At times, hard to stay positive over the off season moves

[nickagneta]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

[Greenback]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

Again, Pierce and KG covered a lot of sins, including a subpar head coach.

Don’t forget that KG, Posey and PJ were also part of the front court last year.

Also, Perk would have received a lower grade last year.

Further, after receiving good coaching, there is something called reaching your potential. Perk may be one of those.

Once again, please respect others viewpoints and keep the venom to a minimum.  We want this to be a great Celtics Blog where people will not be afraid to post.

[crownsy]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

Again, Pierce and KG covered a lot of sins, including a subpar head coach.

Don’t forget that KG, Posey and PJ were also part of the front court last year.

Also, Perk would have received a lower grade last year.

Further, after receiving good coaching, there is something called reaching your potential. Perk may be one of those.

Once again, please respect others viewpoints and keep the venom to a minimum.  We want this to be a great Celtics Blog where people will not be afraid to post.

so really, the reason your non-big three ratings are inherently biased, is because you considered everyone but pierce and Kg a mistake prone body who we were lucky to win with.

your rankings make MUCH more sense to me now, in all seriousness.

[Greenback]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

Again, Pierce and KG covered a lot of sins, including a subpar head coach.

Don’t forget that KG, Posey and PJ were also part of the front court last year.

Also, Perk would have received a lower grade last year.

Further, after receiving good coaching, there is something called reaching your potential. Perk may be one of those.

Once again, please respect others viewpoints and keep the venom to a minimum.  We want this to be a great Celtics Blog where people will not be afraid to post.

so really, the reason your non-big three ratings are inherently biased, is because you considered everyone but pierce and Kg a mistake prone body who we were lucky to win with.

your rankings make MUCH more sense to me now, in all seriousness.

I rated Pierce A- and KG an A.  Ray a B.  Posey would have been a B and PJ a B- or C+ (don't nitpick or attack me on one or the other).  Most everyone else is near a C for average.  I am not saying they are all mistake prone bodies, I am just explaining why they were not rated higher.

[silvershamrocker]

I rated Pierce A- and KG an A.  Ray a B.  Posey would have been a B and PJ a B- or C+ (don't nitpick or attack me on one or the other).  Most everyone else is near a C for average.  I am not saying they are all mistake prone bodies, I am just explaining why they were not rated higher.

So you think we won the championship with a mostly average roster?

[Greenback]

I rated Pierce A- and KG an A.  Ray a B.  Posey would have been a B and PJ a B- or C+ (don't nitpick or attack me on one or the other).  Most everyone else is near a C for average.  I am not saying they are all mistake prone bodies, I am just explaining why they were not rated higher.

So you think we won the championship with a mostly average roster?

No.  This is not rocket science. Approximate ratings for last year: Ray would have been rated a B+.  KG an A.  Pierce an A.  Posey a B.  PJ B- or C+.  Eddie C+.  That's pretty good, along with the average spare parts.

Ubuntu worked last year.  The whole was greater than the sum of the parts.  This year, by letting Big Game James walk and with PJ's status questionable, along with adding some character and work ethic questions, inexperience in its place, we may have lost some of the chemistry from last year.

If O'Bryant has a good year, I would give Cliff Ray alot of credit.  If Doc holds this team together, his score would go up, also.

After the criticism I have received here, does anyone else care to present their rankings? 

[kenmaine]

Wow, I haven't checked in for a few weeks and started off by reading the first few pages of this thread. So, I skipped to the last page to add my own comments and found what seems to be a totally different thread based on some laughable ratings of the C's players.
Anyway, back to the OP and the off-season moves, IMO they replaced a really good and clutch player, who is NOT that easily replaced, with a bunch of junk.
But with the starting five, plus House, Powe, and Big Baby, that's a hell of a team. Even though Rondo is only a C-
As for backup C, Powe and Baby can handle 90% of opposing centers, and the rest of the team is so good that they can win even if they are overmatched at center, so not a big problem IMO.
So yes, the bench is worse than last year, but there's plenty of time to add a good player if necessary.
My question marks would be-
1) What the heck was that Ray Allen slump all about?
2)Perk's shoulder, and feet
3)Finding a legitimate replacement for Posey
4)Big Baby's weight and lack of improvement over the season.
Overall, I'm very optimistic about the upcoming season and love the team- they're a pleasure to watch.

[nickagneta]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

Again, Pierce and KG covered a lot of sins, including a subpar head coach.

Don’t forget that KG, Posey and PJ were also part of the front court last year.

