Author Topic: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?  (Read 23125 times)

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Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« on: May 24, 2008, 03:19:34 AM »

Offline Bahku

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While I'll concur that most of Tony's problems lie with Tony, (and within his cranial confines), I also feel it's a bit unfair to assess his performance of late, as he's not been given the tools with which to do his best. A coach's job, among other things, is to put his team in the best position to win, and to maximize the talents of each player ... this hasn't been applied to TA, I feel ... at least not objectively.

Clearly, Tony is not a point guard, and should really not be playing that position extensively, especially where he's struggling with other issues to begin with. He's a shooting guard primarily, that's the position where he thrives, and yet Doc keeps playing him where he really shouldn't be, and where the expectations are beyond what he should be asked to take on. Keep in mind that his injury is one that very often leaves a person permanently disabled, let alone able to play professional sports, and that the emotional scars can be just as permanent, and much more difficult to deal with.

I'm really not trying to pass this off on Doc, or make excuses for Tony - I think he has to step-up a great deal more and get past these emotional barriers ... he's at the professional level afterall, and can't expect the powers-that-be to keep "nursing" him along. But in order to realistically give him the best tools to do his job with, he should be put at the position that he's most accomplished at, and most comfortable with ... it's what a good coach does with every player, and I feel Tony should be given the same consideration.

As another aspect of Doc's head-scratching rotation, he's been using Tony primarily for defense of late, and I think that's certainly where TA is the strongest right now. It's definitely not maximizing what Tony has to offer, however, and that's a shame. Yes, he's a nightmare when it comes to turnovers, but how much of that is just plain attributable to his being asked to handle the ball for the majority of the time, and play a position that's really not his forte?

Many will say I am making excuses for him, but to those I say, ask yourself this: How well would Ray adapt if he were asked to play point for extended periods? Would his turnovers increase, too? I think so .... I think that's just a hazard of playing point guard, no matter who it is. Tony is a pure 2-guard, and that's where he should be. For some reason that eludes me, Doc has seen fit to put this very talented kid in a spot he shouldn't be in, and it's really not the wisest decision, and doesn't play to Tony's strong points. I honestly see no concrete reason why we need four point-guards, even defensively.

Tony's got issues, I think we can all agree on that, and they lie primarily in a place where only Tony can affect them. But despite those problems, his talents and abilities should be maximized and encouraged, and not go the route of the proverbial square-peg-in-a-round-hole. That's what I feel is being done with him right now, and I don't think it's right, for either the player himself or the team. Doc's choice to put a guy who's struggling in the first place, into a position that doesn't play to his strengths, should be getting at least as much scrutiny as Tony is himself, because that's where much of the problem lies.

If I had to make a decision right now based on what TA's present value to this team is, I'd unfortunately have to go along with getting rid of him, and that would bother me a bit ... because I truly like the kid. I think he's a wealth of basketball talent, has a great deal of character, and a great work-ethic. Problem is, that's not enough to cut it at this level, and he's got to find his way out of this "funk" before he goes the way of the Great Auk. I just wish Doc would put him in the best position to be able to do that, and not throw another issue onto the heap by playing him at the wrong spot.

Yes, when you're playing at the NBA level and getting paid this kind of money, you've got to pull yourself up by the boot-straps and push on, regardless of the issues. It seems like Tony can't get out of his own way right now, and the majority of the responsibility should be his, to get past the "head" issues and just play ball at the level he's capable of. But he needs help, too, like we all do at times, and the coaching staff should be the ones that he looks to for that help. When something's not working correctly, you have to use the correct tools to fix it properly, and I honestly don't think that's being done with Tony.

I think the place to start is locking him in at shooting guard, and not asking him to run a team and take on that extra responsibility, when he's having a tough enough time with just getting beyond the trauma and emotional residue left from his injury and the resulting rehab. I personally think we need more "shoring-up" at that position than we do at point guard anyway, and I like the idea of a House/TA or even a Cassell/TA tandem in the regular rotation.

I do think time is running out for Tony, at least here in Boston, so why not utilize that time left in getting a better picture of where he stands, (physically and mentally), and get a more solid, consistent contribution from him in the process? Give the guy a clearly-defined role, obvious responsibilities and assignments, and let him at least get in a groove with a position he knows well. Not only will it strengthen the team, I feel, but it will maximize his talents and make it much easier to assess his weaknesses and address his problems.

