At times, hard to stay positive over the off season moves

[cordobes]

I believe that many of you are, unfortunately, missing the point. Speaking for myself, I wrote here, right after Posey signed with the Hornets, that the best option would probably be to re-sign Allen and House and stand pat.  But this doesn't mean one can't make an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of our current roster. When people say that this roster is "risky" and has notorious flaws, it means precisely that, not that "we don't have a chance". That's a straw man argument, something civilized people don't use. Just saying one is silly to be concerned because "nodoby knows if a rookie can step up or not" is nonsense. That's precisely the question: not knowing if a rookie can step up or not. Saying it doesn't matter because the roster will chance before the playoffs it's something I don't quite understand as well: what's exactly the point? We are talking about what we need to do to improve this roster, as it's currently built. Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

Another fallacy is using an argumentum ad verecundiam. That's in very bad taste, IMO. Let me ask you something: do you consider signing another veteran, say, Bonzi Wells or some backup center, in the next few weeks:
1) a good move
2) a bad move
3) a good move if Ainge sings someone and a bad move if Ainge doesn't sign anyone

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

[Mr October]

I for one am very positive about this off season - considering what the C's had to choose from. The C's needed more athleticism at the wings and down low ( a 2, a 2/3, a 3/4, and a 5). One or 2 of them could crack the rotation.

And just like last year, there will be roster tweaks based on the needs mid-season. I fully expect PJ or Mourning or the like to join the team then. Also we should be ready to trade powe or baby (no need to keep both when it comes time to paying them real NBA money) by the deadline.

If Miles isn't worthy of the rotation, he should be cut. Then the C's can grab whoever is needed.

Posey will be missed. He is the only major regular season loss.

[Mr October]

As for 'in danny I trust'... I prescribe to that belief at DRAFT time. I imagine that is the case for most on this blog. I trust that Giddens and Walker have a good chance of becoming solid players in the NBA.

As for what the C's should do right now... Lets bring this roster into camp and see what happens. Tweak as we go. I don't quite think Bonzi Wells vaults the quality of the bench up a level - due to his volatile chemistry issues. As for another big.... i think the Center pond is dry. Would Kwame Brown or the Birdman have been much better signings than POB? I don't think so.

Is it training camp time yet? I'm ready for year 2!!!

[Neurotic Guy]

I believe that many of you are, unfortunately, missing the point. Speaking for myself, I wrote here, right after Posey signed with the Hornets, that the best option would probably be to re-sign Allen and House and stand pat.  But this doesn't mean one can't make an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of our current roster. When people say that this roster is "risky" and has notorious flaws, it means precisely that, not that "we don't have a chance". That's a straw man argument, something civilized people don't use. Just saying one is silly to be concerned because "nodoby knows if a rookie can step up or not" is nonsense. That's precisely the question: not knowing if a rookie can step up or not. Saying it doesn't matter because the roster will chance before the playoffs it's something I don't quite understand as well: what's exactly the point? We are talking about what we need to do to improve this roster, as it's currently built. Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

Another fallacy is using an argumentum ad verecundiam. That's in very bad taste, IMO. Let me ask you something: do you consider signing another veteran, say, Bonzi Wells or some backup center, in the next few weeks:
1) a good move
2) a bad move
3) a good move if Ainge sings someone and a bad move if Ainge doesn't sign anyone

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

Exquisite use of Latin. Unfortunately, argumentum ad verecundium is used ad nauseum here (not really).

Actually, I feel right now exactly the way I would hope to feel heading into the season -- excited.

If the C's had done nothing (draft picks; signed Posey), there would still be question marks and speculation regarding the age of the big 3 (and Posey) and perhaps about the team's ability to sustain the energy the way they did last year.  We know we have a competitive team (if health prevails), but -- like last year at this time -- we won't know just how competitive till we see the team on the court and see how the players/coaches grow together this season.  

The excitement for me is about having a group of young (and young-ish) players competing for minutes and learning from the vet professionals (and coaches) on the team.  TA, Giddens, Walker, POB, BBD, Powe, Pruitt and Miles are ALL question marks in one respect or another, but ALL have something to prove and all have interesting skills.  The dynamics are in place for competition, for learning, for intensity and energy -- that spells excitement to me.  Does it  mean we have the pieces lined up for Banner 18? Who knows? -- but, I'll predict right now that at least someone will emerge from the group above with increased consistency, increased skill and/or increased savvy.   I think its actually more exciting (albeit not quite as secure) than going in with a purely veteran team with little change. I think we'll have an interesting October.

