The get to know J.R. Giddens thread.

[libermaniac]

Great quotes from Steve Alford (his coach at New Mexico) about Giddens:

"This was a kid who was a Parade All-American, a McDonald's All-American coming out of high school," said Alford. "He gets a bad rap, some of it J.R.'s own fault. Any time you leave a prestigious program like Kansas, you're going to get a label.

"That's the first impression you make, and the label doesn't leave you. If we're not talking about someone who transferred from Kansas and had a reputation, he'd be in the top 15 or 20, if people looked just at his athleticism and talent and potential.

"He was huge for us this season. He had a phenomenal season. He did everything for us. He guarded the best opponent. He could have been a 25-point scorer, but he always had tough defensive assignments."

That explains his 16.3 ppg.  I'm a Lobo fan (although living in Los Angeles, so only caught a few games live).  But, when I watch him I see a phenominal scorer, in the mold of Paul Pierce (who's not the greatest shooter either but just has a knack for scoring).  But, his 16.3 ppg average does not reconcile with the talent.  The defensive assignment argument is a good one.

Here's a comparison for those who think Giddens is a poor shooter:

Pierce's last year in college:  51.3 FG%, 33.9 3pt%
Gidden's last year in college:  51.6 FG%, 33.3 3pt%

True, Giddens has been horrible at the line, but trust me, he'll fix that.

[Jason330032]

What up guys and gals.  I have rarely posted on here but from what I can see it is a great site to discuss all things Celtics. 

I am not jumping up and down over the pick.  I preferred Chris Douglas-Roberts, but I am also not naive enough to think I can guarantee that he will be better than Giddens.  The most important basketball skill for a player coming out of school is defensive ability, in my opinion, and Giddens has a whole lot of that. 

If Giddens was a poor overall shooter I would be alot more concerned than FT shooting.  FT has been shown to be correctable as opposed to players that struggle with field goal percentage. 

But yes, Chris Douglas-Roberts would have been a better choice, in my opinion. 

[Mean Gerald Green]

To the guy complaining about his ft shooting, Karl Malone shot under 50% as an NBA rookie at 23 and improved to the mid 70's as his career progressed. Magic went from 75% in his younger days to 90% and leading the NBA. It can be done.

wow convincing argument.  You're now comparing Giddens to two HoFers, one a top 5 all time player, #1 PG all time, and the other a top 3 PF all time.  Jesus what is with you people.  I can pull out a few hundred names of guys who got drafted after say, the 15th or 20th pick, and never gained more than 5% on their FT shooting. 

So you have to be a hall of famer selected in the top 15-20 picks in order to improve your free throw shooting during your career...convincing argument.

[cmoney]

so is that standard operating procedure around here?  Weak strawman attacks to discredit anyone who raises a caution flag?

Do you really want me to go through the history of every player taken say, after the 20th pick and chart their improvement?  The vast majority didn't improve much or at all. Very bad FT% is always a bad sign for shooters.  The exceptions are few.  That's all I'm saying.  Given this kid slipped more due to character type stuff I'll keep my hopes up, just not banking on it.  But please continue to post snide one liners. 

[hwangjini_1]

so is that standard operating procedure around here?  Weak strawman attacks to discredit anyone who raises a caution flag?

Do you really want me to go through the history of every player taken say, after the 20th pick and chart their improvement?  The vast majority didn't improve much or at all. Very bad FT% is always a bad sign for shooters.  The exceptions are few.  That's all I'm saying.  Given this kid slipped more due to character type stuff I'll keep my hopes up, just not banking on it.  But please continue to post snide one liners. 

it may be best to understand that the posters on celticblog are not a single, monolithic block of folks. there are some similar the type you mention, but there are also some great posters as well. it will probably make your ife a little easier here if you just ignore the folks you dont like.

pick your debate mates carefully rather than responding to every comment. there are some exceptional basketbal minds on this board and a whole lot of celtic loyalty. unfortunatelly, i aint in the first category, but it also means i can learn.

[NorCalJack]

I was looking at an old Rivals.com list of high school BB players for the Class of 2003.  Some interesting names on that list.  Here are just a few that caught my eye.

1.) Lebron James
2.) Luol Deng
6.) Kendrick Perkins
10.) Leon Powe
14.) Chris Paul
18.) Trevor Ariza
19.) JR Giddens

Here is the link if your interested in seeing the entire list.

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/viewrank.asp

Obviously some of the players I did not list were over-rated, but Chris Paul was under-rated.  When all is said and done, JR Giddens may also be under-rated on this list.  I really am starting to like this pick the more I look into it.

[tapper]

I'll admit I know nothing about this draft pick, however if you look at current roster a common thread exists between JR and players on the roster. Danny likes guys that are multi skilled. Let him at least scrimage up here under Doc and TT before we pass judgement.

[Last Train]

Don't know if this has already been posted in one of the threads, but this guy couldn't be more excited. He will do anything for the team, and I believe him.

http://wbztv.com/video/?id=63928@wbz.dayport.com

[Jason330032]

Cmoney I understand the concerns about Free Throw percentage but would you not also say that players who excel on defense, have off the charts athleticism, and shoot the ball well from the field tend to suceed as a professional player? 