What would you do with Tony Allen if you were coach? Is he worth more investment, or is he beyond salvaging?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 04:52:03 AM by Bahku »
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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 04:12:11 AM »

Offline vl819

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Good thoughts Bahku. I agree completely. TP.

Tony has proven he has a nack for driving to the hoop and finishing, i really think that would benefit the offense greatly on these road games.

I'd love to see a backcourt with Tony & House/Sam.




Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2008, 06:24:59 AM »

Offline kenmaine

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Good post, BUT, it's too late to worry about TA for this season. This is a lost season for him. Like Tommy, I keep thinking back to last year when he played really well in Pierce's absence. So yes, he does have the ability. People overrate the turnovers a little- because when they happen they're so obvious it's like "OMG what the hell is he doing"- but his game certainly is flawed. To be honest, and I've watched most games the last few years, I don't even remember if he has an outside shot! If he does, it hasn't been there lately.
Oh well, he's probably gone next year, but I hope he gets a decent contract. You have to feel for him- those knee injuries didn't help his career.




Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2008, 08:34:42 AM »

Offline Casperian

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I think Tony can be happy that he plays at all...

This is the ECF, not the last 5 games of a 20-win-season. You should have a rotation of 8-9 men, imo. He only plays because Doc is mentally challenged when it comes to rotations.

You have to set your priorities, and Tony´s groove is not on my list. I´d rather see them winning the ECF and the championship. If you think Tony has qualities that are crucial to the success of this team, I could understand why you would want more PT for him. I just can`t see them...
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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 08:55:22 AM »

Offline PlayRyanGomes

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I don't understand the fascination with Tony Allen.  He's the last guy on the bench.  He's a fringe NBA player.  He lacks the ability to dribble with his head up.  Every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut and he gets to the rim but he's not a good penetrator like people make him out to be.  Last game at one point he wildly threw the ball off the backboard after driving to the hoop.  The play was downright bizarre.  Fortunately, KG bailed him out.  His defense is completely overrated.  If you watched the last game the Pistons made a mockery of him as he literally bit on every pump fake.  He looked like an inexperienced rookie.  He was not a defensive stopper, he was a defensive liability.
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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 09:02:40 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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...it's too late to worry about TA for this season. This is a lost season for him.

Quote from: Casperian
I think Tony can be happy that he plays at all...

This is the ECF, not the last 5 games of a 20-win-season. You should have a rotation of 8-9 men, imo. He only plays because Doc is mentally challenged when it comes to rotations.

You have to set your priorities, and Tony´s groove is not on my list. I´d rather see them winning the ECF and the championship. If you think Tony has qualities that are crucial to the success of this team, I could understand why you would want more PT for him. I just can`t see them...

I tend to agree with the two sentiments expressed above.  It's too late, and Doc needs to settle on a rotation.  He already has enough trouble deciding between Powe, P.J., and BBD, and Cassell and House.  Asking him to find minutes for Tony is just too much.

Whether it's Doc's fault, Tony's fault, or just fate, Tony isn't going to be able to contribute much this season.  Allowing his to work himself into shape would be to the team's detriment (as showcased by us being outscored by 10 points in the 4 1/2 minutes Tony was on the floor.)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Tony leads our teams in turnover-per-minute, and leads all our guards in personal-fouls-per-minute.  He's 0 for his 18 from 3PT.  He's rusty, and he has no confidence in himself.  While I understand the suggestion is to give him a consistent role to allow him to regain that confidence, I think the consequences of allowing Tony to play into shape are too high to chance it.

(I also disagree that Tony has good character, but that discussion probably isn't terribly relevant.  He is a hard worker, though.)


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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2008, 09:05:57 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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TA needs regular minutes.  You can't sit him for two weeks and then expect to push a button and have him perform.

TA will become a solid rotation player as soon as he leaves the Celtics--which will probably happen in June.  I do not expect the team to make the qualifying offer.  It's not a lost season for him.  It's a lost player for the Celtics, part of the price you pay for watching Cassell flub around out there.

TA would be a great fit in NY for D'Antoni's uptempo system.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2008, 10:40:48 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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...it's too late to worry about TA for this season. This is a lost season for him.

Quote from: Casperian
I think Tony can be happy that he plays at all...

This is the ECF, not the last 5 games of a 20-win-season. You should have a rotation of 8-9 men, imo. He only plays because Doc is mentally challenged when it comes to rotations.

