At times, hard to stay positive over the off season moves

[crownsy]

Plus, let's also be honest with Kendrick Perkins. People are huge fans of him, mainly well...because he's young. But, Perkins is NOT a legitimate, top-tier center. Perkins game is rather one-dimensonial. He's a decent rebounder and aggresive. But he isn't mobile.

In My opinion, that isn't being honest...it is being wrong.  But you are entitled  to you opinion. 

Perkins made the leap last year to become one of the top defensive centers in the league...some might even argue that he became the best (especially if you are counting guys like Duncan as PFs).

Perkins is not the fastest player in the world, but he is incredibly mobile on the defensive end.  He was absolutely incredible last year at blitzing the perimeter, and then actually sticking with the switches on the perimeter.  To me, that is mobile enough.

He is a liability offensively though, and that can be an issue if you want him on the floor at the end of games (although he showed a good deal of improvement by the end of the year).  But when you look around the league, you will notice that there are very few (as in less than 4 or 5) centers who are above average both offensively and defensively.  So you simply are not going to do better than Perk there.

I do agree that they still have a glaring hole behind Perk, but considering what was available, I have no problem with them taking a chance with O'Bryant, and then trying to fill the hole later in the season, either through a trade or a FA signing (like PJ).

TP chris, people underestimate perk on defense because he isn't a scorer. perk is a top 5 true center on defense. i mean, right now, name me 5 better defenisive centers. and im not talking guys like KG and bosh, PF's who sometimes play the 5, im talking about pure centers. TD and camby certainly are better, but then perk's in the disscusion.

and thats his job. we have 4 other really good offensive threats. Perk's job is to be a beast, and he does it well. not sure what people "overrate" about him. most think he's a very good defensive player who sin't a huge threat on offense.

[BillfromBoston]

Historically, players tend to perform better in the NBA if they were chosen earlier in the draft. Players picked in the lottery tend to be All-Stars more than those picked in the 20-30 range; players picked in the 20-30 tend to hang in the league more frequently than those picked in the 2nd round, etc. That's why it's a good predictive instrument. On the other hand, I don't think that the position of the players in mock drafts before their 1st college season or similar indications are so good. As we all know, there are exceptions.

"If they were as mediocre as many are making out, Ainge wouldn't have taken them over safer, more low-risk alternatives"

Well, in all fairness, Ainge indeed tried to sign some veterans, safer more low-risk alternatives. I believe this shows he's not very confortable with the present scenario. In fact, I believe that, at some point before the playoffs, some veterans will be added to the present roster.

But the main point in this issue is that no discussion is possible using an argumentum ad verecundiam, an argument by authority. It's a fallacy. One thing is saying "Ainge has a good track-record, so one can be positive about the value of these players". With that I agree. Other is saying "Ainge has a good track-record, so one must be positive about the value of this roster". I don't agree with that because we don't even know if Ainge is in fact that positive. For once, we all know he's not sure about O'Bryant being ready to contribute in the playoffs or that BBD can backup the 5.

I liked PJ Brown and regarded him as a valuable role player. He was a good addition to the squad and I thought he was rightfully the first big off the bench.

I also thought the C's would be fine with Davis and Powe in the playoffs prior to the PJ addition. So while it's a loss the C's have decent cover for him.

I would like to see a backup big with length acquired though. The C's will likely face longer opponents next season with Phily, Orlando, Cleveland looking dangerous in the East and with several Western teams with good bigs, especially the Lakers with Bynum returning. It doesn't necessarily need to be a replacement for PJ, a first big off the bench ... but I would like someone who can be the fourth of fifth big in the rotation to fill that need, someone who's capable. That hasn't been filled yet.

Very well written. I fully agree with this, except that I never thought that Powe and BBD would be enough to the playoffs (and I still don't).

....look at the offers he made to those veterans...all minimum deals for 2 or less years...that shows me what he thinks of the youth right there...if he was completely uncomfortable with them he'd have spent more of the MLE money to get them, ownership OK'd use of the MLE, but they had value on guys...Ainge placed the value on vets outside of Posey and Maggette as being minimal relative to the risk he was willing to take with the youngsters...

...most likely because he knows that vets will be available later, if and when needed..

[Chris]

....look at the offers he made to those veterans...all minimum deals for 2 or less years...that shows me what he thinks of the youth right there...if he was completely uncomfortable with them he'd have spent more of the MLE money to get them, ownership OK'd use of the MLE, but they had value on guys...Ainge placed the value on vets outside of Posey and Maggette as being minimal relative to the risk he was willing to take with the youngsters...

