Great Rotations by Doc!

[Roy Hobbs]

Mike Brown and Doc are different coaches.  How does Doc making substitutions show that Mike Brown was "scrambling"?  That didn't happen.  I'm not sure what you were talking about, but you were wrong.

ummm, you were wrong...but don't let the facts get in your way.

Snappy answer, but we both have access to the game log.  Where's the evidence of this "scrambling" that Mike Brown was doing?  There wasn't any.  You said something false, and you got called on it and don't have an answer.

[winsomme]

I'm amazed at how every win seems to translate into: "Doc did a great job" ... just because we have a victory, doesn't mean that Doc coached a great game .... I just don't see it. There were nearly as many head-scratching moments tonight as usual, but because we hung on to win, (in a very close game), people see the need to take the "Doc's Vindication" mantle and run with it.

The players dug down deep and pulled this one out, especially Pierce, but I just didn't see anything that, for me, translated into "great" coaching. There have been games this year where the rotation was great, and times when Doc deserved praise for his coaching, (although I'm beginning to think that a good deal of those may have been luck), but I don't think today's game qualified.

I think the substitutions and play-calling could have been much better in this one, and that it was far too close a game because of it. I'll give credit to Doc when it's due, but today wasn't one of his best ... by any means. Sorry, but I just can't jump on this bandwagon ... too much tongue-in-cheek.

the problem is that the measuring stick keeps changing from the most ardent Doc critics...

for the longest time it was held that good coaching was measured by winning close games...

and now we win a close game and then the goalposts once again get shuttled around  saying stuff like we won but only because Doc didn't put up any road blocks for the players..

there is a total double standard applied to Doc.

if you want to say players win games not coaches, then say it about  Byron Scott or Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich.

i can go and point out tons of mistakes made by Byron Scott in the playoffs, but it doesn't meant that he is only doing an "adeqaute" job....

[winsomme]

Mike Brown and Doc are different coaches.  How does Doc making substitutions show that Mike Brown was "scrambling"?  That didn't happen.  I'm not sure what you were talking about, but you were wrong.

ummm, you were wrong...but don't let the facts get in your way.

Snappy answer, but we both have access to the game log.  Where's the evidence of this "scrambling" that Mike Brown was doing?  There wasn't any.  You said something false, and you got called on it and don't have an answer.

ummm, the game log has been laid out for you.

you claimed something that was proven untrue by the facts, and now are simply claiming you are right because you say you are right.....and pretending that the only thing you challenged me on was the "scrambling" assessment...

clearly Doc was making a ton of substitutions that included House, Posey, Allen, Rondo and Brown.

the Cavs were moving in Ilgauskas, Wallace, Smith and Jones.

plus, Docs subs not only affect the players that the Cavs have on the floor, but the way they defend....

give it a rest...please.

[DrD]

One thing I think Doc did that will also pay dividends was putting Ray back in the game at the end to hit those free throws. If Ray doesn't get back on track there is no way we can win the whole thing. We need his ability to spread the floor and hit big shots. Those two clutch free throws leave him with a good taste in his mouth and allow him to feel a part of this win. If he had sat the rest of the game he might have had a tougher time of the next series.

Excellent point since Ray is already having head problems as it is.

[winsomme]

the way he managed the end of the game running players in and out was exceptional...he had Brown scrambling.

Huh?  What special substitutions were those, and how did it force Brown to adjust?  The only adjustment Brown was making at the end was Wallace-for-Jones subs, which were independent of any Doc substitution.

I mean, I'm not criticizing Doc here, but you're giving him credit for something that didn't happen.  What evidence do you have that Mike Brown was "scrambling"?

you stated:

The only adjustment Brown was making at the end was Wallace-for-Jones subs, which were independent of any Doc substitution.



Ilgauskas Substitution replaced by Wallace   0:58   


Wallace Substitution replaced by Smith   1:21

two non-Wallace for Jones subs....

[Bahku]

I'm amazed at how every win seems to translate into: "Doc did a great job" ... just because we have a victory, doesn't mean that Doc coached a great game .... I just don't see it. There were nearly as many head-scratching moments tonight as usual, but because we hung on to win, (in a very close game), people see the need to take the "Doc's Vindication" mantle and run with it.

The players dug down deep and pulled this one out, especially Pierce, but I just didn't see anything that, for me, translated into "great" coaching. There have been games this year where the rotation was great, and times when Doc deserved praise for his coaching, (although I'm beginning to think that a good deal of those may have been luck), but I don't think today's game qualified.