You have to set your priorities, and Tony´s groove is not on my list. I´d rather see them winning the ECF and the championship. If you think Tony has qualities that are crucial to the success of this team, I could understand why you would want more PT for him. I just can`t see them...

I tend to agree with the two sentiments expressed above.  It's too late, and Doc needs to settle on a rotation.  He already has enough trouble deciding between Powe, P.J., and BBD, and Cassell and House.  Asking him to find minutes for Tony is just too much.

Whether it's Doc's fault, Tony's fault, or just fate, Tony isn't going to be able to contribute much this season.  Allowing his to work himself into shape would be to the team's detriment (as showcased by us being outscored by 10 points in the 4 1/2 minutes Tony was on the floor.)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Tony leads our teams in turnover-per-minute, and leads all our guards in personal-fouls-per-minute.  He's 0 for his 18 from 3PT.  He's rusty, and he has no confidence in himself.  While I understand the suggestion is to give him a consistent role to allow him to regain that confidence, I think the consequences of allowing Tony to play into shape are too high to chance it.

(I also disagree that Tony has good character, but that discussion probably isn't terribly relevant.  He is a hard worker, though.)



TP for Hobbs for a good analysis. It's time to turn Tony Allen loose - and I'm not at all convinced that he's got a future in the NBA. You simply cannot trust him with the basketball, and he was one of the poorest defenders we ran out there Thursday night. I do believe I could upfake him into the air.

Been here long enough to recognize the irrational attachment some Celtics fans have to the youth movement - but it's long past time to recognize it for what it was: a successful attempt to lure a couple of clubs into trading stars for dimes on the dollar. That group never was going to win a thing on the floor, no matter how long you held them together. It was Al, perhaps West, maybe Perkins and a cast of disposable pieces.

Time for Tony to go. He's a below average pro. We need the roster spot for a smarter player.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2008, 10:58:49 AM by CoachBo »
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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2008, 10:53:54 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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While I'll concur that most of Tony's problems lie with Tony, (and within his cranial confines), I also feel it's a bit unfair to assess his performance of late, as he's not been given the tools with which to do his best. A coach's job, among other things, is to put his team in the best position to win, and to maximize the talents of each player ... this hasn't been applied to TA, I feel ... at least not objectively.

Clearly, Tony is not a point guard, and should really not be playing that position extensively, especially where he's struggling with other issues to begin with. He's a shooting guard primarily, that's the position where he thrives, and yet Doc keeps playing him where he really shouldn't be, and where the expectations are beyond what he should be asked to take on. Keep in mind that his injury is one that very often leaves a person permanently disabled, let alone able to play professional sports, and that the emotional scars can be just as permanent, and much more difficult to deal with.

I'm really not trying to pass this off on Doc, or make excuses for Tony - I think he has to step-up a great deal more and get past these emotional barriers ... he's at the professional level afterall, and can't expect the powers-that-be to keep "nursing" him along. But in order to realistically give him the best tools to do his job with, he should be put at the position that he's most accomplished at, and most comfortable with ... it's what a good coach does with every player, and I feel Tony should be given the same consideration.

As another aspect of Doc's head-scratching rotation, he's been using Tony primarily for defense of late, and I think that's certainly where TA is the strongest right now. It's definitely not maximizing what Tony has to offer, however, and that's a shame. Yes, he's a nightmare when it comes to turnovers, but how much of that is just plain attributable to his being asked to handle the ball for the majority of the time, and play a position that's really not his forte?

Many will say I am making excuses for him, but to those I say, ask yourself this: How well would Ray adapt if he were asked to play point for extended periods? Would his turnovers increase, too? I think so .... I think that's just a hazard of playing point guard, no matter who it is. Tony is a pure 2-guard, and that's where he should be. For some reason that eludes me, Doc has seen fit to put this very talented kid in a spot he shouldn't be in, and it's really not the wisest decision, and doesn't play to Tony's strong points. I honestly see no concrete reason why we need four point-guards, even defensively.

Tony's got issues, I think we can all agree on that, and they lie primarily in a place where only Tony can affect them. But despite those problems, his talents and abilities should be maximized and encouraged, and not go the route of the proverbial square-peg-in-a-round-hole. That's what I feel is being done with him right now, and I don't think it's right, for either the player himself or the team. Doc's choice to put a guy who's struggling in the first place, into a position that doesn't play to his strengths, should be getting at least as much scrutiny as Tony is himself, because that's where much of the problem lies.

