First Round Game 5 Atlanta Hawks at Boston Celtics, 4/30/08 (8:30pm TNT / CSN)

[Who]

Okay, I know I am in the vast minority and will have a bunch of my Green Clad Family telling me I'm kinda stupid but, I just didn't think the referees were bad tonight. Yes, there were bad calls but those bad calls went both ways and when the refs realized they made a bad call, the makeup call was called at the other end.

Agreed

[Redz]

Awesome game for the C's.  One little spell of being lackadaisical at the start of the 4th but Ray Ray quelled that quick enough.

Gotta take them down in 6 and see what's left of Washington & Cleveland.

[Bahku]

Okay, I know I am in the vast minority and will have a bunch of my Green Clad Family telling me I'm kinda stupid but, I just didn't think the referees were bad tonight. Yes, there were bad calls but those bad calls went both ways and when the refs realized they made a bad call, the makeup call was called at the other end.

The difference between the game here and the games in Atlanta is that the refs in Atlanta injected themselves into the game and made sure they made a difference in the game. The refs tonight called the game and when they made a mistake they didn't take the griping personally and let it effect future calls. If they felt there may have been a mistake the makeup call came.

Leon got two offensive charges in the first half and then they give one to Atlanta by calling blocking on Pierce. The Hawks get two 3 second violations, one very bad, in the second half then Posey gets the call. There was a ton of contact on the boards and very few over the back calls, if any, I can't remember. That was in the Celts favor because they were the aggressor on the boards tonight.

No referee team is going to get every call right but I don't see all the griping about this group. When things got physical they calmed them down. We got a sweet call on that KG flagrant and I think that may have been a bit of a makeup for the early T on KG.

Nick .. you know I love ya, but I'm not even in the same universe with you on this one. I have always really liked Dick Bavetta, I think he's one of the best, most objective refs that's ever called the game. That said, tonight was one of the absolute worst officiated, most unbalanced games I have ever seen! It was a complete travesty, and these guys should have to answer to a higher power that has an objective view, and is not associated with the NBA in any way.

I always try my best to give these refs the benefit of the doubt, but when there is such an incredible discrepency ... when one guy on a team has been to the line more than the other team's players put together, there's something wrong. And this has not been limited to just tonight, the two games in Atlanta were so obviously biased that, if it weren't so frustrating, would be side-splittingly funny. The only reason Atlanta was in this game at any time, was because the refs had an obvious agenda.

I know that's a phrase that no one wants to go near, but how can you ignore it when it's so consistently obvious game after game? The absurd three-second calls, the ticky-tack fouls called on just one end, and how many times was Dick Bavetta ready to make a call in favor of the C's, then looked to another official, and called it for the Hawks? At least half a dozen times, when he, the head official, should have complete control of the game, he was deferring judgement to others? Sorry, but it shouldn't be happening.

I honestly can not believe how much "veteran" respect is given to this young, arrogant, overly-physical Atlanta team. You can't let teams "play" on one end of the floor, and be looking for every minor call at the other end. If you're gonna let the teams play, then let them PLAY, if you're going to call certain fouls, then call them consistently on BOTH ends of the floor! The descrepency tonight and in the two previous games is so blatantly skewed, that I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone can NOT see what's going on here.

There's always a crew here that jumps on these "anti-ref" posts, and they have a right to their opinions. But how can you bail them out, game after game, when it's so obvious that they favor certain teams over others? So, to those who say: "Stop blaming the refs!", I say: "Stop sticking up for them!" ... they're human, too ... they're fallible and imperfect, and they're subject to the same analysis and criticism as everyone is. They were awful tongiht, and the calls were highly unbalanced ... just look at the numbers, if you didn't see it by just watching the game.

If the calls had been fairly objective at both ends of the floor, the C's would have won by 40 points, and they should have. The only reason this was even a "game" at all, was because the officials were so intent on making it a "contest", and trying to extend the series to seven games, and we all know what THAT'S about, ($). Thank goodness the Celtics prevailed, and didn't let the refs tear their hearts out like they did on Monday. It's just a shame that the Celts have to beat eight people on the floor, instead of five .... that's never an easy thing to do. They overcame the odds tonight ... and the BAD guys lost ... all fifteen of them! Go Celtics!

