Author Topic: Doc wants all back  (Read 20124 times)

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Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2008, 10:37:20 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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I don't want Pollard back even if he's willing to play for free. He's a complete butcher on offense.

He'd be a great color commentator, though. 

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2008, 10:38:11 AM »

Offline Chief

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All the data, everything I've seen, says PJ is way below average, and he's not like some defensive guru.
Try seeing a game then, maybe?

TP. Anyone who watched PJ play in the playoffs would not even try to make this argument.
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2008, 10:46:59 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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I don't think PJ was that good in the playoffs.  Adequate, not great.

Big Baby would have done just as well.

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2008, 10:56:13 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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I don't think PJ was that good in the playoffs.  Adequate, not great.

Big Baby would have done just as well.

did you watch the same games? Big baby doesn't have the length or experience to keep up with Rasheed or Gasol, when he was in there gasol was having a field day shooting over him. PJ was HUGE for us in the playoffs. He was tough, played great defense, didn't allow layups, set the tone with hard fouls, and hit big jumpers and putbacks.

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2008, 11:38:53 AM »

Offline TripleOT

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God please no PJ Brown.. unless he takes over Pollard's role as Mr. Formal Wear.  I wouldn't be able to take it.

You don't like stout post defenders who rebound well, protect the rim and take hard fouls, and hit timely shots, while being a great locker room leader and mentor to Powe and BBD?

Maybe Danny can figure out a way to bring Tim Duncan off the bench. Would that please you?   

TP, i just don't get the rampant Pj hate. he was our most reliable big off the bench. he gave us good minutes, rebounded well, and didn't allow layups, and hit timely shots. thats pretty much the definition of veteran presence off the bench.

i mean, he only won us an elimination game with a clucth shot and played well in dozens of other games, but apparently alot of people thing he's the plague  ::)

I wish more basketball fans had gambling backgrounds.  There's something we like to call "being results oriented".  It refers to when you praise yourself for a bad move, just because it turned out OK.  For instance putting $10K on red at the roulette wheel and winning.  It's a sucker move you just got lucky. I'm about as big a Celtics fan as you can be.  I was jumping and singing PJ's praise when he went 4-4 in game 7 vs CLE too, just like I was yelling "Go PJ!!!" when he had an awesome game against LA after being absolutely AWFUL versus Detroit.  But like LeBron said after the game, we'll live with PJ taking jumpers with the game on the line. 

All the data, everything I've seen, says PJ is way below average, and he's not like some defensive guru.  He's not Duncan out there.  He's not even Kurt Thomas.  He's old and slow and has to foul a lot because of it.  It happens.  We've got a unique talent in Leon.  I don't want him only getting 10 mpg and racking up DNPs.  Because there are other smart GMs out there who see his #s, see what a sick rebounder and offensive talent he is compared to his worth on the FA market, and they'll gobble him up and offer him first big off the bench role.   And he wouldn't think twice about walking for the money, either, because he gets buried behind worse players here in Boston, even when Mike Zarren (front office stats guru) is in Doc's ear saying "PLAY POWE". 

I don't want to make the same mistake Miami did.  PJ got brought in to win a ring, and we accomplished that.  He's old, he's been on a fast decline for a few years now.  I think he probably retires anyway, but should he want to play another year, it's time for Danny to use his head, not his heart.

You might want to watch the games more and study the data less.  The defense in rebounding in the playoffs between Powe and PJ was minimal.  Powe's numbers were better offensively, but he pretty much disappeared after his breakout Game 2 of the Finals, and didn't reappear until garbage time in the clincher.  One could argue that it was from lack of playing time, but Powe shrunk in Games 3 and 4 in LA, and was so lousy in the first quarter of his Game 5 start that he only saw five minutes of playing time that game.  PJ wasn't much better out in LA, but Doc went with his veteran, and it's tough to argue with the overall result. 