Also, Perk would have received a lower grade last year.

Further, after receiving good coaching, there is something called reaching your potential. Perk may be one of those.

Once again, please respect others viewpoints and keep the venom to a minimum.  We want this to be a great Celtics Blog where people will not be afraid to post.

Just because I retorted to your opinion asking questions based on what I perceived as logical questions doesn't mean I was insulting you or spouting venom or being disrespectful.

Critiquing your grades by calling some of them illogical is not insulting or disrespectful or spouting venom. It is only giving my opinion on your opinion.

Maybe others weren't too nice to you but please don't lump me in with those people simply because I don't agree with your viewpoint and brought up contradictory views. That, quite honestly, isn't fair to me.

I've read a lot of your other posts and find your opinion to be very good on most occasions and in line with my thinking. You obviously aren't now. I thought you so off base that i thought you may have been purposely trying to be contradictory or flammable just to have fun.

I'm not a big believer in grades but if you want my opinion on each of the people mentioned here it is:

Perk - I think he's too young to believe he has reached his peak. Just being around the savvy vets that he is and being the intelligent guy that he is I still see more to come from Perk. Eventually I see him being one of the best players at defending big guys in the league. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect 9 PPG, 6-7 RPG, and 1.5-2.0 BPG in 30 MPG action this year.

Rondo - I think he has future All-Star written all over him. He will be among the best defensive PGs in the game this year and I expect at the least a 2nd Team All-Defense at the end of the year. His shot is ugly but was much improved from his rookie year. I think with more work and a bit more confidence we'll see a lot less hesitation from him when he's wide open this year. 11 PPG, 6 APG, 4-5 RPG, 2.0-2-5 SPG and 1 BPG is in range for what he can do this year.

Garnett - look for KG to be playing a lot less center this year and because of it I see him becoming more of a force on the defensive glass. He should return to his double digit rebound number and be right around 20 PPG. Another great year for KG.

Pierce - if there's one guy on the team that might take a bit of a backwards step this year it's Pierce. Not much mind you but I don't see nearly the slashing and taking it to the bucket as much this year and because of that his FTs and PPG will dip slightly. I'd also love to see him come out with that defensive fire again but he's never played defense here two yers in a row.

Ray Allen - I see Doc doing a lot more with Ray this year as he demonstrated in the playoffs that his offensive game is more than just outside shooting. Look for more screens coming Ray's way with maybe Pierce doing a bit more of the outside shooting. 20 PPG and 4 APG sounds right for Ray this year.

Giddens and Walker - I fully expect both players to be putting in tons of time in the NBDL. There's just not enough PT to go around to get them the consistent minutes they will need to develop. NBDL and DNP-not dressed will be in line for this season.

Miles - I don't see him making this club.

O'Bryant - never saw him play, ever. I don't know what to expect. I've seen some You Tube stuff on him and he looks long, fast and big. If he gives the team a constant 8-10 MPG this year I call the signing okay. If he does that and is somewhat productive, I'll like the signing.

House - he is what he is. Gritty, tough, not a great ball handler and a SG in a PG's body. I'd love to see him play some alongside Pruitt this year but alas, this guy is on the team.....

Tony Allen - never a fan of his game. I think his defense is over rated and I don't find that he's appreciably better than when we drafted him. His shot might be uglier than Rondo's. Considering the other options on the bench I expect to see a bunch of Tony Allen this year and hopefully will watch him be trade bait for someone better mid season.

Powe - Powe is solid. He's a garbageman with balls. He just Energizer Bunny's that ball to the rim when he has the ball underneath. he might be one of the best guys in the league at successfully stepping in front of people and drawing charges. He should see a regular 20 MPG.

Davis - here I am torn and reserve judgment based on seeing what type of shape he has in camp and whether he can keep that shape through the first quarter of the season if he has in fact lost weight. If he hasn't lost weight he will see less minutes than last year. If he comes in shape POB might not be getting that 8-10 MPG because Baby will be the back up center.

Scal - he's practice fodder that will play if someone gets hurt. Nothing more.

Pruitt - I actually saw a lot of Gabe at USC and really thought he was a hell of a player. He is going to surprise people this year. I really believe that.

Doc - I think he's a strong coach with vets and can be instructive to younger players. His in game rotation and substitution patterns are questionable but got better last year and especially late in the playoffs. I really don't think he gets enough credit for being a manager of people or a manager of emotions. These are also traits needed in successful coaches and he might be among the better coaches in the league in that regard. I hate his use of small ball but admittedly he didn't have the biggest roster last year. A very good coach all in all. Among the top 10-12 best head coaches currently coaching.