[SShoreFan 2.0]

Don't know if this has already been posted in one of the threads, but this guy couldn't be more excited. He will do anything for the team, and I believe him.

http://wbztv.com/video/?id=63928@wbz.dayport.com

If you have not seen this video, watch it.  I am very impressed with the kid.

Danny has done an amazing job in drafting, Until such time that something happens to prove otherwise, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that this is a smart pick.

[Mon]

He looks like a Martin Lawrence, Derek Anderson, and Master P love child...is that even possible?

[crownsy]

so is that standard operating procedure around here?  Weak strawman attacks to discredit anyone who raises a caution flag?

Do you really want me to go through the history of every player taken say, after the 20th pick and chart their improvement?  The vast majority didn't improve much or at all. Very bad FT% is always a bad sign for shooters.  The exceptions are few.  That's all I'm saying.  Given this kid slipped more due to character type stuff I'll keep my hopes up, just not banking on it.  But please continue to post snide one liners. 

pointing out legitimate counter points isn't a straw man argument, its a debate, which is what we try to have on this site.

i've read this whole thread, and have yet to see anyone making counter arguments for the sake of counter arguments. each one is a good example.

considering the kid hasn't played one minute of NBA ball, opinions on him are going to range widely. we have no sample size of him vs. nba players.

I honestly don't know why you seem to think disagreeing with your assessment is some kind of ridiculous argument or personal attack, to me it seems like you raised a good point, but people are raising good counter points and examples... thats what happens when you discuss things. sure, some people posted one liners, but i didn't see any specifically targeted at you in a mean way.


my feeling on this is that he's the 30th pick in the draft, a pick that generally yields a good bench player at best. Its not real surprising to me that he has legitimate flaws. I would have liked chalmers at this pick, since his defense is already excellent, but danny has done pretty well in the draft, so im willing to wait the 2-3 years on this kid to see if he pans out.

Again, he was the 30th pick, i know where used to picking quite a bit higher, but to get a talented but flawed kid at this pick that is going to take time to develop is the norm.

[cordobes]

Great quotes from Steve Alford (his coach at New Mexico) about Giddens:

"This was a kid who was a Parade All-American, a McDonald's All-American coming out of high school," said Alford. "He gets a bad rap, some of it J.R.'s own fault. Any time you leave a prestigious program like Kansas, you're going to get a label.

"That's the first impression you make, and the label doesn't leave you. If we're not talking about someone who transferred from Kansas and had a reputation, he'd be in the top 15 or 20, if people looked just at his athleticism and talent and potential.

"He was huge for us this season. He had a phenomenal season. He did everything for us. He guarded the best opponent. He could have been a 25-point scorer, but he always had tough defensive assignments."

That explains his 16.3 ppg.  I'm a Lobo fan (although living in Los Angeles, so only caught a few games live).  But, when I watch him I see a phenominal scorer, in the mold of Paul Pierce (who's not the greatest shooter either but just has a knack for scoring).  But, his 16.3 ppg average does not reconcile with the talent.  The defensive assignment argument is a good one.

Here's a comparison for those who think Giddens is a poor shooter:

Pierce's last year in college:  51.3 FG%, 33.9 3pt%
Gidden's last year in college:  51.6 FG%, 33.3 3pt%

True, Giddens has been horrible at the line, but trust me, he'll fix that.

That's not a very fair comparison (well, Pierce was a obvious top 5 pick who slided due to a bizarre succession of coincidences, so it'd never be fair):

1. Pierce was a junior and 2 years younger.

2. Pierce was playing in the Big 12, not in the WMC. Competition matters. If you isolate Giddens' stats when facing legit teams - Utah, BYU, Cal, UNLV Rebels - the picture is quite different:

46 FG%, 8 3pt%, 16 ppg, 38 mpg

I think the explanation for his outstanding efficiency against weaker competition lies in Alford, assuming he still uses his branded offense, Knight's motion offense 2-in, 3-out. If the defense is weak, wingers like Giddens will have plenty of chances to make easy lay-ups or wide open perimeter shots.

But yeah, those are not disparaging numbers considering he was the primary scorer and defender of his team. But I think he was drafted mostly because of his defensive potential, not his offense. IIRC, you were already a partisan of picking this kid before the draft, so here's a TP, because I'm liking more and more this pick, although I've never seen the kid playing.

A propos, memo to Ainge: don't pick guys who play in programs from small conferences that don't reach the NCAA.

P.S. - In abstract, a player who starts his college career with a 66.7%FT (small sample though) and ends it five years later with a 58.6%FT shall raise a gigantic red flag. There's no way of hiding this. But I believe there's a plausible explanation in this case: 4 wasted years (as we all know) with attitude problems and then Steve Alford in his last year... Coach Alford is great in many things but not in all of them. But if he told Doc that this kid is a hard worker, he certainly is. He can become a decent free-thrower if he works hard and good coaching is available.

[cordobes]

I don't know if this was already posted somewhere, but I couldn't find it:

- another highlights reel video (7 minutes long):
http://www.zshare.net/video/144159689ffa0bf9/

- an interesting article about Gidden's "maturation process":
http://www.abqjournal.com/sports/29115736sports06-29-08.htm

Sunday, June 29, 2008

Why I Grew To Like J.R.

