Author Topic: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?  (Read 23125 times)

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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2008, 01:18:25 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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As for his role in this years playoffs ... it's been too long. I wouldn't play him at all. Playing Tony Allen means James Posey has to play power forward which I'm not wild about.

Or it means that Pierce or Posey can't keep up with Rip and he gets in for Posey, while Posey gets on the bench. But with how unproductive and "bad" or bench PF play has been, I wouldn't be too bothered with seeing a small lineup here and there, especially against the Pistons who apparently don't bother to attack the basket much and are more of a midrange jump shooting team.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2008, 01:35:21 PM »

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As for his role in this years playoffs ... it's been too long. I wouldn't play him at all. Playing Tony Allen means James Posey has to play power forward which I'm not wild about.

Or it means that Pierce or Posey can't keep up with Rip and he gets in for Posey, while Posey gets on the bench. But with how unproductive and "bad" or bench PF play has been, I wouldn't be too bothered with seeing a small lineup here and there, especially against the Pistons who apparently don't bother to attack the basket much and are more of a midrange jump shooting team.

I don't think Tony Allen can guard Rip Hamilton so that (Posey's inability to defend Rip) makes no difference to me. Stick Pierce on Rip as the secondary defender and Posey as third line.

I think Tony is a quality on the ball defender. I don't think he plays good off the ball defense and I don't think he has a hope of sticking with Rip Hamilton with his movement off the ball. Which I said before the series. More often than not Rip will make a show of him. I have some interest in Tony defending Billups but not Hamilton.

The backup power forwards haven't been actively scoring but they've stopped Maxiell, their best bench player, so I'm content with that. Powe and BBD have a lot more to give also, I don't want Doc going away from them. Stay big and keep the Celtics advantage in the paint where they can and are winning on the boards and interior scoring.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2008, 01:35:56 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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Tony Allen's career ends with the Celtics' season.

heh?

I will forever give up posting on any sports related blog if Tony Allen has an NBA contract next year.
God bless and good night!


Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2008, 01:46:09 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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As for his role in this years playoffs ... it's been too long. I wouldn't play him at all. Playing Tony Allen means James Posey has to play power forward which I'm not wild about.

Or it means that Pierce or Posey can't keep up with Rip and he gets in for Posey, while Posey gets on the bench. But with how unproductive and "bad" or bench PF play has been, I wouldn't be too bothered with seeing a small lineup here and there, especially against the Pistons who apparently don't bother to attack the basket much and are more of a midrange jump shooting team.

I don't think Tony Allen can guard Rip Hamilton so that (Posey's inability to defend Rip) makes no difference to me.

I can see that being the case, but we'll see. I think with some adjustments Tony can keep up better with Rip... the problem with Posey was that Hamilton drove on him fairly easily and Pierce ended up fouling him on the play because of Posey's problem guarding him.

I'd give Tony one more shot if Posey isn't up to the task, but with a shorter leash.  I like Pierce to stay on Prince myself.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2008, 01:46:43 PM »

Offline Redz

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Tony Allen's career ends with the Celtics' season.

heh?

I will forever give up posting on any sports related blog if Tony Allen has an NBA contract next year.


Do we have witnesses here?

I'm not a huge Tony Allen fan at this point, but you might want to aim a little lower on a "guaranteed out of the NBA" claim.

Do you think he'll get a better offer outside the league and jump on it, or do you just think he's fallen so badly that no one will give the guy a shot in the NBA?
Yup

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2008, 01:46:49 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Tony Allen's career ends with the Celtics' season.

heh?

I will forever give up posting on any sports related blog if Tony Allen has an NBA contract next year.

Like we believe that...

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2008, 02:08:12 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Here's the answer: the bench. Even if he looks like a good matchup for this series, as others have said, it's been too long. And I don't really blame Doc. The sad truth, btw, it's that our bench has been crap this post-season. Only Posey and PJ have been contributing in a regular basis.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2008, 02:11:21 PM »

Offline CDawg834

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Tony Allen is the best scorer off the bench. He's the only bench player capable of creating his own offense. He's also the only bench player capable of creating offense for his teammates.

He's also responsible for about 34543 broken remote controls.  8)

Quote
His turnovers look worse than they are (in terms of volume) because they're mostly unforced turnovers and completely unnecessary turnovers.

Umm...aren't unforced and unnecessary turnovers the worst kind of turnovers??

