Doc wants all back

[cmoney]

  PJ's getting old, but to be fair his rebounding numbers, both offensive and defensive, were better than Powe's during the regular season. That doesn't mean he's not 39, and it's a small sample size, but his numbers during the season were above average.

like you said.. sample size.  209 minutes against a cream puff schedule.  Taking his decline in previous seasons into account, plus his mediocre rebounding #s in the playoffs (~6/36mins), I think it's pretty fair to assume he's declining.  And that's OK.  He's 38.  Thanks for the help PJ.  Enjoy retirement as a champion.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Lol, did you really need 5 posts in a row to make your argument.

There's some validity in your claim of PJ's slow rotations at times, but to draw a conclusion upon his effectiveness as a defender in this Celtics team upon those few lapses is a mistake in my opinion.

Fact is that through most of the playoffs, PJ was the best big man off the bench hands down. You make remarks about his rebounds, but you also have to notice that Powe was a poor rebounder through the playoffs too.

[expobear]

Lol, did you really need 5 posts in a row to make your argument.

There's some validity in your claim of PJ's slow rotations at times, but to draw a conclusion upon his effectiveness as a defender in this Celtics team upon those few lapses is a mistake in my opinion.

Fact is that through most of the playoffs, PJ was the best big man off the bench hands down. You make remarks about his rebounds, but you also have to notice that Powe was a poor rebounder through the playoffs too.

Brown may have been the best big man off the bench.  However, he probably would have been more effective with a few minutes less a game which should have gone to Powe. Powe averaged 3.9 rebounds per game in the games that he played 10 or more minutes (about 19 minutes per game).  Brown averaged 3 rebounds per game in about 18 minutes per game.  Powe also averaged about 8.7 pts per game while Brown averaged 4.8 pts in the games where they both played 10 or more minutes. Granted, Powe's scoring average is a bit skewed by his game 2 vs the Lakers but still, Powe's play/rebounding was not poor, IMHO.  Again, all moot because the Celtics won, so it doesn't really matter how much Powe did or didn't play or how well people thought he did or did not play.   

[BudweiserCeltic]

Lol, did you really need 5 posts in a row to make your argument.

There's some validity in your claim of PJ's slow rotations at times, but to draw a conclusion upon his effectiveness as a defender in this Celtics team upon those few lapses is a mistake in my opinion.

Fact is that through most of the playoffs, PJ was the best big man off the bench hands down. You make remarks about his rebounds, but you also have to notice that Powe was a poor rebounder through the playoffs too.

Brown may have been the best big man off the bench.  However, he probably would have been more effective with a few minutes less a game which should have gone to Powe. Powe averaged 3.9 rebounds per game in the games that he played 10 or more minutes (about 19 minutes per game).  Brown averaged 3 rebounds per game in about 18 minutes per game.  Powe also averaged about 8.7 pts per game while Brown averaged 4.8 pts in the games where they both played 10 or more minutes. Granted, Powe's scoring average is a bit skewed by his game 2 vs the Lakers but still, Powe's play/rebounding was not poor, IMHO.  Again, all moot because the Celtics won, so it doesn't really matter how much Powe did or didn't play or how well people thought he did or did not play.   

Never intended to say that PJ was a better rebounder than Powe because he wasn't. But Powe rebounded much poorer during the playoffs than he did during the season... his rebounding rate was way down.  The way he was rebounding during the playoffs doesn't justify playing him over PJ, even if he rebounded better.

I'll tell you this... if Powe rebounded like he did through most of the season, I would make a case to play him over PJ in the playoffs even with his defensive lapses and inconsistencies. But when you add his diminished impact on the boards during the playoffs to his defensive problems, I simply can't make a good case to give him 15 or so minutes in a consistent basis through the playoffs.

[cmoney]

Sorry about the multiple posts I tend to reply as I read and stop at each post I won't to make a point on.

I agree that PJ deserved burn in the playoffs due to matchups mostly.  He didn't play much against ATL (too athletic), played a lot against CLE (stiffs like Wallace and Varejao), played probably too much against DET (couldn't handle their bigs perimeter play too well), and was for the most part fine against LA, especially since Perk's minutes were limited by injury.  I agree with expo, though, that I would have liked to see the minutes a little more balanced.  But ultimately it's moot as we won and currently rule the basketball world.