But -- in answer to your query -- we absolutely need a veteran back-up at the C -- and depending upon Miles, possibly a back-up 3. No rosters spots open now -- so that means a cut or a trade before all is said and done.

[bucknersrevenge]

I believe that many of you are, unfortunately, missing the point. Speaking for myself, I wrote here, right after Posey signed with the Hornets, that the best option would probably be to re-sign Allen and House and stand pat.  But this doesn't mean one can't make an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of our current roster. When people say that this roster is "risky" and has notorious flaws, it means precisely that, not that "we don't have a chance". That's a straw man argument, something civilized people don't use. Just saying one is silly to be concerned because "nodoby knows if a rookie can step up or not" is nonsense. That's precisely the question: not knowing if a rookie can step up or not. Saying it doesn't matter because the roster will chance before the playoffs it's something I don't quite understand as well: what's exactly the point? We are talking about what we need to do to improve this roster, as it's currently built. Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

Another fallacy is using an argumentum ad verecundiam. That's in very bad taste, IMO. Let me ask you something: do you consider signing another veteran, say, Bonzi Wells or some backup center, in the next few weeks:
1) a good move
2) a bad move
3) a good move if Ainge sings someone and a bad move if Ainge doesn't sign anyone

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

Absolutely 100% incorrect. Eddie House has experience and is an excellent perimeter shooter. Giddens possesses excelent size for a backup 2 and plays much bigger than his size with his long arms and was a solid shooter in college. His last season he shot 52% from the floor including 33% from beyond the arc. O'Bryant also has excellent size and is a legit 7fter with a 9'5 standing reach. Size is no issue, experience for the new players is the only issue  and that issue will be remedied this season as they play throughout the year.

As for answering the question about Wells, I might do it if it was for the vet minimum but not more. That said, at this point I'd rather go through the regular season with what we have and groom the young kids and get them prepared to be contributors and then if need be later on fill in the blank with a veteran late if need be. Ironic you would ask a question about Wells though. IIRC didn't you blast Wells' lack of effectiveness with the Hornets in the playoffs last year.

[cordobes]

I believe that many of you are, unfortunately, missing the point. Speaking for myself, I wrote here, right after Posey signed with the Hornets, that the best option would probably be to re-sign Allen and House and stand pat.  But this doesn't mean one can't make an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of our current roster. When people say that this roster is "risky" and has notorious flaws, it means precisely that, not that "we don't have a chance". That's a straw man argument, something civilized people don't use. Just saying one is silly to be concerned because "nodoby knows if a rookie can step up or not" is nonsense. That's precisely the question: not knowing if a rookie can step up or not. Saying it doesn't matter because the roster will chance before the playoffs it's something I don't quite understand as well: what's exactly the point? We are talking about what we need to do to improve this roster, as it's currently built. Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

Another fallacy is using an argumentum ad verecundiam. That's in very bad taste, IMO. Let me ask you something: do you consider signing another veteran, say, Bonzi Wells or some backup center, in the next few weeks:
1) a good move
2) a bad move
3) a good move if Ainge sings someone and a bad move if Ainge doesn't sign anyone

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

Absolutely 100% incorrect. Eddie House has experience and is an excellent perimeter shooter. Giddens possesses excelent size for a backup 2 and plays much bigger than his size with his long arms and was a solid shooter in college. His last season he shot 52% from the floor including 33% from beyond the arc. O'Bryant also has excellent size and is a legit 7fter with a 9'5 standing reach. Size is no issue, experience is the only issue and that issue will be remedied this season as they play throughout the year.

As for answering the question about Wells, I might do it if it was for the vet minimum but not more. That said, at this point I'd rather go through the regular season with what we have and groom the young kids and get them prepared to be contributors and then if need be later on fill in the blank with a veteran late if need be. Ironic you would ask a question about Wells though. IIRC didn't you blast Wells' lack of effectiveness with the Hornets in the playoffs last year.

Absolutely. I think signing Wells would be a terrible move. Re-read my second sentence. I picked him because he's probably the most well-know UFA still unsigned. JR Giddens was a very streaky shooter in Kansas. Last season he shot less than 10% from beyond 3pt the line when facing decent competition. Considering Alford's offensive system, I tend to believe that he's a good shooter when really, really wide open, but not so good when defenders are able to close out. I can be wrong and it may only be a statistical anomaly, or maybe he performs worse in close games. It's just a guess, I never had the chance of getting film of him. But I wouldn't put my money on him being an above average NBA outside shooter in his 1st season. Not having another swingman that provides spacing coming off the bench is problematic, IMO.

I don't think playing through the regular season will solve the inexperience issue. Rondo started and played major minutes for the entire season and he still accused the lack of experience during the playoffs.