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2008, 02:40:28 PM »

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Quote
His turnovers look worse than they are (in terms of volume) because they're mostly unforced turnovers and completely unnecessary turnovers.

Umm...aren't unforced and unnecessary turnovers the worst kind of turnovers??

I said in terms of volume .... feels like there's more than there actually is because you always notice the stupid turnovers when they happen. Tony's turnovers are mostly stupid turnovers so you notice them more than the others turnovers, makes it feel like it's happening an awful lot.

1.9 turnovers in 30 minutes as a starter this season
1.3 turnovers in 16.4 minutes as a bench player this season

I can live with that. Allen does enough good things elsewhere to negate that ... namely he's the only player outside of Paul Pierce who consistently takes the ball to the rim.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2008, 02:47:56 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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Tony Allen's career ends with the Celtics' season.

heh?

I will forever give up posting on any sports related blog if Tony Allen has an NBA contract next year.

Like we believe that...

Believe it or not, I will, because if he's still in the NBA, then I clearly have no clue what I'm talking about, and my eye for basketball talent has gone blind.
God bless and good night!


Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2008, 02:48:20 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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While I'll concur that most of Tony's problems lie with Tony, (and within his cranial confines), I also feel it's a bit unfair to assess his performance of late, as he's not been given the tools with which to do his best. A coach's job, among other things, is to put his team in the best position to win, and to maximize the talents of each player ... this hasn't been applied to TA, I feel ... at least not objectively.

Clearly, Tony is not a point guard, and should really not be playing that position extensively, especially where he's struggling with other issues to begin with. He's a shooting guard primarily, that's the position where he thrives, and yet Doc keeps playing him where he really shouldn't be, and where the expectations are beyond what he should be asked to take on. Keep in mind that his injury is one that very often leaves a person permanently disabled, let alone able to play professional sports, and that the emotional scars can be just as permanent, and much more difficult to deal with.

I'm really not trying to pass this off on Doc, or make excuses for Tony - I think he has to step-up a great deal more and get past these emotional barriers ... he's at the professional level afterall, and can't expect the powers-that-be to keep "nursing" him along. But in order to realistically give him the best tools to do his job with, he should be put at the position that he's most accomplished at, and most comfortable with ... it's what a good coach does with every player, and I feel Tony should be given the same consideration.

As another aspect of Doc's head-scratching rotation, he's been using Tony primarily for defense of late, and I think that's certainly where TA is the strongest right now. It's definitely not maximizing what Tony has to offer, however, and that's a shame. Yes, he's a nightmare when it comes to turnovers, but how much of that is just plain attributable to his being asked to handle the ball for the majority of the time, and play a position that's really not his forte?

Many will say I am making excuses for him, but to those I say, ask yourself this: How well would Ray adapt if he were asked to play point for extended periods? Would his turnovers increase, too? I think so .... I think that's just a hazard of playing point guard, no matter who it is. Tony is a pure 2-guard, and that's where he should be. For some reason that eludes me, Doc has seen fit to put this very talented kid in a spot he shouldn't be in, and it's really not the wisest decision, and doesn't play to Tony's strong points. I honestly see no concrete reason why we need four point-guards, even defensively.

Tony's got issues, I think we can all agree on that, and they lie primarily in a place where only Tony can affect them. But despite those problems, his talents and abilities should be maximized and encouraged, and not go the route of the proverbial square-peg-in-a-round-hole. That's what I feel is being done with him right now, and I don't think it's right, for either the player himself or the team. Doc's choice to put a guy who's struggling in the first place, into a position that doesn't play to his strengths, should be getting at least as much scrutiny as Tony is himself, because that's where much of the problem lies.

If I had to make a decision right now based on what TA's present value to this team is, I'd unfortunately have to go along with getting rid of him, and that would bother me a bit ... because I truly like the kid. I think he's a wealth of basketball talent, has a great deal of character, and a great work-ethic. Problem is, that's not enough to cut it at this level, and he's got to find his way out of this "funk" before he goes the way of the Great Auk. I just wish Doc would put him in the best position to be able to do that, and not throw another issue onto the heap by playing him at the wrong spot.

Yes, when you're playing at the NBA level and getting paid this kind of money, you've got to pull yourself up by the boot-straps and push on, regardless of the issues. It seems like Tony can't get out of his own way right now, and the majority of the responsibility should be his, to get past the "head" issues and just play ball at the level he's capable of. But he needs help, too, like we all do at times, and the coaching staff should be the ones that he looks to for that help. When something's not working correctly, you have to use the correct tools to fix it properly, and I honestly don't think that's being done with Tony.

