Author Topic: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.  (Read 54336 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #150 on: June 30, 2008, 01:19:09 AM »

Offline libermaniac

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2941
  • Tommy Points: 385
Quote
P.S. - In abstract, a player who starts his college career with a 66.7%FT (small sample though) and ends it five years later with a 58.6%FT shall raise a gigantic red flag. There's no way of hiding this.

True, but I look at it as hey, he shot 67% as a freshman, no reason he can't shoot 70% in the NBA.  And frankly, if his poor FT shooting becomes a big problem in the NBA, it will be a good problem to have - because that means he'll be getting to the line a lot, which means he'll be a big-time scorer.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #151 on: June 30, 2008, 01:27:59 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19003
  • Tommy Points: 1833
I don't know if this was already posted somewhere, but I couldn't find it:

- another highlights reel video (7 minutes long):
http://www.zshare.net/video/144159689ffa0bf9/

- an interesting article about Gidden's "maturation process":
http://www.abqjournal.com/sports/29115736sports06-29-08.htm

Quote
Sunday, June 29, 2008

Why I Grew To Like J.R.

By Mark Smith
Of the Journal
Man crush?
That’s how a trio of Baaaaahstoniaaaan silver throats (can’t quite call these guys golden) described my relationship with J.R. Giddens on Friday.
The gang at 1510 The Zone, a Boston sports talk radio station, interviewed me about the former University of New Mexico men’s basketball star, who was taken as the final pick of the first round in the NBA draft the night before.
They wanted the lowdown on the newest member of the Boston Celtics — i.e., some dirt.
Apparently, there were more than a few stunned — and ticked off — Celtics fans when Boston GM and former BYU star Danny Ainge made the ex-Lobo his top choice.
Understandable. After all, how many Easterners really got to see Giddens on that spectacular Mountain West Conference television package during the past two seasons?
All most heard was that Giddens was a problem child at both Kansas and UNM.
And they never got to know the real Justin Ray.
The three radio dudes were fair, but surprised when I continued to heap praise upon Giddens for his maturation process.
And this, despite my reputation as a “Lobo hater,” according to such experts as Ted the Schmo, the Burrito and Lobo tyke.
“If that guy is the anti-homaaah in New Mexico,” one of the Boston dudes said after I was off the air, “I’d hate to see what a homaaah is like out daaare.”
With Mike Roberts having been ousted, that title is now up for grabs. But I’ll send them a list of potential candidates. Believe me, there are plenty battling for it.
Another member of the “young guns,” as the radio guys bill themselves — my, how clever — said it sounded like I had a “maaaan crush” on Giddens.
He should have heard me a couple of years ago.
Hey J.R., where’s Danny?
One of my first encounters with Giddens was a memorable one.
For all the wrong reasons.
A transfer from Kansas, Giddens had to sit out the 2005-06 season as a redshirt. He took the sitting out part literally.
More often than not, Giddens grabbed some bench time during practice because of a sore ankle, a blister on his toe, a hangnail or a bad burrito from lunch. It was always something, and then-coach Ritchie McKay did little but pamper the guy he said would “be a lottery pick” in the 2007 draft.
When Giddens did practice, he showed gifted offensive skills. But defense? I watched former Lobo Mark Walters light him up on numerous occasions.
Anyway, back to that encounter.
I’m on press row, the old press row — the one reporters used to sit at before former AD Rudy Davalos made it a hot dog stand for the fat cats — writing a daily story on my laptop while watching practice. Some chubby guy who runs an Internet site is sitting next to me, feeling bubbly that he was allowed in to see his heroes. The harmless putz, so excited to be around, keeps yakking in my ear about Danny Granger and the Lobos’ narrow loss to Villanova the season prior.
I’m just nodding and writing.
“Hey! Do you see Danny Granger out here anymore?” Giddens — from his usual spot on the Lobo bench — turns around and snaps at the Internet guy. “I don’t want to hear anymore about Danny Granger. This is now J.R. Giddens’ team!”
The chubby one’s face got beet red.
“Uh, huh, huh,” he stammered, sounding like Beavis and Butthead while staring through the hole of a women’s bathroom.
I told him, “say something to him.”
Chubby was speechless.
So I fired back for him.
“You see that guy out there?” I barked at Giddens, pointing at McKay. “Do you think he likes to hear about Danny Granger’s name when he tries to recruit? ... Why don’t you mind your own business, watch practice, learn something about the game — and quit getting stabbed in parking lots!”
The latter, of course, referring to his fight outside a Lawrence, Kan., bar, in which Giddens was knifed in the leg. Giddens later plead no contest to misdemeanor battery for his part in the altercation.
After that practice, Giddens came up to me and told me he respected me for standing up to him.
I hear France is nice
Sure, there were many more problems along the way — especially during that dysfunctional 2006-07 season. Giddens had run-ins with coaches, teammates, fans, opponents and media.
Myself a number of times.
My favorite line that season came when KOAT’s Bob Brown was interviewing a particularly moody Giddens after one practice.
“Come on, smile J.R.,” Brown said.
“Just think of all that money you’re going to be making next year in Europe.”
Giddens didn’t find it as amusing as we all did.
Sure, Giddens was enigmatic. But he was always straight up and just plain likable.
And when he looked to be hitting rock bottom last summer, he did what those with character do.
He grew up.
New coach Steve Alford had heard enough about the problematic and talented Oklahoma City native. Let’s face it, Alford wanted him gone. He didn’t even take Giddens on the spring exhibition trip to the Bahamas.
Shortly thereafter, I saw Giddens in the UNM training room, both of us dealing with knee injuries.
He had tears in his eyes as he spoke of the sincerity he had in proving his naysayers wrong.
Five MWC player of the week honors and one co-player of the year award later, Giddens did just that. And he did it while gaining the love and admiration of his teammates, coaches, fans — and yes, even the media.
Man crush?
I wouldn’t go that far.
It’s just a hell of a lot of respect for a kid who became a man —and did it in front of my own eyes during the past three years.