[vinnie]

Just got home from the game and I have to agree with the last post.  I do not think I have ever seen a more one-sided officiated game in my life.  The refs did EVERYTHING they could to keep Atlanta in the game.  I believe the celtics outscored Atlanta by nearly 40 points on field goals, but the free throw difference was atrocious.  One thing I found interesting was that the Garden showed several of the questionable fouls calls on replay.  There were two blocks called on the C's that could not have been more clearly offensive fouls on the Hawks.  I scoffed at the conspiracy guys the other night, but I have to tell you I am scratching my head after watching the way this game was officiated.  My son and I are now 20-0 in games attended this year!

[Redz]

The strangest thing with the free throw discrepancy is that the actual fouls called total was pretty close. 

[vinnie]

Just crunching the numbers quick: Atlanta has a 153 to 104 advantage in free throws attempted for the series.  A 33% discrepancy

that is to be expected.  they are a team that attacks the hoop.  we are a jump shooting team.  that will happen all the time.

The Celtics went to the hoop several times tonight and never got a call.  Pierce was getting hit all night and got nothing.  The refereeing tonight was absurd.

[Bahku]

The strangest thing with the free throw discrepancy is that the actual fouls called total was pretty close. 

I think the total numbers evened up a bit in the fourth quarter, when the C's had put this away. There were at least six (frustration) fouls in the 4th by Atlanta, including two technicals. (Quite possibly the refs were trying to make this look a little less "blatant" than it was before it ended ... a bit of the ol' "covering tracks" thing).

[nickagneta]

Okay, I know I am in the vast minority and will have a bunch of my Green Clad Family telling me I'm kinda stupid but, I just didn't think the referees were bad tonight. Yes, there were bad calls but those bad calls went both ways and when the refs realized they made a bad call, the makeup call was called at the other end.

The difference between the game here and the games in Atlanta is that the refs in Atlanta injected themselves into the game and made sure they made a difference in the game. The refs tonight called the game and when they made a mistake they didn't take the griping personally and let it effect future calls. If they felt there may have been a mistake the makeup call came.

Leon got two offensive charges in the first half and then they give one to Atlanta by calling blocking on Pierce. The Hawks get two 3 second violations, one very bad, in the second half then Posey gets the call. There was a ton of contact on the boards and very few over the back calls, if any, I can't remember. That was in the Celts favor because they were the aggressor on the boards tonight.

No referee team is going to get every call right but I don't see all the griping about this group. When things got physical they calmed them down. We got a sweet call on that KG flagrant and I think that may have been a bit of a makeup for the early T on KG.

Nick .. you know I love ya, but I'm not even in the same universe with you on this one. I have always really liked Dick Bavetta, I think he's one of the best, most objective refs that's ever called the game. That said, tonight was one of the absolute worst officiated, most unbalanced games I have ever seen! It was a complete travesty, and these guys should have to answer to a higher power that has an objective view, and is not associated with the NBA in any way.

I always try my best to give these refs the benefit of the doubt, but when there is such an incredible discrepency ... when one guy on a team has been to the line more than the other team's players put together, there's something wrong. And this has not been limited to just tonight, the two games in Atlanta were so obviously biased that, if it weren't so frustrating, would be side-splittingly funny. The only reason Atlanta was in this game at any time, was because the refs had an obvious agenda.

I know that's a phrase that no one wants to go near, but how can you ignore it when it's so consistently obvious game after game? The absurd three-second calls, the ticky-tack fouls called on just one end, and how many times was Dick Bavetta ready to make a call in favor of the C's, then looked to another official, and called it for the Hawks? At least half a dozen times, when he, the head official, should have complete control of the game, he was deferring judgement to others? Sorry, but it shouldn't be happening.

