units are actually suffering because of them.

[Sweet17]

I'm not going to try and hide it, this post really (ticks) me off. KG doesn't seem to think BBD has a lot of "rare skill?" Where does that statement even come from? Yeah, something odd went down tonight between the two, but if you listened to KG's post game interview, and if you know KG at all, you know that what happened has nothing to do with what he thinks of Big Baby's playing ability. I'm sure they'll have the issue resolved soon.

How would you know? You werent in the huddle. It sure seemed to me KG was on him for sucking out there..

Also, how can you compare Davis to Scal as you did? First of all, Davis actually has some versatility and usefullness on offense, which Scal doesn't have much of. The thing is, it almost seems like you're using good team defense as negative. If they're playing good team basketball, I'd like to know how "the units they play consistently suffer." What do want out of them? More style? There are a lot of other basketball players out there who have a lot more style, whose units are actually suffering because of them.

How can I compare them? Let me count the ways.

Both are around 6'8" or less. Both are poor rebounders. Both are overweight. Both are lauded for hustle play. Both are lauded for good team defense. Both are routinely outplayed by the man they guard. Both are very limited offensively.

You want "numbers" the two rotation players with a large negative Roland Rating.. Scalabrine and BBD!

http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOS.HTM

[Tr1boy]

powe easily. i love it when a player hustles nonstop

we need to lock him up to an extension. Ainge should do it now while he will accept a cheap deal.

2.5 million per year for 3 years

[Toine43]

How would you know? You werent in the huddle. It sure seemed to me KG was on him for sucking out there..

That doesn't mean that he thinks Big Baby stinks. In this particular game, KG was unhappy with Davis' play. Don't try to back up what you're saying with the statement that KG thinks Big Baby lacks ability, when you have no evidence of that.

Both are around 6'8" or less.

Correct

Both are poor rebounders.

Wrong. Davis is known for his ability to create space and grab offensive boards.

Both are overweight.

This is basically just thrown in there to (tick) me off further, and who knows if they are actually overweight or not? Plus, many would say Davis' weight is a positive.

Both are lauded for hustle play. Both are lauded for good team defense.

Is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Both are routinely outplayed by the man they guard.

Judging them on how well they play in comparison to the man they guard is not fair to either one, although I feel that that statement applies to Scal more, as his job isn't to outperform his man (if that were his job, he wouldn't be in the league right now). Davis has shown some man-to-man defensive prowess (see Spurs game last year vs. Duncan).

Both are very limited offensively.

Incorrect. Davis is a multifaceted offensive player. He can score the garbage points after offensive rebounds, he has a post up game, he's a decent ball handler, he's developing a jumper, according to Doc he's the best pick setter on the team, and he has excellent passing skills and court vision.



I had a feeling you'd respond with something from 82games.com. Yes, I've looked there myself and I've noticed that about Davis and Scal. The problem is, their roland ratings and plus/minus numbers are extrememly skewed by the amount of garbage time these guys play. Both have much better numbers on that site when you take out the garbage time, and they are the rotational players that have played the most garbage time, so their numbers are more likely to be effected than others.

[bucknersrevenge]

I agree with Pete on this and have said so elsewhere. I'd rather another athletic big that can run the floor, move his feet on defense, and contest a shot. I like Big Baby. How can you not like the kid? But in the end with Powe already undersized despite his long arms and his hustle, I'd prefer not to pair a shor PF in Powe with an even more undersized C in Davis who doesn't have the long arms and who doesn't have the athletic ability to counter his height disparity. And Pete's right, Davis is not a great finisher around the rim either. If there are any 6-10 or above veteran FA centers I think we should be looking.

[Sweet17]

I agree with Pete on this and have said so elsewhere. I'd rather another athletic big that can run the floor, move his feet on defense, and contest a shot. I like Big Baby. How can you not like the kid? But in the end with Powe already undersized despite his long arms and his hustle, I'd prefer not to pair a shor PF in Powe with an even more undersized C in Davis who doesn't have the long arms and who doesn't have the athletic ability to counter his height disparity. And Pete's right, Davis is not a great finisher around the rim either. If there are any 6-10 or above veteran FA centers I think we should be looking.

My guess is we could see buyouts of Joe Smith and maybe a guy like Nazr Mohammed. We are just looking for a guy to fill that PJ Brown role like we had last year. Let's hope lightning strikes twice..

As for BBD it's much like the Walker debate..of old. (Though Walker of course was much better) point is that some people get sucked in by the unusual things he did well and failed to notice alot of the normal things he did poorly..

Yeah BBD took a mid-range jumper. But too bad he never HITS them. But hey I already posted the stats. The guy isn't super effective out there - he is just the best we have. POB is worse.

Pete

[Tr1boy]

i feel bad for danny in the offseason if he has to choose one of big baby or powe to choose. For example like tonight, davis is playing alot better than powe. Other games powe is outworking davis.

Personally if davis lost a bit more weight i'd keep him. (his iq and footspeed is too good )

which guy would u want to keep if we had only 1 choice?