Celtics sign O'bryant

[Andy Jick]

in all my remembrances of don nelson, it appears that he has always preferred big men who could square-up to the basket as opposed who played with a low-post/back to the basket game.  (ie. sikma, webber).

[Roy Hobbs]

Don't forget Manute Bol, who had the second best season of his career under Nellie.

Nelson will glad play shot-blocking, rebounding centers.  They just need to be willing to work and play hard. 

O'Bryant just hasn't shown the work ethic to succeed up until this point in his career.  I'm hopeful that Doc, Clifford Ray, Perk, and KG can all light a fire under him, but the Warriors didn't have much success with that.

I like this move a lot better for 2010 than I do 2009.  I still think we need another big man.

[Who]

Nellie didn't use his youngsters because they were trying to make the playoffs and the youngsters weren't ready. The Warriors had no room for error and needed to play their best players as seen by their 48 wins not being good enough for the playoffs. Nellie has said they'll be going to the youngsters more next season and that he expects both Wright and Belinelli to be in the rotation next season.

one other thing on this, are you saying that GS is not trying to make the playoffs this season? it makes the Maggette signing very strange if they are going into rebuiiding mode.

the fact of the matter is that they have to play "youngs" and should have played them more last season during the season because by the end Jax and Baron were burnt out.

their roster is the point now with so many highly thought of youngs who fit their stlye of play that they simply have to play them. it makes no sense to not play Wright, Randolph, Belinelli. it made no sense last year either with Wright and Belinelli. it wasn't like they were going to be taking PT away from players that deserved it. Nellie was playing a very short bench there.

You think they still 48 wins while teaching Belinelli and Wright how to play? I do not.

It's not like there's anyone the Warriors were playing anyone that didn't deserve their minutes. Their rotation was their best players. The only guys that played more than 500 minutes were Baron, Monta, Jackson, Harrington, Barnes, Pietrus, Azubuike and Biedrins and they all played over 1300 minutes. Who there doesn't deserve to be on the court? Who should be sacrificed for the youngsters?

Wright and Belinelli weren't ready to play at a high enough level to keep Golden State in the playoff picture which they were in right until the last week or two of the season.

[wdleehi]

He is fine as a 3rd C/project.



Celtics still need to sign a number 2 C.  Elson or Skinner sound good.  

[winsomme]

first off, Dallas didn't play run and gun. it didn't fit their best player - Dirk Nowitzki.

secondly, Bradely was not a young when he came to Dallas. plus, his career went steadily downhill in Dallas.

i have no idea what Shawn Bradely proves about POB.

you want me to give you an example of a POB type player that Nellie has held back...but the reverse is also true....how many half-court Cs has he turned into a great player? i can't find one.

and i'm not sure where to go with this discussion if you don't agree about the difference between the physical makeup of Biendrins and POB. Biendrins is a transition big and POB is your classic half court big.

I'm not sure what makes O Bryant a classic half court center. What makes him a half court center?

...................

Those Dallas teams were regularly near the top of the NBA in pace factor. They ranked fourth quickest in 2001 with Bradley logging 2000 minutes on the season. Run and gun definitely did favour their best player in Dirk (one of the most athletic bigs in the league and deadly in transition for those threes) and their second and third best players in Nash and Finley.

Bradley also had one of his best seasons under Nellie (tie for second or third best) and Bradley got worse because of age leading to retirement.

Nellie doesn't have a list of centers because he's never gotten to coach teams with talented centers for any period of time. The only centers Nellie has had with talent, he's used and they've performed well for him. That's not development but it certainly not, and nowhere close to being, hurting someone's career and holding them back.

Patrick Ewing would be the best. Ewing had better numbers and the Knicks had a better record than they did under Nellie's replacement, JVG, in 95-96. Chris Webber who won RoY while putting up 17.5ppg and 9rpg under Nellie. Next closest is Jack Sikma who again did well under Nellie but was coming towards the tail end of his career.

A less talented center would be Alton Lister, limited offensive player, who had some of the best seasons of his career under Nellie. Actually now that I think about Lister was a rookie under Nellie and improved a fair bit under Nellie. He started out as a rookie playing 15mpg under Nellie, who Nellie turned into a starter. I was thinking of his GSW days, last season of his career where he played good minutes.

Then there's also Andris Biedrins who took huge steps forward under Nellie.

There's also Eric Dampier who Nellie played more minutes and got better production out of than Avery Johnson. That was Damp's best statistical season for the Mavs and the most minutes he played while there.