Here's the podcast on which that article is based on:
http://celticscast.com/podcasts/celticscast060.mp3

And here's another JR interview:
http://celticscast.com/podcasts/celticscast059.mp3

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2008, 01:48:30 PM »

Offline cmoney

  • Kristaps Porzingis
  • Posts: 184
  • Tommy Points: 14
Quote
P.S. - In abstract, a player who starts his college career with a 66.7%FT (small sample though) and ends it five years later with a 58.6%FT shall raise a gigantic red flag. There's no way of hiding this.

True, but I look at it as hey, he shot 67% as a freshman, no reason he can't shoot 70% in the NBA.  And frankly, if his poor FT shooting becomes a big problem in the NBA, it will be a good problem to have - because that means he'll be getting to the line a lot, which means he'll be a big-time scorer.

Not sure I understand what you're saying.  Are you saying it's only a big problem if he gets to the line a lot, which indicate he's a big time scorer?  I mean, sure, I guess.  Scoring in bulk isn't necessarily a good thing, though, unless it's done efficiently.  And weak FT shooting severely cuts into that efficiency.  Every lay up goes from say, a 1.8 point expectancy to 1.2.  That's a big dropoff.

Cordobes brings up a good point about strength of schedule, as well as the "red flag".

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.  The caution flags are there, but his athleticism is through the roof, brings it defensively, and Danny has a solid track record with late first rounders.  Really wish he was going to summer league so I can check it out.   

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2008, 10:32:35 PM »

Offline JollyGreen17

  • Lonnie Walker IV
  • Posts: 65
  • Tommy Points: 1
I recently saw how giddy JR was to join the C's. I have to say that I'm excited to see him hustle on the parquet floor in the future!

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #154 on: July 01, 2008, 12:06:14 AM »

Offline Last Train

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 118
  • Tommy Points: 8

2. Pierce was playing in the Big 12, not in the WMC. Competition matters. If you isolate Giddens' stats when facing legit teams - Utah, BYU, Cal, UNLV Rebels - the picture is quite different:

46 FG%, 8 3pt%, 16 ppg, 38 mpg

I think the explanation for his outstanding efficiency against weaker competition lies in Alford, assuming he still uses his branded offense, Knight's motion offense 2-in, 3-out. If the defense is weak, wingers like Giddens will have plenty of chances to make easy lay-ups or wide open perimeter shots.