...most likely because he knows that vets will be available later, if and when needed..

I agree completely.  This was a very weak MLE Free Agent Class.  There simply were not many players worth paying.  Since most of the class was mediocre, it makes more sense to save the money, give the kids a chance to prove themselves, and then try again at midseason, when you have a better idea of your needs, and there might be more players available by either Free agency or trade.  Seems like a very sound decision.

[BillfromBoston]

The PJ Brown anouncement only further substantiates what Chris, BudweiserCeltic, Tim,and I have been saying...

Well-run teams with savvy front office chiefs, like Ainge, don't make single, isolated moves, like Nick stated previously.

Moves are made to fit within a plan, the further out the time line the more variables are left un-accounted for, so the moves with long-term implications are made with a "sliding scale" in terms of their low and high potential outcome.

While everyone has been arguing about Patrick O'Bryant and the rest of the youth, it is VERY, VERY probable that Ainge discussed Brown's future plans with him at the end-of-year wrap up and was informed that Brown would be willing to come back again if and when needed.

This helped Ainge to make his commitment to POB, because he knew that he could acquire a veteran backup later in the year by calling Brown for another title hunt. Instead of getting another mediocre vet early on, Ainge now has a chance to develop POB over the first 50 games of the season to see what he'd got.

Therefore, it is also EXTREMELY likely that Ainge has a "worst case" scenario gamed out in the event that none of the current wing players can fill the back up role.

The players available on the FA market this off-season were exceptionally mediocre outside of Maggette and Posey. We saw how much Ainge valued them by the offers he floated-minimum money for each and every one.

Considering the situation with Davis/Powe and considering the wealth of young talent currently on the roster,it is entirely likely that Ainge believes that it will be relatively easy to acquire a solid veteran wing later in the year, if and when needed.

He clearly shares the concerns of the more conservative members of this board in that he has shown his interest in having veteran insurance at the wing and in the frontcourt, but the VALUE he placed on the available options should show you how dire he feels that need is at the present time.

IF and WHEN necissary, Ainge will make a trade for a wing and bring PJ Brown back for another hurrah...getting a wing player, a veteran wing to play off the bench, is pretty much the easiest thing to do in basketball. Wing players are a dime a dozen position and getting the type of talent that this team would need from that position isn't very hard to do.

To name a few:

Dallas: Eddie Jones, Devean George, Jerry Stackhouse (not enough time for each, all cheap with short years)
Golden State: Steven Jackson (somewhat redundant with Maggette and team doesn't want to extend)
Clippers: Tim Thomas (expiring and they need a PF who could start for them)
Memphis: Hakim Warrick (another team needing PF depth, Warrick backs up 3 and 4, could be moved)
Milwaukee: Charlie V (unlikely to be re-signed and for good reason, but possible rental..future Tim Thomas in the making)
Minnesota: Brian Cardinal, Corey Brewer (long shots, but both could be on the block by mid-season. Cardinal is available for all takers, Brewer is fighting for his job with a number of wings who are both young and talented)
New Jersey: Trenton Hassell, Bobby Simmons (inner-division trade unlikely, but possible considering the different stages these guys are in.)
New Orleans: Rasual Butler (just became expendible with Posey coming in)
New York: Quentin Richardson (if he's healthy, he could contribute..2 year deal doesn't hurt the window Ainge is building)
Phoenix: Grant Hill (depending on what happens in Phx, could be available)
Seattle/OKC: Damian Wilkins

...and then their are all the un-signed vets who will be out of work due to financial restrictions and roster spots...and of course, we have our very own Brian Scalabrine who surely can fill the 12 minutes vacated by James Posey at the 3...he may not be much, but he can defend...

[Greenback]

We will miss Posey for sure.  Who will take charges like Big Game James?  The C's should have found the money.

PJ was invaluable during our playoff run.  Who will lock down the bigs like he did? 

Sam I Am has forgot more about basketball than  Giddens and Pruitt will ever know.  Rondo is wildly inconsistent and inexperienced.

Perk and O'Bryant are probably below average.

We have the Big 3 and little else.  They are a little older and currently don't have the veteran reserves they did last year.  55 wins and out in the second round of the playoffs is about where we are for next year.

[nickagneta]

We will miss Posey for sure.  Who will take charges like Big Game James?  The C's should have found the money.