I'm a huge Powe fan, and I'm kind of his lucky charm.  I was at his breakout game against Philly early in the year.  I was at his breakout road game in Miami.  I was at his breakout Finals game.  Powe is a great guy to root for, but I'm not going to downgrade another Celtic because of my like for him, and I'm not going to gloss over the flaws in his game either.  Powe was a second year player who got overwhelmed in the road games in the Finals.  He might have played better with more minutes, but he's on a team with a stocked roster, and if he's struggling, he isn't going to get time. 

I sat right behind the basket for the Finals game, and I got a great look at the Cs defense. PJ Brown was really good at pushing the Lakers bigs off their spots as they tried to set up mid post in the triangle offense.    That's the first key to slowing down the triangle, and PJ was very good at it against the Lakers.

I've been touting Powe on various blogs, siting his instant productivity off the bench, but when you're a team playing for a championship, nurturing second line players takes a back seat to winning right now.  I don't think Powe is as upset at not getting a ton of playing time as you might be for him.  He seems to be the kind of guy who works his butt off and stays ready for when his number is called.  The Cs are going to have another big body on their roster, regardless.  If he doesn't get time, that would mean that Powe is tearing it up, which works for me.   

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2008, 12:12:09 PM »

Offline BballTim

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God please no PJ Brown.. unless he takes over Pollard's role as Mr. Formal Wear.  I wouldn't be able to take it.

You don't like stout post defenders who rebound well, protect the rim and take hard fouls, and hit timely shots, while being a great locker room leader and mentor to Powe and BBD?

Maybe Danny can figure out a way to bring Tim Duncan off the bench. Would that please you?   

doesn't rebound well at all given his size, his defense is way overhyped.  He doesn't make any brutal mistakes, but he's slow on rotations and is forced to foul very often. 

You guys are really ridiculous.  The numbers are readily available.   His rebounding #s are garbage.  He's going to be 39 next year people.  I don't have anything personal against PJ.  He had a great career.  I ultimately feel he hurt our team more than helped it, but that doesn't matter one iota anymore.  Let him retire with his ring out on top. 

Powe is one of the best bench bigs in the league.. his production proved it.  Frankly I felt terrible for him when he was a key part of our 66 wins, continued to outplay PJ in the playoffs, and had to deal with his minutes evaporating.  Yes he makes some boneheaded defensive mistakes occasionally.  Guess how he gets better?  Playing time.  And even with his defensive lapses, the Cs perform better with him on the floor, because he actually offers something offensively.  Actually, he offers a ton, as he's relentless with attacking the basket and putting the pressure on opposing big men, and he's one of the best offensive rebounders in the league (yes, truly one of the best, no exaggeration).  For some reason we all love to ignore the fact that PJ offers almost zero offensively, and cover it up by thinking going 4 on 5 is a good thing.  Offensive rebounding is highly underrated, and Leon is one of the best.  Give the kid his burn and let him learn on the defensive end.  He can bail out foul just as good as PJ.

  PJ's getting old, but to be fair his rebounding numbers, both offensive and defensive, were better than Powe's during the regular season. That doesn't mean he's not 39, and it's a small sample size, but his numbers during the season were above average.


Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2008, 12:27:27 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I don't think PJ was that good in the playoffs.  Adequate, not great.

Big Baby would have done just as well.
Big Baby got a run in the finals and looked totally outmatched against Gasol. Both him and Powe are liabilities against long, skilled big men, and outside of Garnett and Perkins, PJ was the only guy who could plug in there defensively.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2008, 12:35:59 PM »

Offline spelz

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If we don't get PJ back, we need another veteran center.  Someone who can bang inside, play defense, and take up space.  We do not have to have one who is a great scorer.  As a few others have already mentioned, Mourning or Mutombo would be ideal in this role.

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2008, 12:48:04 PM »

Offline Barnabas

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That's what you would expect a good leader like Doc to say.

As people have stated, Posey is the most important one.  And after that we need a big, veteran to play backup Center. 