I think the substitutions and play-calling could have been much better in this one, and that it was far too close a game because of it. I'll give credit to Doc when it's due, but today wasn't one of his best ... by any means. Sorry, but I just can't jump on this bandwagon ... too much tongue-in-cheek.

the problem is that the measuring stick keeps changing from the most ardent Doc critics...

for the longest time it was held that good coaching was measured by winning close games...

and now we win a close game and then the goalposts once again get shuttled around  saying stuff like we won but only because Doc didn't put up any road blocks for the players..

there is a total double standard applied to Doc.

if you want to say players win games not coaches, then say it about  Byron Scott or Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich.

i can go and point out tons of mistakes made by Byron Scott in the playoffs, but it doesn't meant that he is only doing an "adeqaute" job....

A lot of the problems with this discussion, are that some here are known as being on one side or the other, and each side will never think the other is being objective. I like to think I am being objective, (like we all do), because I've stuck up for Doc many times when I felt he deserved it.

I try very hard to assess his performance on not just statistics and wins, but with my overall impressions from the game, and in how other coaches handle similar situations. I just honestly don't see that he did a "great" job today ... fair, at best. There's just so much about his decision-makming that makes little-to-no sense, and the playoffs, for me, have made it more visible than ever.

I truly think he's in way over his head, and is attempting to perform a job that is far beyond his capabilities. I honestly do like the guy, and I've been pulling for him in the past, but these playoffs have been a wake-up call to me, that this guy has been asked to do too much, and that, while it's certainly not his fault, and he's tried to do the best he can, he just doesn't possess the tools to handle this competently.

[Roy Hobbs]

the way he managed the end of the game running players in and out was exceptional...he had Brown scrambling.

Huh?  What special substitutions were those, and how did it force Brown to adjust?  The only adjustment Brown was making at the end was Wallace-for-Jones subs, which were independent of any Doc substitution.

I mean, I'm not criticizing Doc here, but you're giving him credit for something that didn't happen.  What evidence do you have that Mike Brown was "scrambling"?

you stated:

The only adjustment Brown was making at the end was Wallace-for-Jones subs, which were independent of any Doc substitution.



Ilgauskas Substitution replaced by Wallace   0:58   


Wallace Substitution replaced by Smith   1:21

two non-Wallace for Jones subs....

Pick many nits lately?  How does a big man for big man sub have anything to do with Doc's brilliant substitution pattern, as you suggested?  I fail to see how that's indicative of "scrambling".  Mike Brown was in a bad situation at the end of the game because Pierce went off.  Doc's substitutions in the last two minutes literally amounted to nothing.  I thought the move to get Ray in there for free throws was a good one, but it's not like it was some major game changing moment, and it wasn't particularly brilliant, either.

This is an asinine argument, based upon your blatant mischaracterization of things.  I'm moving on, but feel free to make up more things to give Doc credit for.

[winsomme]

I'm amazed at how every win seems to translate into: "Doc did a great job" ... just because we have a victory, doesn't mean that Doc coached a great game .... I just don't see it. There were nearly as many head-scratching moments tonight as usual, but because we hung on to win, (in a very close game), people see the need to take the "Doc's Vindication" mantle and run with it.

The players dug down deep and pulled this one out, especially Pierce, but I just didn't see anything that, for me, translated into "great" coaching. There have been games this year where the rotation was great, and times when Doc deserved praise for his coaching, (although I'm beginning to think that a good deal of those may have been luck), but I don't think today's game qualified.

I think the substitutions and play-calling could have been much better in this one, and that it was far too close a game because of it. I'll give credit to Doc when it's due, but today wasn't one of his best ... by any means. Sorry, but I just can't jump on this bandwagon ... too much tongue-in-cheek.

the problem is that the measuring stick keeps changing from the most ardent Doc critics...

for the longest time it was held that good coaching was measured by winning close games...

and now we win a close game and then the goalposts once again get shuttled around  saying stuff like we won but only because Doc didn't put up any road blocks for the players..

there is a total double standard applied to Doc.

if you want to say players win games not coaches, then say it about  Byron Scott or Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich.

i can go and point out tons of mistakes made by Byron Scott in the playoffs, but it doesn't meant that he is only doing an "adeqaute" job....

A lot of the problems with this discussion, are that some here are known as being on one side or the other, and each side will never think the other is being objective. I like to think I am being objective, (like we all do), because I've stuck up for Doc many times when I felt he deserved it.