I think we need size on the wings and size at the post. O'Bryant can be useful once he learns the footwork to defend the post. At the wings, we just don't have it, unless Miles signs.

[bucknersrevenge]

I believe that many of you are, unfortunately, missing the point. Speaking for myself, I wrote here, right after Posey signed with the Hornets, that the best option would probably be to re-sign Allen and House and stand pat.  But this doesn't mean one can't make an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of our current roster. When people say that this roster is "risky" and has notorious flaws, it means precisely that, not that "we don't have a chance". That's a straw man argument, something civilized people don't use. Just saying one is silly to be concerned because "nodoby knows if a rookie can step up or not" is nonsense. That's precisely the question: not knowing if a rookie can step up or not. Saying it doesn't matter because the roster will chance before the playoffs it's something I don't quite understand as well: what's exactly the point? We are talking about what we need to do to improve this roster, as it's currently built. Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

Another fallacy is using an argumentum ad verecundiam. That's in very bad taste, IMO. Let me ask you something: do you consider signing another veteran, say, Bonzi Wells or some backup center, in the next few weeks:
1) a good move
2) a bad move
3) a good move if Ainge sings someone and a bad move if Ainge doesn't sign anyone

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

Absolutely 100% incorrect. Eddie House has experience and is an excellent perimeter shooter. Giddens possesses excelent size for a backup 2 and plays much bigger than his size with his long arms and was a solid shooter in college. His last season he shot 52% from the floor including 33% from beyond the arc. O'Bryant also has excellent size and is a legit 7fter with a 9'5 standing reach. Size is no issue, experience is the only issue and that issue will be remedied this season as they play throughout the year.

As for answering the question about Wells, I might do it if it was for the vet minimum but not more. That said, at this point I'd rather go through the regular season with what we have and groom the young kids and get them prepared to be contributors and then if need be later on fill in the blank with a veteran late if need be. Ironic you would ask a question about Wells though. IIRC didn't you blast Wells' lack of effectiveness with the Hornets in the playoffs last year.

Absolutely. I think signing Wells would be a terrible move. Re-read my second sentence. I picked him because he's probably the most well-know UFA still unsigned. JR Giddens was a very streaky shooter in Kansas. Last season he shot less than 10% from beyond 3pt the line when facing decent competition. Considering Alford's offensive system, I tend to believe that he's a good shooter when really, really wide open, but not so good when defenders are able to close out. I can be wrong and it may only be a statistical anomaly, or maybe he performs worse in close games. It's just a guess, I never had the chance of getting film of him. But I wouldn't put my money on him being an above average NBA outside shooter in his 1st season. Not having another swingman that provides spacing coming off the bench is problematic, IMO.

I don't think playing through the regular season will solve the inexperience issue. Rondo started and played major minutes for the entire season and he still accused the lack of experience during the playoffs.

I think we need size on the wings and size at the post. O'Bryant can be useful once he learns the footwork to defend the post. At the wings, we just don't have it, unless Miles signs.

I hear what you're saying cordobes but the reason I'm less worried about Giddens' 3-pt shooting is because that's not his game. His game is slashing and creating off the bounce. That is most certainly a skill we lacked coming off the bench last year. It was the main reason we really couldn't rest Paul as much as we wanted to because he was the only one capable of attacking the rim and making plays. Tony was still dealing with his knee or he would've bee good at this as well.

I still feel like people are trying to replace Posey with another "Posey". Last year's offense was designed around perimeter shooting. Doc took a look at his personnel and felt that that was the best way for this team to be efficient and it worked. But at the end of the season It became clear with the drafting of Giddens and Walker and the offer to Maggette that it was NOT something they really wanted to see happen again. People get so caught up in the "floor-spacing" argument because they assume the offense won't adapt and change to new personnel when indicators show that this is Dco and Danny's plan to begin with. Posey for all his clutch shots was a guy who 60% of his FGAs last year were from beyond the arc. This team frequently got into trouble last year when it went to its bench because the only players they could bring off it were 3-pt shooters. This team still has one in Eddie House. It doesn't NEED another one.

I mean could it be possible that Doc will again take a look at his personnel and design an offense that doesn't require guys to camp out at the arc waiting for kickouts? That's what good coaches do. Doc now has some athleticism to play with. We can run more fastbreak this year and get out into the open court. Off the bench we can run more motion with pin-downs, backscreens and cuts, lobs at the rim. We can now run a offense where KG can play with a bench unit that makes KG's passing an even more dangerous weapon. We won't need Paul to carry the game so much.