But yeah, those are not disparaging numbers considering he was the primary scorer and defender of his team. But I think he was drafted mostly because of his defensive potential, not his offense. IIRC, you were already a partisan of picking this kid before the draft, so here's a TP, because I'm liking more and more this pick, although I've never seen the kid playing.

A propos, memo to Ainge: don't pick guys who play in programs from small conferences that don't reach the NCAA.



Isn't this a basic truth with any player though? On the average, when you face stronger teams your numbers will dip compared to when you faced cup cakes? Isn't this especially true when you may not have the horses on your own team to help you pick up that slack?

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #155 on: July 01, 2008, 12:22:38 AM »

Offline cordobes

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3556
  • Tommy Points: 576
  • Basketball is like chess, only without the dice

2. Pierce was playing in the Big 12, not in the WMC. Competition matters. If you isolate Giddens' stats when facing legit teams - Utah, BYU, Cal, UNLV Rebels - the picture is quite different:

46 FG%, 8 3pt%, 16 ppg, 38 mpg

I think the explanation for his outstanding efficiency against weaker competition lies in Alford, assuming he still uses his branded offense, Knight's motion offense 2-in, 3-out. If the defense is weak, wingers like Giddens will have plenty of chances to make easy lay-ups or wide open perimeter shots.

But yeah, those are not disparaging numbers considering he was the primary scorer and defender of his team. But I think he was drafted mostly because of his defensive potential, not his offense. IIRC, you were already a partisan of picking this kid before the draft, so here's a TP, because I'm liking more and more this pick, although I've never seen the kid playing.

A propos, memo to Ainge: don't pick guys who play in programs from small conferences that don't reach the NCAA.



Isn't this a basic truth with any player though? On the average, when you face stronger teams your numbers will dip compared to when you faced cup cakes? Isn't this especially true when you may not have the horses on your own team to help you pick up that slack?

Yeps, but you missed the point.

I was answering to a comment about Giddens and Pierce having similar eff. stats coming out of the college. That only happens because New Mexico schedule was rather weak; when facing stronger opponents - and programs like BUY, Utah, etc are not exactly elite - he was a very inefficient scorer (particularly from beyond the line). 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 12:28:35 AM by cordobes »

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #156 on: July 01, 2008, 04:01:30 AM »

Offline Last Train

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 118
  • Tommy Points: 8

Yeps, but you missed the point.

I was answering to a comment about Giddens and Pierce having similar eff. stats coming out of the college. That only happens because New Mexico schedule was rather weak; when facing stronger opponents - and programs like BUY, Utah, etc are not exactly elite - he was a very inefficient scorer (particularly from beyond the line). 

Fair enough. Though, BYU is pretty good - I happen to be a fan.  8)

But yes, I get your point.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #157 on: July 01, 2008, 05:09:12 AM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1967
  • Tommy Points: 170

2. Pierce was playing in the Big 12, not in the WMC. Competition matters. If you isolate Giddens' stats when facing legit teams - Utah, BYU, Cal, UNLV Rebels - the picture is quite different:

46 FG%, 8 3pt%, 16 ppg, 38 mpg

I think the explanation for his outstanding efficiency against weaker competition lies in Alford, assuming he still uses his branded offense, Knight's motion offense 2-in, 3-out. If the defense is weak, wingers like Giddens will have plenty of chances to make easy lay-ups or wide open perimeter shots.

But yeah, those are not disparaging numbers considering he was the primary scorer and defender of his team. But I think he was drafted mostly because of his defensive potential, not his offense. IIRC, you were already a partisan of picking this kid before the draft, so here's a TP, because I'm liking more and more this pick, although I've never seen the kid playing.

A propos, memo to Ainge: don't pick guys who play in programs from small conferences that don't reach the NCAA.



Isn't this a basic truth with any player though? On the average, when you face stronger teams your numbers will dip compared to when you faced cup cakes? Isn't this especially true when you may not have the horses on your own team to help you pick up that slack?

Yeps, but you missed the point.