PJ was invaluable during our playoff run.  Who will lock down the bigs like he did? 

Sam I Am has forgot more about basketball than  Giddens and Pruitt will ever know.  Rondo is wildly inconsistent and inexperienced.

Perk and O'Bryant are probably below average.

We have the Big 3 and little else.  They are a little older and currently don't have the veteran reserves they did last year.  55 wins and out in the second round of the playoffs is about where we are for next year.

Okay, so I'm not crazy about Ainge's off season moves and even though Danny had an extraordinary year last year, I don't think he's quite the forward thinking person Billfrom Boston makes him out to be. But that doesn't mean I'm down on the season or some of the talent that you are Greenback.

Rondo is not wildly inconsistent. His defensive pressure is extremely consistent to the point of possibly being All-Defensive First Team sometime soon. As for inexperienced after playing 110 games last year and leading the team to a championship as a 22 year old PG, he's probably more experienced than some young PGs that have been in the league longer than him but haven't experienced playoff basketball. If Rondo's comments were true about needing to get back to work on his game shortly after a trip to see his buddy Perk in Florida in July, I expect a near All-Star type quality out of him. His game grew leaps and bounds last year and I think the expectation of another leap forward isn't asking a lot.

Perk is nowhere near a below average center. He is probably top 3-4 defensive centers in the league and although he's option #5 on the floor, he probably will be scoring a bit more this year. His hook is ugly but started becoming very consistent at the end of the year and through the playoffs. When the C's get him involved early on in games Perk was consistently a 10 PPG player. And he's still only 23 and his game is still growing.

How anyone couldn't expect bigger things out of Perk and Rondo this year considering they are playing with 3 players that will make them better and they will have another year of chemistry with said players, is beyond me. I can't wait to see this starting five together again. They are the best in the league and should only get better with familiarity.

As for vets off the bench, Eddie is still there with his lightening fast release and grit and range and for all the warts in his game Tony Allen still does bring a veteran defensive presence against bigger PGs and 2 guards. Not to mention that PJ Brown has already hinted at an All Star return once again and that Powe is in his third year and brings a very consistent game.

I'm surprised at your overall pessimism considering Posey is really the only player they lost and that losing Sam Cassell is addition by subtraction given the way that he played last year for the Celtics.

I think a return to the Finals is extremely likely and as long as the team is healthy, I think they will be very hard to beat.

[bolvbball]

Ainge gambled and lost on the Posey deal.He wasted a lot time, to make up for it,he assembled a few

 unproven players,and a few rejects.Daruis Miles might turn out to be the PacMan version of

the NFL...hope he can say  "Strip Club" in a press conference ,unlike  PacMan's "Script Club" version.

Professional sports just not what it use to be,IQ came alone with athleticism.

[CoachBo]

We will miss Posey for sure.  Who will take charges like Big Game James?  The C's should have found the money.

PJ was invaluable during our playoff run.  Who will lock down the bigs like he did? 

Sam I Am has forgot more about basketball than  Giddens and Pruitt will ever know.  Rondo is wildly inconsistent and inexperienced.

Perk and O'Bryant are probably below average.

We have the Big 3 and little else.  They are a little older and currently don't have the veteran reserves they did last year.  55 wins and out in the second round of the playoffs is about where we are for next year.

Okay, so I'm not crazy about Ainge's off season moves and even though Danny had an extraordinary year last year, I don't think he's quite the forward thinking person Billfrom Boston makes him out to be. But that doesn't mean I'm down on the season or some of the talent that you are Greenback.

Rondo is not wildly inconsistent. His defensive pressure is extremely consistent to the point of possibly being All-Defensive First Team sometime soon. As for inexperienced after playing 110 games last year and leading the team to a championship as a 22 year old PG, he's probably more experienced than some young PGs that have been in the league longer than him but haven't experienced playoff basketball. If Rondo's comments were true about needing to get back to work on his game shortly after a trip to see his buddy Perk in Florida in July, I expect a near All-Star type quality out of him. His game grew leaps and bounds last year and I think the expectation of another leap forward isn't asking a lot.

Perk is nowhere near a below average center. He is probably top 3-4 defensive centers in the league and although he's option #5 on the floor, he probably will be scoring a bit more this year. His hook is ugly but started becoming very consistent at the end of the year and through the playoffs. When the C's get him involved early on in games Perk was consistently a 10 PPG player. And he's still only 23 and his game is still growing.