Thibodeau - Coach T is a great instructor from what I have heard and having been near the bench once last year he is integral in discussing what players are doing wrong on the defensive end when they first come off the floor before Doc addresses them. He can explain the details of the defense a lot better than Doc and the two compliment each other well.

Ray - for all the stuff I said I agree with Greenback about Ray. He's an incredible big man coach and watching Powe, Baby, Perk, Al, and Gomes all get better in limited time with him is proof in the pudding.


P.S. I agreed with you on Ray as a coach, Greenback, I just thought his grade seemed astonishingly high when many of the people he coached was getting mediocre to bad grades and you were extremely hard on most of your other grades. It just didn't seem consistent or logical.

[Greenback]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

Again, Pierce and KG covered a lot of sins, including a subpar head coach.

Don’t forget that KG, Posey and PJ were also part of the front court last year.

Also, Perk would have received a lower grade last year.

Further, after receiving good coaching, there is something called reaching your potential. Perk may be one of those.

Once again, please respect others viewpoints and keep the venom to a minimum.  We want this to be a great Celtics Blog where people will not be afraid to post.

Just because I retorted to your opinion asking questions based on what I perceived as logical questions doesn't mean I was insulting you or spouting venom or being disrespectful.

Critiquing your grades by calling some of them illogical is not insulting or disrespectful or spouting venom. It is only giving my opinion on your opinion.

Maybe others weren't too nice to you but please don't lump me in with those people simply because I don't agree with your viewpoint and brought up contradictory views. That, quite honestly, isn't fair to me.

I've read a lot of your other posts and find your opinion to be very good on most occasions and in line with my thinking. You obviously aren't now. I thought you so off base that i thought you may have been purposely trying to be contradictory or flammable just to have fun.

I'm not a big believer in grades but if you want my opinion on each of the people mentioned here it is:

Perk - I think he's too young to believe he has reached his peak. Just being around the savvy vets that he is and being the intelligent guy that he is I still see more to come from Perk. Eventually I see him being one of the best players at defending big guys in the league. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect 9 PPG, 6-7 RPG, and 1.5-2.0 BPG in 30 MPG action this year.

Rondo - I think he has future All-Star written all over him. He will be among the best defensive PGs in the game this year and I expect at the least a 2nd Team All-Defense at the end of the year. His shot is ugly but was much improved from his rookie year. I think with more work and a bit more confidence we'll see a lot less hesitation from him when he's wide open this year. 11 PPG, 6 APG, 4-5 RPG, 2.0-2-5 SPG and 1 BPG is in range for what he can do this year.

Garnett - look for KG to be playing a lot less center this year and because of it I see him becoming more of a force on the defensive glass. He should return to his double digit rebound number and be right around 20 PPG. Another great year for KG.

Pierce - if there's one guy on the team that might take a bit of a backwards step this year it's Pierce. Not much mind you but I don't see nearly the slashing and taking it to the bucket as much this year and because of that his FTs and PPG will dip slightly. I'd also love to see him come out with that defensive fire again but he's never played defense here two yers in a row.

Ray Allen - I see Doc doing a lot more with Ray this year as he demonstrated in the playoffs that his offensive game is more than just outside shooting. Look for more screens coming Ray's way with maybe Pierce doing a bit more of the outside shooting. 20 PPG and 4 APG sounds right for Ray this year.

Giddens and Walker - I fully expect both players to be putting in tons of time in the NBDL. There's just not enough PT to go around to get them the consistent minutes they will need to develop. NBDL and DNP-not dressed will be in line for this season.

Miles - I don't see him making this club.

O'Bryant - never saw him play, ever. I don't know what to expect. I've seen some You Tube stuff on him and he looks long, fast and big. If he gives the team a constant 8-10 MPG this year I call the signing okay. If he does that and is somewhat productive, I'll like the signing.

House - he is what he is. Gritty, tough, not a great ball handler and a SG in a PG's body. I'd love to see him play some alongside Pruitt this year but alas, this guy is on the team.....

Tony Allen - never a fan of his game. I think his defense is over rated and I don't find that he's appreciably better than when we drafted him. His shot might be uglier than Rondo's. Considering the other options on the bench I expect to see a bunch of Tony Allen this year and hopefully will watch him be trade bait for someone better mid season.