Yet I see absolutely zero centers with talent who suffered under Nellie and were held back.

i asked you for a center that Nellie DEVELOPED.

believe me, we looked at the same list. and Alton Lister simply does not cut it. he had career averages of 6.6 PPG and 6.3 RPG and some of his best years in Seattle.

and DAL did not play run and gun. Dirk's bread and butter has always been in the half court sets. and the center position was one of the reasons IMO that that team never got over the top.....still is actually.

you just said yourself that Nellie didn't plays "youngs" last year because he wanted to make the playoffs and didn't have a big margin for error. so by your own observation, how much PT was POB going to have gotten?

there simply is not enough data on POB to know what he is going to be as a player in this league. that's how i see it anyway.

[winsomme]

Nellie didn't use his youngsters because they were trying to make the playoffs and the youngsters weren't ready. The Warriors had no room for error and needed to play their best players as seen by their 48 wins not being good enough for the playoffs. Nellie has said they'll be going to the youngsters more next season and that he expects both Wright and Belinelli to be in the rotation next season.

one other thing on this, are you saying that GS is not trying to make the playoffs this season? it makes the Maggette signing very strange if they are going into rebuiiding mode.

the fact of the matter is that they have to play "youngs" and should have played them more last season during the season because by the end Jax and Baron were burnt out.

their roster is the point now with so many highly thought of youngs who fit their stlye of play that they simply have to play them. it makes no sense to not play Wright, Randolph, Belinelli. it made no sense last year either with Wright and Belinelli. it wasn't like they were going to be taking PT away from players that deserved it. Nellie was playing a very short bench there.

You think they still 48 wins while teaching Belinelli and Wright how to play? I do not.

It's not like there's anyone the Warriors were playing anyone that didn't deserve their minutes. Their rotation was their best players. The only guys that played more than 500 minutes were Baron, Monta, Jackson, Harrington, Barnes, Pietrus, Azubuike and Biedrins and they all played over 1300 minutes. Who there doesn't deserve to be on the court? Who should be sacrificed for the youngsters?

Wright and Belinelli weren't ready to play at a high enough level to keep Golden State in the playoff picture which they were in right until the last week or two of the season.

well like i said, i have a friend who is a GS fan, so i have had  a lot of discussions on this team.

Azubuike, Pietrus and Barnes all drove Nellie crazy because of their inconsistent play and all fell out of favor with him at one point during the season. so, he ended up running Ellis, Baron and Jax WAY too much.

and when the team made the decision to move JRich, it was essential that these youngs get developed. Nellie simply did not want to play them. i understand why, but at the end of the day they got burned because of it.

it also hurt for this year because now Wright and Belinelli STILL don't have that much game experience....

[greg_kite]

I don't see why Nellie's opinion on O'Bryant matters anyway.  Nellie hasn't won anything significant.  His choice to go small his whole career has caused his teams to lose to bigger teams.  He has no track record of doing well with a big man, that's why people think Patty will do better playing on a defensive minded half-court type of team like the Cs.  I trust Danny's judgement on a big man much more than I would trust Nellies.

Pat is not the savior though, just a low investment guy who has potential.  I see look at him as a draft pick type of guy, like Giddens or Walker.  Don't expect much from him this year, but don't be surprised to see him fit in either.

There was some mention of Dwayne Jones earlier.  I think he would be a good backup for Perk.  I thought he would have last year too, but Danny went and got this PJ Brown guy instead.  Stupid Danny.

[winsomme]

I don't see why Nellie's opinion on O'Bryant matters anyway.  Nellie hasn't won anything significant.  His choice to go small his whole career has caused his teams to lose to bigger teams.  He has no track record of doing well with a big man, that's why people think Patty will do better playing on a defensive minded half-court type of team like the Cs.  I trust Danny's judgement on a big man much more than I would trust Nellies.

Pat is not the savior though, just a low investment guy who has potential.  I see look at him as a draft pick type of guy, like Giddens or Walker.  Don't expect much from him this year, but don't be surprised to see him fit in either.

There was some mention of Dwayne Jones earlier.  I think he would be a good backup for Perk.  I thought he would have last year too, but Danny went and got this PJ Brown guy instead.  Stupid Danny.

well, i'm not as down as you on Nellie. i really liked some of the teams that he has put out there over the years (that DAL upset being one of the best things i have ever seen in the NBA playoffs), but i agree that with POBs combination of youth and body type, he just was not going to get that much PT the past two seasons in GS. so, i'm not sure how anybody can say anything definitive about him as a player based on his time in the NBA so far.

[vjcsmoke]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/patrick_obryant/career_stats.html

POB is a young center.  And I suppose the Celtics scouts liked the potential or we wouldn't have signed him.
Very little data on him.  I'll check his college career.

Well this is what I found...
http://nbadraft.rivals.com/bviewplayer.asp?Player=47617

He was a good shotblocker in college, averaging 2.8 blocks per game.
So he probably fits the Celtics image as a defensive center that will alter shots.
Our big man coach has his work cut out for him, but it's not like there isn't some potential here.