I try very hard to assess his performance on not just statistics and wins, but with my overall impressions from the game, and in how other coaches handle similar situations. I just honestly don't see that he did a "great" job today ... fair, at best. There's just so much about his decision-makming that makes little-to-no sense, and the playoffs, for me, have made it more visible than ever.

I truly think he's in way over his head, and is attempting to perform a job that is far beyond his capabilities. I honestly do like the guy, and I've been pulling for him in the past, but these playoffs have been a wake-up call to me, that this guy has been asked to do too much, and that, while it's certainly not his fault, and he's tried to do the best he can, he just doesn't possess the tools to handle this competently.

well that is probably true about the sides people are on.

i am a very strong Doc supporter, but i also have criticized him often in this series for not going to House and also for not being able to get the team to play well enough to win a road game.....

i don't see a lot of congratulations from the other side as the team now makes it way to the ECF....

anyway, this - as usual - goes no where and rapidly devolves into the same exact debate.

time to leave it, i guess, because no new ground is going to be covered.

[winsomme]

the way he managed the end of the game running players in and out was exceptional...he had Brown scrambling.

Huh?  What special substitutions were those, and how did it force Brown to adjust?  The only adjustment Brown was making at the end was Wallace-for-Jones subs, which were independent of any Doc substitution.

I mean, I'm not criticizing Doc here, but you're giving him credit for something that didn't happen.  What evidence do you have that Mike Brown was "scrambling"?

you stated:

The only adjustment Brown was making at the end was Wallace-for-Jones subs, which were independent of any Doc substitution.



Ilgauskas Substitution replaced by Wallace   0:58   


Wallace Substitution replaced by Smith   1:21

two non-Wallace for Jones subs....

Pick many nits lately?  How does a big man for big man sub have anything to do with Doc's brilliant substitution pattern, as you suggested?  I fail to see how that's indicative of "scrambling".  Mike Brown was in a bad situation at the end of the game because Pierce went off.  Doc's substitutions in the last two minutes literally amounted to nothing.  I thought the move to get Ray in there for free throws was a good one, but it's not like it was some major game changing moment, and it wasn't particularly brilliant, either.

This is an asinine argument, based upon your blatant mischaracterization of things.  I'm moving on, but feel free to make up more things to give Doc credit for.

i am not the only one to make note of Doc's handling of personnel at the end of this game.....but if it makes you feel better to think that this is something cooked up by a pro-Doc guy then so be it.

maybe "scrambling" is over-stating it some.....so let's go with "on his heels".....to be more fair.

[Edgar]

Oh well at least Doc panic attack was well suported by a Full team of veterans that play like that

I like how  he put Rondo to defense at the end to say something goo about doc

LOVED THE GAME

wasnt at chat beacuse This was my first season game I watch with my bro and my father so we were having a blast in family
see u all on chat on tuesday

BEat DETroit!!!
 

[Bahku]

I guess what I see here, is that if the rest of this game had been handled better with rotation, play-calling, match-ups, and post-break sets, that all this fast-and-furious substitution at the end of the game would not have been needed in the first place. These Cavs are not nearly as good a team as this series has made them seem, (we should have blown them out, seriously) and I feel a lack of consistency and expertise on the coaching end is the primary reason.

In order for a team, any team, to be their best, they have to be given the best tools, and be put in the best position, to win. Those tools come from their individual talents and abilities on one hand, and the on-floor combinations, plays called, and motivations from the coaching staff on the other. I honestly don't see that happening here in the playoffs, and it's obvious to me that the lack of consistency and sensibility, leaves these great players we have, scrambling to keep up with the confusion they're thrown into as a result.

[winsomme]

I guess what I see here, is that if the rest of this game had been handled better with rotation, play-calling, match-ups, and post-break sets, that all this fast-and-furious substitution at the end of the game would not have been needed in the first place. These Cavs are not nearly as good a team as this series has made them seem, and I feel a lack of consistency and expertise on the coaching end is the primary reason.