How anyone couldn't expect bigger things out of Perk and Rondo this year considering they are playing with 3 players that will make them better and they will have another year of chemistry with said players, is beyond me. I can't wait to see this starting five together again. They are the best in the league and should only get better with familiarity.

As for vets off the bench, Eddie is still there with his lightening fast release and grit and range and for all the warts in his game Tony Allen still does bring a veteran defensive presence against bigger PGs and 2 guards. Not to mention that PJ Brown has already hinted at an All Star return once again and that Powe is in his third year and brings a very consistent game.

I'm surprised at your overall pessimism considering Posey is really the only player they lost and that losing Sam Cassell is addition by subtraction given the way that he played last year for the Celtics.

I think a return to the Finals is extremely likely and as long as the team is healthy, I think they will be very hard to beat.

I guess I fall in the middle here. I understand where Greenback is coming from, but I do gravitate toward Nick in that I think your pessimism is overstated.
There's NO question about my dissatisfaction with this summer, and with my steadfast belief that James Posey wasn't the place to pinch the NBA equivalent of pennies. And there's no question that I do believe this bench has been stripped all but bare. We will not win 66 games with this crew, and I don't think 55 is an unrealistic number at all.

But ... I also don't disregard the potential - the word, IMHO, is necessity - for future moves to bolster the bench and I applaud Ainge for keeping the red line open to PJ Brown Central. And I also saw playoff flashes that lead me to believe that, as a former critic, Perkins can evolve into a better than average player. I am certain, frankly, that experience will level off the ups and downs in Rondo's game.

My fear is this: Grousbeck is satisfied with one title, and took the dollar bills out of Ainge's wallet. There's really little other believable explanation for the sheer tightwad-ness that went into the Posey negotiations. He should have been resigned to complete the two or three-year title window, and then his contract passed on as an expiring to a team looking for cap room - if necessary. It's pollyanna-ish to believe that this bench is the equal of last years, much as it was equally silly to believe Ainge could ever build a winner with the crew we disposed of last summer.

It's been a very negative summer, in my opinion, and a definitive step back toward the pack in the Eastern Conference. We don't have a backup 5, we don't have sufficient bench outside shooting and our stars are at risk of minutes that endanger their late season health. I am not comforted by the multitude of declarative, yet factually unbacked, statements on this board about the pending greatness of Tony Allen - a player we declined to make a qualifying offer to and a player we would have happily allowed to walk save the Posey mistake - and the one I'm really chuckling over - that all of our summer additions are lottery picks.

None of this, however, closes the door on a repeat. Whether we make the Finals, and whether we repeat, depends entirely, I think, on Ainge's willingness to address these weaknesses sooner, rather than later. Danny's not a wizard, as Nick points out, and he certainly didn't draw up a plan calling for two teams to discard their stars for pennies on the dollar. He's a human being, a GM with a decidedly mixed resume who adroitly combined opportunity and luck in one top-quality summer, one that should not have been undone in any way, shape or form.

[bucknersrevenge]

Ainge gambled and lost on the Posey deal.He wasted a lot time, to make up for it,he assembled a few

 unproven players,and a few rejects.Daruis Miles might turn out to be the PacMan version of

the NFL...hope he can say  "Strip Club" in a press conference ,unlike  PacMan's "Script Club" version.

Professional sports just not what it use to be,IQ came alone with athleticism.

I disagree. Danny didn't waste time. While he made his measured offer to Posey, he also made another to Maggz. He also made some minimum offers to other Free Agents as well. Beyond that, Danny didn't deem there much much value in the other wing Free Agents. Some people say they would rather have a veteran player; a "known quantity". Thing is, sometimes that's just the problem. You know what you're going to get from them isnt that much. Apoint being overlooked here that I don't believe has been mentioned is Danny and Doc's desire to field a team that was LESS dependant on the 3 to survive, less "athletically deprived" and more able to manufacture offense without Paul having to play major minutes. And I guarantee you bringing back Posey would have solved absolutely ZERO of those problems.

The only thing Danny placed value on was the 12 or minutes of time Posey spent at the 3. They replaced his minutes at the 4 internally with Powe and BBD. You don't pay Posey $7mil a season to play 15-20minutes. I'm sorry thats just bad business. And as noted by others Danny does have the fans luxury of thinking just about the next 5 minutes. Each move is not made and cannot be judged in a vacuum.