My concern is going forward.  We got what we could out of PJ, and for that I'm thankful, even if I was hard on him at times.  His decline over the past few years is clear to all.  Powe, on the other hand, made a huge leap last year and is still young and improving.  He has to play to learn. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

Sorry about the multiple posts I tend to reply as I read and stop at each post I won't to make a point on.

I agree that PJ deserved burn in the playoffs due to matchups mostly.  He didn't play much against ATL (too athletic), played a lot against CLE (stiffs like Wallace and Varejao), played probably too much against DET (couldn't handle their bigs perimeter play too well), and was for the most part fine against LA, especially since Perk's minutes were limited by injury.  I agree with expo, though, that I would have liked to see the minutes a little more balanced.  But ultimately it's moot as we won and currently rule the basketball world.

My concern is going forward.  We got what we could out of PJ, and for that I'm thankful, even if I was hard on him at times.  His decline over the past few years is clear to all.  Powe, on the other hand, made a huge leap last year and is still young and improving.  He has to play to learn. 

I'll say this, we shouldn't just be content to simply keep PJ. We could use someone better than him. But, if PJ is all we could find, it would be good because he is effective and useful.  I know many people might disagree with me, but I preffer a healthy Pollard over the current PJ. But a healthy Pollard is hard to come by.

Thing about Powe is that he lost his role as the first big off the bench, or simply the first PF off the bench. That's why the whole PJ vs. Powe discussion started because Doc was pretty much forced into a 3 big man rotation, when he would've loved to use a 4 man rotation. If Powe had played like we expected him to play, there's no Powe vs. PJ discussion. Powe would've kept playing the 4 and PJ the 5, and it would all been fine.

I'll say this, PJ is very useful against teams like Cleveland, and decent against the rest. Teams like the Lakers and Detroit that have very mobile offensive powerhouses bigs can expose PJ, but otherwise, PJ can keep up with the most of them. To PJ's defense against the Lakers, you also need to look how they made Perk look like a fool in quite a few games. When they were clicking it was hard for our big man to rotate properly, and Gasol is extremely hard to guard at times for guys like PJ and Perk (thankfully our bruising him slowed him down as the game went along). Also keep in mind, that Wallace and Gasol are basically powerfowards in a center role at times, so their skill level is not the usual of a center. PJ has to respect their quickness, and that's how Wallace got his points, on jumpers (Perk did a great job on him though).

His shot blocking is still there, and with that he could be quite effective for us even with his diminished skills.  In all, PJ should be great against the bulk of centers around the league. It's when these athletic pf/c types that can hit the midrange jumper come along that it give PJ a bit of trouble, in my opinion.

But with all this said, I hope we can get someone better than PJ or Pollard. If not, I'd go with Pollard, but if it's PJ who comes (which I really really really doubt), I would be fine with it too.

[wolfceltic215]

I have no interest in Cassell or Pollard, and PJ Brown is retiring.  The others I want back.

They need to sign a backup center.  That leaves roster spots for Giddens and Walker.

Yeah, we must say goodbye to Sam, Scott and PJ. Eddie and James definitely need to be resigned. As for Tony, i really dunno. Even if Danny's saying that drafting Giddens or Walker has nothing to do with Tony, they're still going to use the playing time of Tony.. I'd like to give Tony a chance to prove himself, but I don't know what they're gonna do with Giddens or Walker if Tony's resigned. Which leaves us to the backup Center position where we really are a big question mark. Powe and BBD are just at a height disadvantage with most conventional Centers, like Gasol in the finals.. he just shoots over BBD.. Mutombo would be nice if he'd only leave Houston.. Diop is another dream but it ain't just gonna happen.. hope we'll get surprised by Danny by signing a FA Center or trading for one with what the Cs have on the current roster.. lol..

[Brickowski]

The Celtics have until Monday to extend a qualifying offer to Tony Allen. That makes him a restricted free agent and the Celtics can match offers.  If they do not extend the offer, he becomes unrestricted.

When Rivers says he wants to keep Tony, he's just blowing smoke.

[jay_jay54]

The Celtics have until Monday to extend a qualifying offer to Tony Allen. That makes him a restricted free agent and the Celtics can match offers.  If they do not extend the offer, he becomes unrestricted.