By Mark Smith
Of the Journal
Man crush?
That’s how a trio of Baaaaahstoniaaaan silver throats (can’t quite call these guys golden) described my relationship with J.R. Giddens on Friday.
The gang at 1510 The Zone, a Boston sports talk radio station, interviewed me about the former University of New Mexico men’s basketball star, who was taken as the final pick of the first round in the NBA draft the night before.
They wanted the lowdown on the newest member of the Boston Celtics — i.e., some dirt.
Apparently, there were more than a few stunned — and ticked off — Celtics fans when Boston GM and former BYU star Danny Ainge made the ex-Lobo his top choice.
Understandable. After all, how many Easterners really got to see Giddens on that spectacular Mountain West Conference television package during the past two seasons?
All most heard was that Giddens was a problem child at both Kansas and UNM.
And they never got to know the real Justin Ray.
The three radio dudes were fair, but surprised when I continued to heap praise upon Giddens for his maturation process.
And this, despite my reputation as a “Lobo hater,” according to such experts as Ted the Schmo, the Burrito and Lobo tyke.
“If that guy is the anti-homaaah in New Mexico,” one of the Boston dudes said after I was off the air, “I’d hate to see what a homaaah is like out daaare.”
With Mike Roberts having been ousted, that title is now up for grabs. But I’ll send them a list of potential candidates. Believe me, there are plenty battling for it.
Another member of the “young guns,” as the radio guys bill themselves — my, how clever — said it sounded like I had a “maaaan crush” on Giddens.
He should have heard me a couple of years ago.
Hey J.R., where’s Danny?
One of my first encounters with Giddens was a memorable one.
For all the wrong reasons.
A transfer from Kansas, Giddens had to sit out the 2005-06 season as a redshirt. He took the sitting out part literally.
More often than not, Giddens grabbed some bench time during practice because of a sore ankle, a blister on his toe, a hangnail or a bad burrito from lunch. It was always something, and then-coach Ritchie McKay did little but pamper the guy he said would “be a lottery pick” in the 2007 draft.
When Giddens did practice, he showed gifted offensive skills. But defense? I watched former Lobo Mark Walters light him up on numerous occasions.
Anyway, back to that encounter.
I’m on press row, the old press row — the one reporters used to sit at before former AD Rudy Davalos made it a hot dog stand for the fat cats — writing a daily story on my laptop while watching practice. Some chubby guy who runs an Internet site is sitting next to me, feeling bubbly that he was allowed in to see his heroes. The harmless putz, so excited to be around, keeps yakking in my ear about Danny Granger and the Lobos’ narrow loss to Villanova the season prior.
I’m just nodding and writing.
“Hey! Do you see Danny Granger out here anymore?” Giddens — from his usual spot on the Lobo bench — turns around and snaps at the Internet guy. “I don’t want to hear anymore about Danny Granger. This is now J.R. Giddens’ team!”
The chubby one’s face got beet red.
“Uh, huh, huh,” he stammered, sounding like Beavis and Butthead while staring through the hole of a women’s bathroom.
I told him, “say something to him.”
Chubby was speechless.
So I fired back for him.
“You see that guy out there?” I barked at Giddens, pointing at McKay. “Do you think he likes to hear about Danny Granger’s name when he tries to recruit? ... Why don’t you mind your own business, watch practice, learn something about the game — and quit getting stabbed in parking lots!”
The latter, of course, referring to his fight outside a Lawrence, Kan., bar, in which Giddens was knifed in the leg. Giddens later plead no contest to misdemeanor battery for his part in the altercation.
After that practice, Giddens came up to me and told me he respected me for standing up to him.
I hear France is nice
Sure, there were many more problems along the way — especially during that dysfunctional 2006-07 season. Giddens had run-ins with coaches, teammates, fans, opponents and media.
Myself a number of times.
My favorite line that season came when KOAT’s Bob Brown was interviewing a particularly moody Giddens after one practice.
“Come on, smile J.R.,” Brown said.
“Just think of all that money you’re going to be making next year in Europe.”
Giddens didn’t find it as amusing as we all did.
Sure, Giddens was enigmatic. But he was always straight up and just plain likable.
And when he looked to be hitting rock bottom last summer, he did what those with character do.
He grew up.
New coach Steve Alford had heard enough about the problematic and talented Oklahoma City native. Let’s face it, Alford wanted him gone. He didn’t even take Giddens on the spring exhibition trip to the Bahamas.
Shortly thereafter, I saw Giddens in the UNM training room, both of us dealing with knee injuries.
He had tears in his eyes as he spoke of the sincerity he had in proving his naysayers wrong.
Five MWC player of the week honors and one co-player of the year award later, Giddens did just that. And he did it while gaining the love and admiration of his teammates, coaches, fans — and yes, even the media.
Man crush?
I wouldn’t go that far.
It’s just a hell of a lot of respect for a kid who became a man —and did it in front of my own eyes during the past three years.

[BudweiserCeltic]

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