Powe - Powe is solid. He's a garbageman with balls. He just Energizer Bunny's that ball to the rim when he has the ball underneath. he might be one of the best guys in the league at successfully stepping in front of people and drawing charges. He should see a regular 20 MPG.

Davis - here I am torn and reserve judgment based on seeing what type of shape he has in camp and whether he can keep that shape through the first quarter of the season if he has in fact lost weight. If he hasn't lost weight he will see less minutes than last year. If he comes in shape POB might not be getting that 8-10 MPG because Baby will be the back up center.

Scal - he's practice fodder that will play if someone gets hurt. Nothing more.

Pruitt - I actually saw a lot of Gabe at USC and really thought he was a hell of a player. He is going to surprise people this year. I really believe that.

Doc - I think he's a strong coach with vets and can be instructive to younger players. His in game rotation and substitution patterns are questionable but got better last year and especially late in the playoffs. I really don't think he gets enough credit for being a manager of people or a manager of emotions. These are also traits needed in successful coaches and he might be among the better coaches in the league in that regard. I hate his use of small ball but admittedly he didn't have the biggest roster last year. A very good coach all in all. Among the top 10-12 best head coaches currently coaching.

Thibodeau - Coach T is a great instructor from what I have heard and having been near the bench once last year he is integral in discussing what players are doing wrong on the defensive end when they first come off the floor before Doc addresses them. He can explain the details of the defense a lot better than Doc and the two compliment each other well.

Ray - for all the stuff I said I agree with Greenback about Ray. He's an incredible big man coach and watching Powe, Baby, Perk, Al, and Gomes all get better in limited time with him is proof in the pudding.


P.S. I agreed with you on Ray as a coach, Greenback, I just thought his grade seemed astonishingly high when many of the people he coached was getting mediocre to bad grades and you were extremely hard on most of your other grades. It just didn't seem consistent or logical.

Thank you, nickagneta.  What grades would you give each player according to your evaluations of each?

[bucknersrevenge]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

Again, Pierce and KG covered a lot of sins, including a subpar head coach.

Don’t forget that KG, Posey and PJ were also part of the front court last year.

Also, Perk would have received a lower grade last year.

Further, after receiving good coaching, there is something called reaching your potential. Perk may be one of those.

Once again, please respect others viewpoints and keep the venom to a minimum.  We want this to be a great Celtics Blog where people will not be afraid to post.

Just because I retorted to your opinion asking questions based on what I perceived as logical questions doesn't mean I was insulting you or spouting venom or being disrespectful.

Critiquing your grades by calling some of them illogical is not insulting or disrespectful or spouting venom. It is only giving my opinion on your opinion.

Maybe others weren't too nice to you but please don't lump me in with those people simply because I don't agree with your viewpoint and brought up contradictory views. That, quite honestly, isn't fair to me.

I've read a lot of your other posts and find your opinion to be very good on most occasions and in line with my thinking. You obviously aren't now. I thought you so off base that i thought you may have been purposely trying to be contradictory or flammable just to have fun.

I'm not a big believer in grades but if you want my opinion on each of the people mentioned here it is:

Perk - I think he's too young to believe he has reached his peak. Just being around the savvy vets that he is and being the intelligent guy that he is I still see more to come from Perk. Eventually I see him being one of the best players at defending big guys in the league. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect 9 PPG, 6-7 RPG, and 1.5-2.0 BPG in 30 MPG action this year.

Rondo - I think he has future All-Star written all over him. He will be among the best defensive PGs in the game this year and I expect at the least a 2nd Team All-Defense at the end of the year. His shot is ugly but was much improved from his rookie year. I think with more work and a bit more confidence we'll see a lot less hesitation from him when he's wide open this year. 11 PPG, 6 APG, 4-5 RPG, 2.0-2-5 SPG and 1 BPG is in range for what he can do this year.

Garnett - look for KG to be playing a lot less center this year and because of it I see him becoming more of a force on the defensive glass. He should return to his double digit rebound number and be right around 20 PPG. Another great year for KG.

Pierce - if there's one guy on the team that might take a bit of a backwards step this year it's Pierce. Not much mind you but I don't see nearly the slashing and taking it to the bucket as much this year and because of that his FTs and PPG will dip slightly. I'd also love to see him come out with that defensive fire again but he's never played defense here two yers in a row.

Ray Allen - I see Doc doing a lot more with Ray this year as he demonstrated in the playoffs that his offensive game is more than just outside shooting. Look for more screens coming Ray's way with maybe Pierce doing a bit more of the outside shooting. 20 PPG and 4 APG sounds right for Ray this year.