In order for a team, any team, to be their best, they have to be given the best tools, and be put in the best position, to win. Those tools come from their individual talents and abilities on one hand, and the on-floor combinations, plays called, and motivations from the coaching staff on the other. I honestly don't see that happening here in the playoffs, and it's obvious to me that the lack of consistency and sensibility, leaves these great players we have, scrambling to keep up with the confusion they're thrown into as a result.

see, i think the WASH series actually showed that this CLE team is better than many had thought.

they played very good defense in this series. i don't think it is fair to maintain otherwise. Joe Smith also played a ton better than i think anybody would have imagined.

to have closed out a game with maybe one of the two players in the league that could single-handedly win a game for his team in LeBron (the other being Kobe) when said player actually went off (hitting HUGE three's at the end), should not IMO go un-praised.

this was such a massive win for this franchise, and i can't believe i have to fight so hard in this thread to actually congratulate the coach in such tremendous victory.

one that many thought would not happen.

Doc is not a perfect coach. he makes errors. sometimes big one's, but the guy is fighting out there. just like the players. and up till this point he did not fold. just like the players.

[Bahku]

I guess what I see here, is that if the rest of this game had been handled better with rotation, play-calling, match-ups, and post-break sets, that all this fast-and-furious substitution at the end of the game would not have been needed in the first place. These Cavs are not nearly as good a team as this series has made them seem, and I feel a lack of consistency and expertise on the coaching end is the primary reason.

In order for a team, any team, to be their best, they have to be given the best tools, and be put in the best position, to win. Those tools come from their individual talents and abilities on one hand, and the on-floor combinations, plays called, and motivations from the coaching staff on the other. I honestly don't see that happening here in the playoffs, and it's obvious to me that the lack of consistency and sensibility, leaves these great players we have, scrambling to keep up with the confusion they're thrown into as a result.

see, i think the WASH series actually showed that this CLE team is better than many had thought.

they played very good defense in this series. i don't think it is fair to maintain otherwise. Joe Smith also played a ton better than i think anybody would have imagined.

to have closed out a game with maybe one of the two players in the league that could single-handedly win a game for his team in LeBron (the other being Kobe) when said player actually went off (hitting HUGE three's at the end), should not IMO go un-praised.

this was such a massive win for this franchise, and i can't believe i have to fight so hard in this thread to actually congratulate the coach in such tremendous victory.

one that many that would not happen.

I'll agree that the win is the bottom line here, and in my complete pleasure at being able to say "We're moving on", and the spirit of Celtic Pride, I'll say: Congrats Celtics, congrats Doc, and a TP for the good discussion, Wins!

[winsomme]

I guess what I see here, is that if the rest of this game had been handled better with rotation, play-calling, match-ups, and post-break sets, that all this fast-and-furious substitution at the end of the game would not have been needed in the first place. These Cavs are not nearly as good a team as this series has made them seem, and I feel a lack of consistency and expertise on the coaching end is the primary reason.

In order for a team, any team, to be their best, they have to be given the best tools, and be put in the best position, to win. Those tools come from their individual talents and abilities on one hand, and the on-floor combinations, plays called, and motivations from the coaching staff on the other. I honestly don't see that happening here in the playoffs, and it's obvious to me that the lack of consistency and sensibility, leaves these great players we have, scrambling to keep up with the confusion they're thrown into as a result.

see, i think the WASH series actually showed that this CLE team is better than many had thought.

they played very good defense in this series. i don't think it is fair to maintain otherwise. Joe Smith also played a ton better than i think anybody would have imagined.

to have closed out a game with maybe one of the two players in the league that could single-handedly win a game for his team in LeBron (the other being Kobe) when said player actually went off (hitting HUGE three's at the end), should not IMO go un-praised.

this was such a massive win for this franchise, and i can't believe i have to fight so hard in this thread to actually congratulate the coach in such tremendous victory.

one that many that would not happen.

I'll agree that the win is the bottom line here, and in my complete pleasure at being able to say "We're moving on", and the spirit of Celtic Pride, I'll say: Congrats Celtics, congrats Doc, and a TP for the good discussion, Wins!

TP right back atcha.....

and on to the ECF we go..

[WedmanIsMyHero]

If you look at my posting history, you will notice that I am far from a fan of Doc.  He did a solid job today. 

However, it is important to keep things in perspective.  Doc did his job -- he did not prevent the Celtics from winning.  On the one hand, that's great.  But we shouldn't lower the bar too much here. . .

If you want to argue Doc deserves praise than you have to show a substitution he made that was smarter than a substitution the "average" coach would make.  This is part of how they calculate manager win-shares in baseball.

For example, playing House over Cassell in Games 6 and 7 does not count since he had kept House on the bench for 12 games in a row, etc. .

So for those Doc supporters out there, what move did he make that was different than what the mean vote, say, of the fans would have suggested, or what the average coach would have done? 

That is the relevant metric. . .