If I had to make a decision right now based on what TA's present value to this team is, I'd unfortunately have to go along with getting rid of him, and that would bother me a bit ... because I truly like the kid. I think he's a wealth of basketball talent, has a great deal of character, and a great work-ethic. Problem is, that's not enough to cut it at this level, and he's got to find his way out of this "funk" before he goes the way of the Great Auk. I just wish Doc would put him in the best position to be able to do that, and not throw another issue onto the heap by playing him at the wrong spot.

Yes, when you're playing at the NBA level and getting paid this kind of money, you've got to pull yourself up by the boot-straps and push on, regardless of the issues. It seems like Tony can't get out of his own way right now, and the majority of the responsibility should be his, to get past the "head" issues and just play ball at the level he's capable of. But he needs help, too, like we all do at times, and the coaching staff should be the ones that he looks to for that help. When something's not working correctly, you have to use the correct tools to fix it properly, and I honestly don't think that's being done with Tony.

I think the place to start is locking him in at shooting guard, and not asking him to run a team and take on that extra responsibility, when he's having a tough enough time with just getting beyond the trauma and emotional residue left from his injury and the resulting rehab. I personally think we need more "shoring-up" at that position than we do at point guard anyway, and I like the idea of a House/TA or even a Cassell/TA tandem in the regular rotation.

I do think time is running out for Tony, at least here in Boston, so why not utilize that time left in getting a better picture of where he stands, (physically and mentally), and get a more solid, consistent contribution from him in the process? Give the guy a clearly-defined role, obvious responsibilities and assignments, and let him at least get in a groove with a position he knows well. Not only will it strengthen the team, I feel, but it will maximize his talents and make it much easier to assess his weaknesses and address his problems.

What would you do with Tony Allen if you were coach? Is he worth more investment, or is he beyond salvaging?

This has nothing to do with how Doc uses him. Tony critics, need to take a look at how he has been used, but to say that the way Tony was used is Doc's fault is completely inaccurate. It's a roster problem, he filled a need, that's it. I really wonder how many times Tony has played PG for the Celtics since we got Sam...

I agree that Tony Allen is a SG through and through, but don't start putting Tony's inadaquecies on Doc. Tony was needed to play PG because of circumstances, not because Doc wanted to play him there.

It's like blaming D'Antoni for giving Amare a lot of minutes at the Center position. What are you going to do when your roster doesn't have capable players in the position? Someone has to play it.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2008, 10:56:51 AM »

Offline the_Bird

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Tony needs to enroll in the Mike James School of Career Salavation.  By that, I mean he needs to latch onto a mediocre team that's in need of scoring, get into the starting rotation, put up 17-18 points per night on a 25-win team, and get himself an MLE-level contract from one of the many morons populating the league's GM chairs.  

Tony can score when given some minutes - but he's not good enough to be a star, and he's not good enough to be getting serious playing time here (or any team with legitimate championship aspirations).  When he gets in a groove, when he gets his confidence, he can be a helluva baller - but he's SO [dang] INCONSISTENT, you just can't count on him.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 11:45:21 AM »

Offline Brickowski

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Tony Allen and Delonte West will be solid rotation players in the NBA long after Ray Allen has retired to the golf course.

Meanwhile, Rodney Stuckey will continue to torch the Celtics' second unit.

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2008, 12:20:52 PM »

Offline indeedproceed

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The question is: "Who will be our solid guard defender with the ability to create offense in brief but somewhat consistent spurts without making so many mistakes he freezes himself out of the rotation?" The answer is not Tony Allen.

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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2008, 12:45:17 PM »

Offline BrickJames

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Tony Allen's career ends with the Celtics' season.
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Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2008, 01:12:15 PM »

Offline Redz

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Tony Allen's career ends with the Celtics' season.

heh?
Yup

Re: Tony Allen: What's The Answer?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2008, 01:15:29 PM »

Offline Who

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Tony Allen is the best scorer off the bench. He's the only bench player capable of creating his own offense. He's also the only bench player capable of creating offense for his teammates. Tony is also a quality on the ball defender.

I agree that people overrate his turnovers. He turned it over 1.9 times in 30 minutes a night as a starter this season. I can live with that. His turnovers look worse than they are (in terms of volume) because they're mostly unforced turnovers and completely unneccessary turnovers. He attacks the rim harder and more often than any other Celtic. I can live with a few turnovers.

As for his role in this years playoffs ... it's been too long. I wouldn't play him at all. Playing Tony Allen means James Posey has to play power forward which I'm not wild about.