Giddens and Walker - I fully expect both players to be putting in tons of time in the NBDL. There's just not enough PT to go around to get them the consistent minutes they will need to develop. NBDL and DNP-not dressed will be in line for this season.

Miles - I don't see him making this club.

O'Bryant - never saw him play, ever. I don't know what to expect. I've seen some You Tube stuff on him and he looks long, fast and big. If he gives the team a constant 8-10 MPG this year I call the signing okay. If he does that and is somewhat productive, I'll like the signing.

House - he is what he is. Gritty, tough, not a great ball handler and a SG in a PG's body. I'd love to see him play some alongside Pruitt this year but alas, this guy is on the team.....

Tony Allen - never a fan of his game. I think his defense is over rated and I don't find that he's appreciably better than when we drafted him. His shot might be uglier than Rondo's. Considering the other options on the bench I expect to see a bunch of Tony Allen this year and hopefully will watch him be trade bait for someone better mid season.

Powe - Powe is solid. He's a garbageman with balls. He just Energizer Bunny's that ball to the rim when he has the ball underneath. he might be one of the best guys in the league at successfully stepping in front of people and drawing charges. He should see a regular 20 MPG.

Davis - here I am torn and reserve judgment based on seeing what type of shape he has in camp and whether he can keep that shape through the first quarter of the season if he has in fact lost weight. If he hasn't lost weight he will see less minutes than last year. If he comes in shape POB might not be getting that 8-10 MPG because Baby will be the back up center.

Scal - he's practice fodder that will play if someone gets hurt. Nothing more.

Pruitt - I actually saw a lot of Gabe at USC and really thought he was a hell of a player. He is going to surprise people this year. I really believe that.

Doc - I think he's a strong coach with vets and can be instructive to younger players. His in game rotation and substitution patterns are questionable but got better last year and especially late in the playoffs. I really don't think he gets enough credit for being a manager of people or a manager of emotions. These are also traits needed in successful coaches and he might be among the better coaches in the league in that regard. I hate his use of small ball but admittedly he didn't have the biggest roster last year. A very good coach all in all. Among the top 10-12 best head coaches currently coaching.

Thibodeau - Coach T is a great instructor from what I have heard and having been near the bench once last year he is integral in discussing what players are doing wrong on the defensive end when they first come off the floor before Doc addresses them. He can explain the details of the defense a lot better than Doc and the two compliment each other well.

Ray - for all the stuff I said I agree with Greenback about Ray. He's an incredible big man coach and watching Powe, Baby, Perk, Al, and Gomes all get better in limited time with him is proof in the pudding.


P.S. I agreed with you on Ray as a coach, Greenback, I just thought his grade seemed astonishingly high when many of the people he coached was getting mediocre to bad grades and you were extremely hard on most of your other grades. It just didn't seem consistent or logical.

Thank you, nickagneta.  What grades would you give each player according to your evaluations of each?

Obsessed with these grades aren't you?

[BillfromBoston]

Again, please explain the coaching grade of A- for Clifford Ray. You say that these grades don't reflect last year but this coming year. All of the big men that Clifford Ray coaches have mediocre to bad grades.

Perk C-
O'Bryant D+
Powe C
Davis C-
Scalabrini D

Let's face it, KG was an A for a decade before he even got here. But Clifford Ray has worked with Perk, Scal and Powe for 2 years going on 3, with Davis for 1 year going on 2 and now an entire summer with POB.

How does he deserve an A- if none of his pupils are any good?

 

His best pupil, Big Al, has been traded.  Perk and Powe have improved.  Baby, not sure.  O'Bryant, let's hope.

You make no sense. You're giving Clifford Ray a grade for this year based on work he did two years ago when he worked for one calendar year with one player. Perk started improving by leaps and bounds before Ray was even working with him. Last year's improvement is easily attributable to Perk being healthy for the first time in 3 years.

Here is what you said:

"Each player is ranked for how well they play their position relative to the rest of the league.....

Do not compare last year with this year."

Well, let's assume that Clifford Ray is an A- coach like you say. Wouldn't that mean that he probably improved the games of the players he coached last year so that this year's grades would be better. Isn't that logical?

If you agree with that then wouldn't it be logical to assume that these same players must have had worse grades last year?

If so does that mean the Celtics won not only 66 games but also a championship last year with a front line that was graded seriously below that of the average front line in basketball since the highest grade last year for any of them would have been C- or lower?