I was answering to a comment about Giddens and Pierce having similar eff. stats coming out of the college. That only happens because New Mexico schedule was rather weak; when facing stronger opponents - and programs like BUY, Utah, etc are not exactly elite - he was a very inefficient scorer (particularly from beyond the line). 

especially when you are your teams best player and teams gear their entire defense toward stopping you. you can ask paul pierce what thats like...or ray allen...or kg
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #158 on: July 01, 2008, 05:41:27 AM »

Offline Last Train

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 118
  • Tommy Points: 8

especially when you are your teams best player and teams gear their entire defense toward stopping you. you can ask paul pierce what thats like...or ray allen...or kg


Or Kobe.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #159 on: July 01, 2008, 03:15:22 PM »

Offline cordobes

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3556
  • Tommy Points: 576
  • Basketball is like chess, only without the dice

especially when you are your teams best player and teams gear their entire defense toward stopping you. you can ask paul pierce what thats like...or ray allen...or kg


Or Kobe.

Simply put: implying that Giddens is/could be/will be an efficient scorer because his college stats are similar to those of Paul Pierce is very misleading. Giddens was not a very efficient scorer during his college career when you adjust for the schedulle strenght; he won't be a good scorer in the NBA anytime soon and probably never. 

I don't know what the fact that every player has more trouble in offense when facing better teams has to do with this. If Kobe, Pierce or Allen were facing WMC teams when they were 21/22/23, they'd be dropping highly efficient 40 points per game night in night out.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #160 on: July 02, 2008, 12:58:06 AM »

Offline cordobes

  • NCE
  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3556
  • Tommy Points: 576
  • Basketball is like chess, only without the dice

Yeps, but you missed the point.

I was answering to a comment about Giddens and Pierce having similar eff. stats coming out of the college. That only happens because New Mexico schedule was rather weak; when facing stronger opponents - and programs like BUY, Utah, etc are not exactly elite - he was a very inefficient scorer (particularly from beyond the line). 

Fair enough. Though, BYU is pretty good - I happen to be a fan.  8)

But yes, I get your point.

Missed this post. Do you remember a former BYU player called Jarred Miller? I guess he played there during the first years of the 90s. One of my favorites basketball players ever.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #161 on: July 02, 2008, 01:59:01 AM »

Offline libermaniac

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2941
  • Tommy Points: 385

especially when you are your teams best player and teams gear their entire defense toward stopping you. you can ask paul pierce what thats like...or ray allen...or kg


Or Kobe.

Simply put: implying that Giddens is/could be/will be an efficient scorer because his college stats are similar to those of Paul Pierce is very misleading. Giddens was not a very efficient scorer during his college career when you adjust for the schedulle strenght; he won't be a good scorer in the NBA anytime soon and probably never. 

I don't know what the fact that every player has more trouble in offense when facing better teams has to do with this. If Kobe, Pierce or Allen were facing WMC teams when they were 21/22/23, they'd be dropping highly efficient 40 points per game night in night out.

I think you guys are relying a bit too much on stats and making some big time assumptions.  True Kansas played a tougher schedule than UNM, but Pierce played alongside someone by the name of Raef LaFrentz, who drew a decent amount of defensive focus, whereas Giddens was a one-man show at UNM.  He drew a defensive focus like Kobe saw from the C's every time he went out there (or the opponents at least attempted that).  Also, Giddens dropped 30, 28 and 26 in the last few weeks of the season on BYU, Utah and Cal respectively, with 37 boards over those 3 games.  Your averages reflect one 4 point (on 2-8 shooting) outing vs. BYU where he only played 25 minutes.   Take that out and, his numbers actually rose vs. good competition. (My point here is that 6 games is not a large enough sample size to reach conclusions about what he does against "good" defenses without actually watching the games).  If you saw either his last game in the MWC tourney or the NIT game, you would've seen a fierce competitor who rose to the occasion and tried to carry a team on his back, and not just by scoring.  He was passing, playing D, and leaving everything out there on the court.  This is not just a player who padded his scoring numbers vs. bad teams.  Two of his lowest scoring games were against New Mexico St. for God's sake.  His 8% 3 point shooting (1-12) against "tough" competition is also misleading in that most games he went 0-1 or 0-2 and one game where he went 1-5 vs. Cal (but played an absolutely phenomenal game otherwise), hardly enough sample size.

I think you are overrating the major conferences as well.  Danny Granger certainly hasn't found it very tough scoring in the NBA.  He too came from New Mexico, and he too was the sole focus of defenses.