I think the place to start is locking him in at shooting guard, and not asking him to run a team and take on that extra responsibility, when he's having a tough enough time with just getting beyond the trauma and emotional residue left from his injury and the resulting rehab. I personally think we need more "shoring-up" at that position than we do at point guard anyway, and I like the idea of a House/TA or even a Cassell/TA tandem in the regular rotation.

I do think time is running out for Tony, at least here in Boston, so why not utilize that time left in getting a better picture of where he stands, (physically and mentally), and get a more solid, consistent contribution from him in the process? Give the guy a clearly-defined role, obvious responsibilities and assignments, and let him at least get in a groove with a position he knows well. Not only will it strengthen the team, I feel, but it will maximize his talents and make it much easier to assess his weaknesses and address his problems.

What would you do with Tony Allen if you were coach? Is he worth more investment, or is he beyond salvaging?

Late-night Bahku, at his best!  Though as you might have seen yesterday, I don't fully line up with everything that's been said here, it's another classically eloquent post and a great thread to start.  Might I be correct in wondering if this was at least partially inspired by yesterday's TA discussion late in the comments of the Daily Babble, when an Oklahoma State admissions evaluator took issue with an 'aside' comment in the column about TA's basketball IQ? (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3171&Itemid=260)

I would say that I think you may be putting a bit more of this on Doc than I'm comfortable with, but I certainly agree with your acknowledgment that Doc didn't have much choice early in the season when he used TA in spot roles on the occasions on which Rondo was injured.  In his last few appearances, I'm not sure how many times we've seen him at the point spot.  There have been some times when he has been in the game and the team has cross-switched defensively so that he guards the opposing point guard, but we haven't seen much of his handling the ball over the last half the season and his few minutes in the playoffs.

I'm in full agreement with the overall sentiment, Bahku, that what is most frustrating here is that I really want to see the kid succeed.  Like you, I love his athleticism and his effort.  I'll stop a bit short of the "great character" label you've bestowed upon him if only because -- as Roy brought up yesterday -- my knowledge of his history with the law, although limited, hasn't left me particularly impressed.  I'm going to try to learn more in that regard so I can form as fair an opinion as possible in that department, but I'm not thrilled with what I've learned about him away from the court thus far.

I personally have no real issue with the way Doc has used him thus far in the playoffs.  He did an admirable job in spot situations earlier in the season but not a spectacular one, and opportunities granted or not, he simply isn't one of the eight or nine best players on this team.  Bringing him in for a few minutes when this team is in need of an energy boost or when Doc just wants to try something different defensively for a few minutes is fine by me.  But after that, he isn't at a point yet where he is ready to be someone who can make consistent solid contributions.  I think we could definitely be fortunate to catch lightning in a bottle on an occasion (or a few) down the stretch of the playoffs of he happens to get in and make a play here and there at opportune moments, but there is no need to mess with the rotation to start turning him into some sort of mainstay this season.

As I wrote yesterday, as a fan of this team, I'll spend the rest of Tony's tenure in the green rooting as hard as I can for him and continuously talking myself into believing that TA is going to get past the mental issues to become a big-time contributor or at least a dependable rotation guy for the Celts.  Because like so many others, that's what I do as a fan: I believe.  But in reality, if he ends up leaving, he'll be a player this team can certainly live without in the long run.

Either way, TP for an insightful post and a great discussion-starter, Bahku.  Always a pleasure to read your stuff.  And to you too, CDawg, for the amusing remote control one-liner.

-sw


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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2008, 02:50:13 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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Tony Allen's career ends with the Celtics' season.

heh?

I will forever give up posting on any sports related blog if Tony Allen has an NBA contract next year.


Do we have witnesses here?

I'm not a huge Tony Allen fan at this point, but you might want to aim a little lower on a "guaranteed out of the NBA" claim.

Do you think he'll get a better offer outside the league and jump on it, or do you just think he's fallen so badly that no one will give the guy a shot in the NBA?

He's had two dehabilitating knee injuries (one on each one!), off court problems, and he has a basketball (and actual) IQ that is...below average.  Why would anyone sign this guy at this point?  There's way better talent out there.

The TA love fest is yet another example of the Celticsblog sentimentalism I referred to yesterday - I understand supporting your team, but the undying love for everyone that puts on a Celtics uniform is outrageous.  You gotta draw the line somewhere.
God bless and good night!


Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 02:51:16 PM »

Offline micah kenneth

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Tony Allen is Boston's best defender outside of KG, he does play better on the ball defense than off the ball but he's not a bad off the ball defender, Rondo is without a doubt the best off the ball defender and I would say KG and Tony are second .
I know that Tony hasn't played up to last years expectations but he's still recovering and I expect next year he's going to be his old self in terms of intensity both offensively and defensively, with that said I still think he needs to play, his defense is still very valuable to this team.
And he still attacks the basket on a regular basis and that's something this team needs.
I don't care what anyone says Doc Rivers is at best an average coach he's not by far one of the smarter coaches in the league, in fact I would prefer the Tom Tib to be the head coach over Doc Rivers.
Why haven't Doc figured out that nearly every time Paul Pierce brings the ball up court to start the offense it nearly always results in a turnover or an unproductive attempt to score. Love Paul's game but the further he handles the ball from the basket the more turnover prone he is.
Paul is a much better catch and attack player from 10 - 20ft from the basket, in fact when he's getting the ball within that range he's one of the better offensive players in the league, half the time he ends up with free throws ! The secret of success with Paul is where he catches the ball for offense.
As for KG, he's playing too far from the basket as well, he's relying on jump shots too much, and as a result he's not able to help out with offensive rebounds when he's not taking a shot, Boston needs help in a big way on the offensive board !
So far our best offensive rebounder is Rajon Rondo  and Leon Powe who get very little play, Leon deserves more play.
Kendrick is of little value to this team offensively or defensively
Ray Allen unless he's going to continue to come out of his offensive drought should be playing behind Posey and Tony Allen, Ray is a defensive weakling, so unless he's able to offset his defensive liability with offense he needs to play behind James Posey and Tony Allen !
Rajon is getting an education in these playoffs and thats fine he's very young with a world of talent, I expect him to be a premier point guard within the next 2 - 3 years, his offense will continually get better and better with each year

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2008, 02:56:59 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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The TA love fest is yet another example of the Celticsblog sentimentalism I referred to yesterday - I understand supporting your team, but the undying love for everyone that puts on a Celtics uniform is outrageous.  You gotta draw the line somewhere.

I hear what you're saying, Brick, but I don't think it's fair to rule out the prospect of a happy medium here.  As someone who tries to practice this approach (not saying I'm always wholly successful), I think it's possible -- and reasonable -- for us as fans to put our undying faith, belief and support behind our players simply because they wear the green but also at the same time to evaluate them as players objectively, no?  If you're interested in further clarification of the point I'm trying to make here, I'd recommend looking at my comments on "rooting for TA as long as he is in green" above.  Curious for your thoughts on this.

I love this team because they are our Celtics, no matter what the names on the backs of the uniforms are.  But we can still be rational about them, too.  I don't think it's necessarily one or the other.  Just my two cents on that though.  Curious for your thoughts.

-sw


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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2008, 03:08:18 PM »

Offline dark_lord

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i have never been a tony supporter.  the following are my issues as i see problematic with his play:

1.  turnovers.  too many of them, many of them are careless and/or done with minimal defensive pressure

2. bball iq.  i think he tends to force things that arent there and makes poor decisions. his intent is normally good, but his execution is usually horrible.

3. defense.  i know there are a lot of supporters of tony's defense on the blog, but i would say at his best, his is slightly above average.  he is solid on the ball, however he leaves his feet WAY too much.  any offensive player with half a brain knows to upfake or hesitate when tony is on him. off of the ball, tony needs help. he tends to be out of position to take a charge, trap, or double team. i realize part of this is due to tony guarding good offensive players and leaving his man would not be wise, so it isn't a huge issue for me, as the aforementioned on the ball defense.

4.  his pounding the ball when dribbling.  any1 who has played know that the harder you bounce the ball, then less control you have and how mch more you are prone to lose control of the ball or turn it over.  tony consistently pounds it when he dribbles.

5. wasted athleticism.  tony reminds me of marcus banks, in that they both have all the physical attributes, but will never reach their potential due to their low bball iq and failure to improve their weaknesses.

6 dribbling.  when i discuss tony with friends, i have a tony 4 dribble rule.  nothing good ever come from tony dribbling more than 4 times per possession.  this will maximize his skills of getting to the hoop (which is definately a positive he possesses), while minimizes the possibility of getting out of control. if he cant get to the hoop in 4 dribbles, he should move the ball.