I think people watched how we won last year and got convinced that that was the only way we could ever win, pull up 3's on the break and perimeter jumpshots. Now we have multiple guys with the ability to attack the rim. I don't know about you but I believe it will be nice for a change to not have Paul as the only player on the team able to get to the line.

As for the size thing, I've already made my argument about what I think of our size. Gabe Pruitt is 5'4 and can handle the ball. JR is 6'5 with ridiculously long arms and much like Rondo plays much bigger than his actual size. Tony as well has the length to get a hand in a face. O'Bryant has a 9'5 standing reach at 7 feet tall. I couldn't be LESS worried about our size off the bench. I'm willing to give O'Bryant and giddens almost all season to see if they can handle it. Giddens already they say can play NBA defense and considering all the comparisons to Rondo physically and how Rondo impacts a game at such a young age I'll gladly take my shot with JR. O'Bryant reports have working out with Ray. He seems to be doing all the right things so far. KG and Perk will help. If those 2 come to play and work hard like I think they will do this is a dead issue. To a degree I think it already is.

[Chris]

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

I think our bench lacks experience.  We have plenty of size and outside shooting...the problem is much of it belongs to innexperienced players.

[BballTim]

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

  We're not completely lacking in experience. I'd expect Powe, House and Allen to get the bulk of the minutes and they're all pretty experienced.

[BballTim]

Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

  We don't know anything for sure, obviously. But Ainge said during and after the process that he had a limit on what he'd pay Posey and Posey was hoping to get offers higher than what Ainge was willing to pay. We know Ainge was interested in Maggette so it's not the case that Ainge was ignoring all other sf options while Posey decided. But, while subtle, there's a difference between saying that Ainge mis-calculated with Posey (because he waited for Posey to decide instead of withdrawing his offer) and claiming that Ainge mis-judged the market for Posey (as in  Ainge didn't think Posey would get the offer he did). Claiming the latter is ludicrous unless you believe that most of the people here knew about what Posey would get for an offer but Ainge had no idea. And IMO the claim that Ainge missed his fallbacks waiting for Posey seems like pure fantasy unless you have any info that Ainge was interested in those players at all.

  I apologize if I'm wrong about this, but I thought when I was arguing that Posey leaving didn't necessarily mean that our bench would be worse, you (and many others) were claiming that none of the free agents available were anywhere near as good as Posey. Now you (and others) are acting like it was a big mistake that we didn't sign any of those inferior players. Maybe Ainge didn't miscalculate, maybe he shared your low opinion of the alternatives.

[billysan]

I believe that many of you are, unfortunately, missing the point. Speaking for myself, I wrote here, right after Posey signed with the Hornets, that the best option would probably be to re-sign Allen and House and stand pat.  But this doesn't mean one can't make an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of our current roster. When people say that this roster is "risky" and has notorious flaws, it means precisely that, not that "we don't have a chance". That's a straw man argument, something civilized people don't use. Just saying one is silly to be concerned because "nodoby knows if a rookie can step up or not" is nonsense. That's precisely the question: not knowing if a rookie can step up or not. Saying it doesn't matter because the roster will chance before the playoffs it's something I don't quite understand as well: what's exactly the point? We are talking about what we need to do to improve this roster, as it's currently built. Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

Another fallacy is using an argumentum ad verecundiam. That's in very bad taste, IMO. Let me ask you something: do you consider signing another veteran, say, Bonzi Wells or some backup center, in the next few weeks:
1) a good move
2) a bad move
3) a good move if Ainge sings someone and a bad move if Ainge doesn't sign anyone

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

Good points here, but the questions remain. Do we need another player with true length on the wing? Long arms and reach are nice, but 6'9" si still better than 6'5" at the end of the day if everything else is equal. For example, would a Linton Johnson type player be more valuable that a Tony Allen?

This brings up another question, we need a third backup center in some opinions. Should this guy be a beast like Perk? Should he be long like POB? The beast is the easiest to fill IMO with the Jackie Butler types out there.

Lastly, I dont think the veteran off the bench position is that important. I think just having a guy like Posey, Miles, Pollard, House, PJ, etc is most valuable because of the 'comfort level' he brings to the floor. These are proven performers, Doc and GAP trust them to make good decisions and a minimum of mistakes. This is one of the 'talents' that Scalabrine brings to the table.

Besides not risky, this type of veterans are known quantities. That makes everyone more comfortable.