When Rivers says he wants to keep Tony, he's just blowing smoke.

I agree,when i first heard him say it on Comcast...think he was just trying to throw the media off,at the time.

[kozlodoev]

The Celtics have until Monday to extend a qualifying offer to Tony Allen. That makes him a restricted free agent and the Celtics can match offers.  If they do not extend the offer, he becomes unrestricted.

When Rivers says he wants to keep Tony, he's just blowing smoke.

Do we lose anything by extending the qualifying offer? I think they'll do it just in case and then figure it out later...

[Brickowski]

Yes, you lose the ability to keep the player if another team wants him.

They don't want to pay Tony 2.7 million next year, which is less than they pay Scalabrine.  And they have had zero interest in negotiating an extension with Tony, even though they could probably get him for short money at this point.

I can't think of a single intstance since the concepts of qualifying offers and restricted free agency were introduced into the NBA collective bargaining agreement where a team that wanted to keep a player did not extend the qualifying offer.

Tony Allen is not in their future plans, and J.R. Giddens is his replacement. Look at what they do, not what they say.

[Roy Hobbs]

The Celtics have until Monday to extend a qualifying offer to Tony Allen. That makes him a restricted free agent and the Celtics can match offers.  If they do not extend the offer, he becomes unrestricted.

When Rivers says he wants to keep Tony, he's just blowing smoke.

Do we lose anything by extending the qualifying offer? I think they'll do it just in case and then figure it out later...

Well, what you lose is the roster spot and $2.7 million salary if Tony quickly accepts and signs, which I think he would.  Otherwise, teams can revoke their qualifying offer up until July 23.  After that point, they can only withdraw it with the player's consent.

[BballTim]

Sorry about the multiple posts I tend to reply as I read and stop at each post I won't to make a point on.

I agree that PJ deserved burn in the playoffs due to matchups mostly.  He didn't play much against ATL (too athletic), played a lot against CLE (stiffs like Wallace and Varejao), played probably too much against DET (couldn't handle their bigs perimeter play too well), and was for the most part fine against LA, especially since Perk's minutes were limited by injury.  I agree with expo, though, that I would have liked to see the minutes a little more balanced.  But ultimately it's moot as we won and currently rule the basketball world.

My concern is going forward.  We got what we could out of PJ, and for that I'm thankful, even if I was hard on him at times.  His decline over the past few years is clear to all.  Powe, on the other hand, made a huge leap last year and is still young and improving.  He has to play to learn. 

  If we bring back PJ it shouldn't be for backup center. It should be for 3rd center, who's only active on occasion. This year's Scott Pollard. We still need a primary backup for Perk who's taller than Powe or Davis.

[Brickowski]

The Celtics have until Monday to extend a qualifying offer to Tony Allen. That makes him a restricted free agent and the Celtics can match offers.  If they do not extend the offer, he becomes unrestricted.

When Rivers says he wants to keep Tony, he's just blowing smoke.

Do we lose anything by extending the qualifying offer? I think they'll do it just in case and then figure it out later...

Well, what you lose is the roster spot and $2.7 million salary if Tony quickly accepts and signs, which I think he would.  Otherwise, teams can revoke their qualifying offer up until July 23.  After that point, they can only withdraw it with the player's consent.

If roster spots were so valuable they could just waive Scalabrine.

The bottom line is that replacing TA with Giddens saves around 1.7 million in salary and another 1.7 million in luxury tax.  Tony is going to be a victim of the way they front loaded Garnett's contract.

This is a bad move. I can see TA going to a team like Cleveland to replace Devin Brown and pair up with D. West in the backcourt.  He would be an excellent fit in NY as well, playing D'Antoni's up tempo style.

I believe that the revocation provision is designed to permit teams to do sign-and-trades with players to whom they have extended qualifying offers. I'm not aware of any team revoking a QO for any other reason, although I suppose it could happen if a player to whom a QO was extended was seriously injured in Summer league.

[Chief]

I actually think Tony is really talented and hate the idea of letting him walk away without getting anything in return. Especially when his replacement has never played a minute of NBA basketball. It also kills me that the C's are willing to let Tony walk but they keep Scalabrine. I'm sure some veteran team would have took Scal for their late 2nd pick in the draft.