My original point in posting the comparisons to Pierce were not to say that he will rival Pierce in terms of his scoring (we could only dream of that).  Rather, it was to say that Giddens is not a BAD shooter. His shooting percentages were very similar to Pierce's in college.  An open look is an open look, whether it's vs. Iowa or Wyoming.   Giddens is mediocre from 3 point range, but he's a rather efficient scorer in that he's got a scorer's mentality and NBA moves.  He shot 51.6% from the field for God's sake ... I'd hate to see what it takes for you guys to consider him a good shooter.

I think, frankly, that many people on this board are overrating his defense and assuming because Danny and Doc say this kid can play defense from day one, that he's a Tony Allen clone.  He's not.  He's a well-rounded basketball player who will do whatever it takes to win.  From the games I saw, he was a good defender, but by no means a lock-down defender.  Perhaps since I'm sure he'll understand that his ticket to PT will be his defense, he may become a lock-down defender, but that wasn't his only role in college.  He was the MAN on a rather poor team otherwise.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #162 on: July 02, 2008, 02:10:29 AM »

Offline libermaniac

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2941
  • Tommy Points: 385
Quote
P.S. - In abstract, a player who starts his college career with a 66.7%FT (small sample though) and ends it five years later with a 58.6%FT shall raise a gigantic red flag. There's no way of hiding this.

True, but I look at it as hey, he shot 67% as a freshman, no reason he can't shoot 70% in the NBA.  And frankly, if his poor FT shooting becomes a big problem in the NBA, it will be a good problem to have - because that means he'll be getting to the line a lot, which means he'll be a big-time scorer.

Not sure I understand what you're saying.  Are you saying it's only a big problem if he gets to the line a lot, which indicate he's a big time scorer? 

I'm saying he will improve his FT shooting in the NBA.  I would venture to guess that by his third year, if not sooner, he'll be a 70% shooter from the line. (If he shot 67% as a freshman, no reason to think that in the NBA, with no class and more time to work on FTs, he can't get to that level at least within a few years).  Also, having seen Gidden's shot compared to Rondo's (63%), I can't see Gidden's not getting to the 70% level or above.  Prior to that, he won't be getting enough FT attempts for it to matter.  If he DOES get enough FT attempts in his first two years for us to be disappointed with his FT%, my point is that will be a good problem to have because it means he's exceeded expectations and he's getting lots of PT, most likely in place of Ray Allen.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #163 on: July 02, 2008, 02:19:21 AM »

Offline Last Train

  • Payton Pritchard
  • Posts: 118
  • Tommy Points: 8

Missed this post. Do you remember a former BYU player called Jarred Miller? I guess he played there during the first years of the 90s. One of my favorites basketball players ever.


Yes. He played from 91-93. What makes him a favorite? His teammate from 91-92 Nathan Call might be my alltime favorite. I've never trusted someone more to hit a big 3 when it counted.

Re: The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2008, 11:31:12 AM »

Offline libermaniac

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2941
  • Tommy Points: 385
More on Giddens from today's globe:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/articles/2008/07/06/is_spurs_golden_age_over/?page=3
Quote
It was disappointing for rookie guard J.R. Giddens and the Celtics that he wasn't involved in last week's free agent/rookie camp in Waltham because he has yet to sign a contract.

But the Celtics don't have to worry about the 30th overall pick in the draft working out on his own. Giddens is a gym rat.

While in Los Angeles preparing for the draft, Giddens would work out in the morning with former NBA player Don MacLean. And the 6-foot-5-inch, 215-pound Giddens would often come back to the gym twice afterward to work out on his own. After working out four straight days for four teams, MacLean once actually sent Giddens home when he showed up to work out again. And it's not out of the ordinary for Giddens to get in extra shooting late at night.

While playing at the University of New Mexico, Giddens often asked the video coordinator to give him tape of NBA players at his position, such as the Celtics' Paul Pierce and the Lakers' Kobe Bryant. Giddens also has a very competitive nature that should suit him well with the Celtics.

"He's talented. He's very, very gifted," said New Mexico assistant coach Craig Neal, a former NBA player. "He's got a great body. He's long. The biggest thing that people don't understand about him is he's super competitive. He hates to lose in Scrabble. We harnessed some of that."