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2008, 02:36:11 PM »

Offline expobear

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You might want to watch the games more and study the data less.  The defense in rebounding in the playoffs between Powe and PJ was minimal.  Powe's numbers were better offensively, but he pretty much disappeared after his breakout Game 2 of the Finals, and didn't reappear until garbage time in the clincher.  One could argue that it was from lack of playing time, but Powe shrunk in Games 3 and 4 in LA, and was so lousy in the first quarter of his Game 5 start that he only saw five minutes of playing time that game.  PJ wasn't much better out in LA, but Doc went with his veteran, and it's tough to argue with the overall result. 

[/quote]

I will argue that the reason Powe "disappeared" for games 3 through 5 is a lack of playing time.  The expectations placed on Powe are really incredible by this board and by Rivers.  If Powe doesn't perform in the first 2 or 3 minutes of a game (during the playoffs), he gets relegated to the bench. How anybody can say Powe "disappeared" after playing 6, 9 and 5 minutes respectively for games 3-5 is truly mindboggling. Now if Powe had played 15 to 20 minutes in any of these games and had the same stats, then I would agree that he "disappeared".  But come on man, how can somebody disappear after being given under 10 minutes of playing time for games 3 through 5?

I'll be the first to congratulate Rivers on his coaching for the season and the playoffs. Just because Rivers had the best team doesn't necessarily mean winning the NBA championship is guaranteed.  To get 3 superstars to check in their egos for the betterment of the team was masterful on Rivers' part.  His handling of Powe throughout the season is a minor complaint on my part.  I do think Powe should have played more.  Powe certainly wasn't expected to score 21 pts in 15 minutes every game but I certainly think he deserved more than to be given a few token minutes and then be yanked.  I know the big three and the starters deserve the minutes they get but if this policy was used with the starters i.e. yanking them after going 0-7 from the field, the Celtics would not have won the championship.

 

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2008, 02:39:12 PM »

Offline timepiece33

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Powe is a phenomenally efficient power forward who can rebound.

The primary difference between Powe, Brown, and Davis is that Powe's defense is not really a positive.

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2008, 04:19:16 PM »

Offline cmoney

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All the data, everything I've seen, says PJ is way below average, and he's not like some defensive guru.
Try seeing a game then, maybe?

OK Joe Morgan.  His struggles on the glass were pretty easy to see, as were his slow rotations leading to fouls, as was how badly our offense struggled with him on the floor.  a bunch of non-Celtic-homer friends pointed it out to me as well.  After a game, try going back and watching one without green tinted glasses.

But you're probably right.. stats are just this made up thing and reflect in no way anything that happens on the court.

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2008, 04:20:12 PM »

Offline cmoney

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I don't think PJ was that good in the playoffs.  Adequate, not great.

Big Baby would have done just as well.

TP.

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2008, 04:24:14 PM »

Offline cmoney

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OK so now like 4 "watch the games" remarks.  You guys are absurd.  I watched every single game of these playoffs, and quite a few twice or more.

I watch somewhere between 200-300 games a year.  82 Celtics games, plus a whole crapload of other games on League Pass.  I LOVE basketball.  I watch it passionately.  I study it passionately.  The amount of blind homerism here is ridiculous.  I'm all for pulling for our guys no matter what.  When the ball goes up that's exactly what I do.  And I understand some fans get nostalgic and want guys back.  Happens all the time.  Hell I do it for some guys.  But front offices screw that up too much.  The writing is on the wall with PJ.  He's been declining since his final year in New Orleans.  He's 38.  Time to let it go guys.

Re: Doc wants all back
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2008, 04:27:02 PM »

Offline cmoney

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Quote
I sat right behind the basket for the Finals game, and I got a great look at the Cs defense. PJ Brown was really good at pushing the Lakers bigs off their spots as they tried to set up mid post in the triangle offense.    That's the first key to slowing down the triangle, and PJ was very good at it against the Lakers.

I do readily admit this, and it's sort of what I meant when I thought the Powe on Gasol assignment was dumb.