And if it is true that the Celtics front line last year and this year is below average as compared to their other NBA brethren, then shouldn't Doc Rivers receive a higher grade than C- for not only winning a championship but also taking this team with a below average front line and below average PG position to 55 wins this year, the Atlantic Division title, and a trip to the ECF? Shouldn't a coach managing such a poor group of players get a better grade if he gets such good production and results from so many marginal players?

I'm sorry Greenback but this makes no logical sense. You say Clifford Ray is a great coach but his coaching doesn't make his players any better than average. So apparently they weren't very good to begin with but somehow a below average coach, Doc, took this collection of below average talent, with the exception of 3 players, to an NBA Championship.

I don't buy it. I think you're just trying to purposely get people worked up.

Nick, just listen to what the man said and don't get "excited" about these grades too much--they are 90% wrong, straight up...no need to dissect the "wrongness" to the Nth degree...

[Greenback]

I don't see anyone posting their grades on the players and coaches. 

The one set of evaluations I did see does not strike me as players deserving a rating above average other than KG, Pierce and Ray.  Certainly the projected stats mentioned for Perk and Rondo do not make a compelling case for a above average rating.  It appears we are not that far apart after all. 

The league is full of average players.  They have skills. 

But what needs to be considered is that one or two outstanding players on a roster can make a big difference.  Because we added KG and Ray to Pierce we leveraged that talent differential between true stars and average players in the league and we won the title.  But let's not have irrational exuberance and think we have a roster full of all stars because of it.

[nickagneta]

I don't see anyone posting their grades on the players and coaches. 

The one set of evaluations I did see does not strike me as players deserving a rating above average other than KG, Pierce and Ray.  Certainly the projected stats mentioned for Perk and Rondo do not make a compelling case for a above average rating.  It appears we are not that far apart after all. 

The league is full of average players.  They have skills. 

But what needs to be considered is that one or two outstanding players on a roster can make a big difference.  Because we added KG and Ray to Pierce we leveraged that talent differential between true stars and average players in the league and we won the title.  But let's not have irrational exuberance and think we have a roster full of all stars because of it.

Again I'm not big into grades but you are wrong if you think that I thin Perk and Rondo are average players. At 22 and 23 years old both are among the best defenders at their positions in the league and although you stress offense for a PG I stress defense for every position. It's real simple, defense is a matter of desire and if players play great defense then it's a whole lot easier for a team as a whole to be better than their collective parts. I'm not so sure the same thing can be said about offensive minded players who won't play defense.

Perk is above average for sure and I don't care what his numbers say, that's probably attributable to the fact that he's the last offensive option on the floor and the Celtics are good rebounders at every position. Those facts will keep his numbers down.

Rondo for a third year PG is way ahead of where most 20 year old PGs drafted late in the third round should be. He will be among the top 3 best defensive PGs this year. That alone makes him above average. He is also deadly fast of the dribble, a very good passer, and has an improving shot. My guess is ask the other 29 teams in the league if they want to swap starting PGs and you will probably have 25 say yes. That is not an average PG.

KG, Ray, and Pierce are all extraordinary.

The bench does leave something to be desired. Miles won't make the team, Pruitt, Giddens, Walker, and O'Bryant are all rookies in my eyes. Scal and Tony Allen are good defenders, not good like Perk, KG, Rondo and Pierce, but good. Their offensive games are terrible. IMO, below average players.

Eddie House is one of the more dangerous three point threats off the bench in the league and might have one of the fastest catch and releases in the game. Above average 2nd PG who could probably start for a couple of teams.

Powe and Baby are average but have the ability to get better and become well above average role players. Sometimes one can be average but fit a role on a team perfectly and hence become above average. I think these two fit that description.

So this is why I started this thread and said I wasn't crazy about Danny's off season moves. Danny brought back potential and average to below average guys. The starters are fantastic and I think will carry this team to another Finals. But this team could well be spent by that time if none of the potentials work into something that resembles an NBA player. Danny just didn't do enough to bring in some experienced average to above average guys and that really disappointed me.

I love potential when you suck but when you have a proven championship team I want proven talent.

[Birdbrain]

You mean he didn't resign Posey? I don't get the angst.  But to each his own. 

Boston repeats.

[nickagneta]

You mean he didn't resign Posey? I don't get the angst.  But to each his own. 

Boston repeats.

No as I said from the get go the guys I wanted were Kurt Thomas, Roger Mason and a defensive type SF. I thought that Thomas and Mason would bring some offensive pop to the bench as well as some experience and that a good defensive SF was also needed.

I said this well before the Posey, House, and Allen signings.