Would they have liked to bring back Posey? Absolutely. But considering what Danny and Doc set out to accomplish this offseason in terms of how they wanted to remake their team I'd have to consider it a success. They wanted to get more athletic. They've done that. They brought back a healthy Tony Allen which is a solid defender. They added a young talent projected to play NBA-caliber defense right now and they took advantage of their experience and last season's success. Ideally you want to added good, young talent into the fold when they walk into a solid veteran presence with instant credibility. Even the young guys from last season's team have credibility now. They have GPA. I think Perk entering his 6th season can be considered a veteran now. House off the bench is a fine veteran presence. His attitude is exactly what I'd want any Celtic off the bench to imitate. Adding young talent now in the perfect position to groom it how you want is how you build towards the future and remain competitive past a simple 2 year window.

[ManUp]

 I'm not at all worried about us making it through the regular season with such a lineup. As long as the Big 3 are healthy and on there game we're basically guaranteed 50+ wins. I'm definitely worried about the post season with this team. The post season is where weaknesses are exposed and exploited and we have a few. Our bench lacks size, experience, and shooting. Our bench consists of players with questions about health, attituted, and work ethic. Some of those players have never played any meaningful minutes in the nba much less the play-offs. We definitely don't have the ideal bench right now.

With all that said I still feel very confident in this team. I just get the feeling that things will work out.

[ACF]

I'm not too worried.
There'll be time to add
players during the season.
You know, like we added PJ.
That turned out okay 

[bucknersrevenge]

I'm not at all worried about us making it through the regular season with such a lineup. As long as the Big 3 are healthy and on there game we're basically guaranteed 50+ wins. I'm definitely worried about the post season with this team. The post season is where weaknesses are exposed and exploited and we have a few. Our bench lacks size, experience, and shooting. Our bench consists of players with questions about health, attituted, and work ethic. Some of those players have never played any meaningful minutes in the nba much less the play-offs. We definitely don't have the ideal bench right now.

With all that said I still feel very confident in this team. I just get the feeling that things will work out.

House has both experience and shooting. Powe obviously doesn't have a ton of experience but he's performed and performed well in the Finals so that's gotta count for something.

[BballTim]

I guess I fall in the middle here. I understand where Greenback is coming from, but I do gravitate toward Nick in that I think your pessimism is overstated.
There's NO question about my dissatisfaction with this summer, and with my steadfast belief that James Posey wasn't the place to pinch the NBA equivalent of pennies. And there's no question that I do believe this bench has been stripped all but bare. We will not win 66 games with this crew, and I don't think 55 is an unrealistic number at all.

  Last year PJ barely played and we won 66 games, 45 of them by double digits. Do you really think losing Posey will make us 11 games worse? That's having us play significantly worse without Posey than we did when KG was out with the stomach problem last winter. I think you give Posey way too much credit for our success.

[Greenback]

I guess I fall in the middle here. I understand where Greenback is coming from, but I do gravitate toward Nick in that I think your pessimism is overstated.
There's NO question about my dissatisfaction with this summer, and with my steadfast belief that James Posey wasn't the place to pinch the NBA equivalent of pennies. And there's no question that I do believe this bench has been stripped all but bare. We will not win 66 games with this crew, and I don't think 55 is an unrealistic number at all.

  Last year PJ barely played and we won 66 games, 45 of them by double digits. Do you really think losing Posey will make us 11 games worse? That's having us play significantly worse without Posey than we did when KG was out with the stomach problem last winter. I think you give Posey way too much credit for our success.

We are not talking about missing Posey for a few games.  He will be gone all year, including the playoffs.

[wdleehi]

I guess I fall in the middle here. I understand where Greenback is coming from, but I do gravitate toward Nick in that I think your pessimism is overstated.
There's NO question about my dissatisfaction with this summer, and with my steadfast belief that James Posey wasn't the place to pinch the NBA equivalent of pennies. And there's no question that I do believe this bench has been stripped all but bare. We will not win 66 games with this crew, and I don't think 55 is an unrealistic number at all.

  Last year PJ barely played and we won 66 games, 45 of them by double digits. Do you really think losing Posey will make us 11 games worse? That's having us play significantly worse without Posey than we did when KG was out with the stomach problem last winter. I think you give Posey way too much credit for our success.

The concern is not really in the regular season.  The team has enough talent to be a top 2 team in the East in the regular season.



It is the playoffs that those holes are magnified.  And in the playoffs, all it takes is one blown game to change a 7 game series victory to a 7 game defeat. 





But Ainge has time to address this.  And I have to believe he will.  It might just mean one our favorite young bench players is moved.