[nickagneta]

I believe that many of you are, unfortunately, missing the point. Speaking for myself, I wrote here, right after Posey signed with the Hornets, that the best option would probably be to re-sign Allen and House and stand pat.  But this doesn't mean one can't make an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of our current roster. When people say that this roster is "risky" and has notorious flaws, it means precisely that, not that "we don't have a chance". That's a straw man argument, something civilized people don't use. Just saying one is silly to be concerned because "nodoby knows if a rookie can step up or not" is nonsense. That's precisely the question: not knowing if a rookie can step up or not. Saying it doesn't matter because the roster will chance before the playoffs it's something I don't quite understand as well: what's exactly the point? We are talking about what we need to do to improve this roster, as it's currently built. Or saying that Ainge didn't mis-calculated anything. How do you know? How do you know Ainge didn't gamble with Posey, missed his fallbacks while doing it and then Posey's agent didn't allow him to match the Hornets' offer?

Another fallacy is using an argumentum ad verecundiam. That's in very bad taste, IMO. Let me ask you something: do you consider signing another veteran, say, Bonzi Wells or some backup center, in the next few weeks:
1) a good move
2) a bad move
3) a good move if Ainge sings someone and a bad move if Ainge doesn't sign anyone

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

Good points here, but the questions remain. Do we need another player with true length on the wing? Long arms and reach are nice, but 6'9" si still better than 6'5" at the end of the day if everything else is equal. For example, would a Linton Johnson type player be more valuable that a Tony Allen?

This brings up another question, we need a third backup center in some opinions. Should this guy be a beast like Perk? Should he be long like POB? The beast is the easiest to fill IMO with the Jackie Butler types out there.

Lastly, I dont think the veteran off the bench position is that important. I think just having a guy like Posey, Miles, Pollard, House, PJ, etc is most valuable because of the 'comfort level' he brings to the floor. These are proven performers, Doc and GAP trust them to make good decisions and a minimum of mistakes. This is one of the 'talents' that Scalabrine brings to the table.

Besides not risky, this type of veterans are known quantities. That makes everyone more comfortable.

I'm not sure about anyone else but to me the body makeup and overall athleticism means less to me than does whether they can actually get the job done or not.

For example, if we hadn't yet signed POB and knowing what we know about our needs in the middle, would you have preferred the long, athletic POB or the shorter, more productive and more experienced Kurt Thomas? Personally I think it's a no brainer. I don't care that Thomas is only 6-9 he is a proven 10 PPG and 8 RPG performer and has been against some of the best.

I think it was Vince Lombardi that first keyed the philosophy that as long as his team worried about doing their job they would win. He didn't how he matched up that was the concern for the other team. That mantra should hold true for any championship caliber team. Go out and perform and play your game. Let them worry about the match ups.

That's why I don't buy into the whole "we have to go out and get more athletic" philosophy that Doc and Danny are spouting. Drafting players that fit your system and picking up players who's known games can be used by your coach within his system is a more important aspect of player management. If the player happens to be very athletic, great.

So, Danny went out and got a bunch of athlete's, most with questionable games. Even the most positive of supporters has to agree there are a lot of question marks in the guys Danny brought in. Yes, they are all athletic, but can they be productive and do their games fit into the Celtic's system?

Would you rather have a Kurt Thomas or a POB? Would you rather have a James Posey or a Darius Miles? Would you rather have had a Tony Allen or a Delonte West? Athletic doesn't mean better!

[Mon]

Would you rather have a Kurt Thomas or a POB? Would you rather have a James Posey or a Darius Miles? Would you rather have had a Tony Allen or a Delonte West? Athletic doesn't mean better!

For 1 season I'll take Thomas and Posey but Thomas and Posey signed for OVER 33 million for the life of their MULTI-YEAR contracts!

How could Danny have justified that to the owners?  Would you really have signed them to that?  I doubt it.

If Kurt and James wanted to sign for 1 year and reasonable dollars then sure let's play make-believe and everything would have been hunky-dory...if I want to listen to fairy tales I'll just listen to political speeches.

[CoachBo]

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

  We're not completely lacking in experience. I'd expect Powe, House and Allen to get the bulk of the minutes and they're all pretty experienced.

Tony isn't experienced. And three smalls aren't going to get it done off the bench - in the regular season and most certainly not in the playoffs.

[BballTim]

The point is: at this moment our bench lacks experience, size and outside shooting. I guess we can all agree on this, no?

  We're not completely lacking in experience. I'd expect Powe, House and Allen to get the bulk of the minutes and they're all pretty experienced.

Tony isn't experienced. And three smalls aren't going to get it done off the bench - in the regular season and most certainly not in the playoffs.

  The fact that you don't like Allen's game doesn't mean he's not experienced. He's going into his 5th year.