[cdif911]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/patrick_obryant/career_stats.html

POB is a young center.  And I suppose the Celtics scouts liked the potential or we wouldn't have signed him.
Very little data on him.  I'll check his college career.

Well this is what I found...
http://nbadraft.rivals.com/bviewplayer.asp?Player=47617

He was a good shotblocker in college, averaging 2.8 blocks per game.
So he probably fits the Celtics image as a defensive center that will alter shots.
Our big man coach has his work cut out for him, but it's not like there isn't some potential here.

I think its good to see the potential.  I just think some people are jumping to conclusions a little too fast by thinking he'll be a steady backup center. He's done nothing to prove that in his career. Maybe he'll develop, but its gonna take a lot of work and effort.

[Fan from VT]

I think that Nelson has a deserved reputation for being hesitant to hand large quantities of playing time over to rookies. Take Wright, for example, who shot .554 for the season and posted a 17.29 PER for the season, but managed only 9.9 mpg in 38 games. By statistical and anecdotal measures, Wright should have been a perfect fit in Golden State but got very little time. I don't look at playing time under Nelson as any kind of indicator of future success.

O'bryant hasn't had much time, but in the limited time he's had, some things he has done well:


Minutes Per Block (lower is better, means more frequent blocks):
KG last year: 26.24
Perk last year: 16.8
O'bryant career: 14

Rebounds Per 40 Minutes (Last Year)
KG: 11.2
Perk: 9.9
O'bryant: 11.2

Offensive Rebounding Percentage:
KG: 6.7%
Perk: 8.8%
O'bryant: 9.8%

Defensive Rebounding Percentage:
KG: 22.1%
Perk: 17.1%
O'bryant: 18.8%

FG% Last Season:
KG: .539
Perk: .615
O'bryant: .552

Minutes Per Foul Last Year:
KG: 14.3
Perk: 7.9
O'bryant: 3.9

So when O'bryant is in, he blocks shots, rebounds well above average and shoots efficiently. He doesn't turn the ball over as much as Perk (not saying much). He just can't get playing time, and I don't watch enough G.S. games to be sure why, but I can guess that fouling once every four minutes is a major part of it. In fact, that is so bad that it might be the only reason for no playing time, but if not, maybe he blocks shots but can't defend other than that. Maybe he's useless on offense except for putbacks. I don't know, but it's worth a shot for low risk.

His per minute production is very close to Perk's in Perk's first two years. In KP's first year, he committed a foul every 5.8 minutes, year two was once every 5.7 minutes. KP blocked a shot every 17.5 minutes his first year, every 15.2 minutes his second year. Really, across the board O'bryant's first two seasons have been a lot like Perk's first two. In season three Perk jumped up to 19 mpg and a 5.2pt 6rb 1.5blk stat line. If our coaches can successfully help O'bryant learn to not foul, he could make a similar improvement, as his blocking instincts are better and rebounding/scoring indicators are quite similar. Oh, and it's not like Perk was making his way up very good teams either. His third season, the season he actually got decent playing time, the C's were 33-49. O'bryant has been buried behind Biedrins on an up tempo team in the wire to wire hunt for the playoffs.


And I agree that we need another big this year. I'd love Andersen next to KG spelling Perk.

[cdif911]

convincing stats fan from VT - the minutes per block are interesting - I'm not sure of our sample size of O'Bryant, as you'd expect a guy to perform at the top of his game when fresh (which is why per 40 or 48 minute stats are often misleading) but there's some optomism there, and the fouling helps explain a lot

good work, TP

[Texstyles]

I just read the Article about O'Bryant being compared to William Bedford.  Why are people doging this guy.  He hasn't proven anything I understand that, but he is young and we/NBA know nothing about him,  how he is being compared to people based on there full career production it does not make sence to me.  People need to take a wait and see aproach with this guy really.  Perkins in year 2 was not better, Perkins played 9.1 min. a game, and O'Bryant played 4.1.  If you try to equal the min. his stats are pretty much the same as Perk.  Yes, I am comparing stats like some of these other guys are,  but for the simple reason is people can go out and find a ton of players who we can compare him to,  but the truth is noone knows, and to say Kandiman is a stretch just doesn't make sence.

[Bankshot]

I'm willing to wait and see what we have in this guy.  I think everyone should.  Besides, what choice do we have anyway? It's not like we as fans can cut the guy.

[cdif911]

I'm willing to wait and see what we have in this guy.  I think everyone should.  Besides, what choice do we have anyway? It's not like we as fans can cut the guy.

bankshot, you've just invented a reality show