I honestly can not believe how much "veteran" respect is given to this young, arrogant, overly-physical Atlanta team. You can't let teams "play" on one end of the floor, and be looking for every minor call at the other end. If you're gonna let the teams play, then let them PLAY, if you're going to call certain fouls, then call them consistently on BOTH ends of the floor! The descrepency tonight and in the two previous games is so blatantly skewed, that I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone can NOT see what's going on here.

There's always a crew here that jumps on these "anti-ref" posts, and they have a right to their opinions. But how can you bail them out, game after game, when it's so obvious that they favor certain teams over others? So, to those who say: "Stop blaming the refs!", I say: "Stop sticking up for them!" ... they're human, too ... they're fallible and imperfect, and they're subject to the same analysis and criticism as everyone is. They were awful tongiht, and the calls were highly unbalanced ... just look at the numbers, if you didn't see it by just watching the game.

If the calls had been fairly objective at both ends of the floor, the C's would have won by 40 points, and they should have. The only reason this was even a "game" at all, was because the officials were so intent on making it a "contest", and trying to extend the series to seven games, and we all know what THAT'S about, ($). Thank goodness the Celtics prevailed, and didn't let the refs tear their hearts out like they did on Monday. It's just a shame that the Celts have to beat eight people on the floor, instead of five .... that's never an easy thing to do. They overcame the odds tonight ... and the BAD guys lost ... all fifteen of them! Go Celtics!

I agree that the previous games were rather hard to not see that the officiating was leaning one way and said as much on most of my threads about the games over the last few days. I also am not one of those "how can you criticize the refs" guys. I pretty much hate every ref that doesn't give the call to a Green Team member.

I said the officials weren't that "bad" tonight. I never said they were good. But they were nowhere near as lopsidedly favorable to the Hawks tonight as the crews in Atlanta were.

During the skirmishes and hard fouls I think they got it right and quelled things down fast. They were agressive and authoratative about making sure the crap wasn't going to start. i.e calling that sneaker stealing foul on Rondo. Most nights the ref looks up, sees Atlanta breaking and looks the other way because Atlanta looks to have a good chance to score. Tonight the foul is called to let guys know cheap fouls like that won't be tolerated.

KG's flagrant was hard. Playoff good and hard. Not flagrant, the gut went for the ball aggressively. But becaus the C's got T'ed up earlier for rough stuff the Celtics got the gift to send the message Atlanta's way.

There was little to no calling of over the back or fouls underneath going for a rebound. And believe me if you rewatch the game there will be about 5-8 times where you will wonder how a Celtic did not get a foul on the rebound.

Powe's two calls where he drew the charges were borderline. He was still moving and was given the benefit that he reached the spot first. But he was moving. If anything Pierce's charge call right after the two offensive calls against the Hawks was more an offensive foul than either of Powe's.

The second three second violation where Posey was knocked to the florr was garbage, but the call went the other way next time down.

And yes the Hawks had more 33 more FTs over the last two days but the Celtics were called for only 5 more fouls than the Hawks. That is easily explained away by the fact that the Hawks aggressively attack the basket on offense whereas the Celts settle for a ton of outside jumpshots.

None. And I mean none of the officiating for any of the games so far this offseason has been very good. None of it. But tonight's game was called tremendously more impartial and appropriately than the last two and I just don't think, especially if you have been watching games besides just the Celtics, that tonight's game was comparatively more or less worse than most of the okay called games that have happened this offseason.

I just don't see how the complaints could be so loud for tonight's game as compared to the travesties that occured in Atlanta. I think they let the boys play, called the obvious stuff, took charge whne they had to, and in no way shape or form had any effect on the outcome.

That could not be said for the games in Atlanta and for that we should be happy.

Oh, TP I love you too. But let's stop being so public about it. LOL.

[mstheme]

don't they do them in the post season??

[BASSTHUMPER]

one mo to go....

[CelticBalla32]

Hell of a bounce-back performance. You guys can check out my late game recap at this link.

[Bahku]

Okay, I know I am in the vast minority and will have a bunch of my Green Clad Family telling me I'm kinda stupid but, I just didn't think the referees were bad tonight. Yes, there were bad calls but those bad calls went both ways and when the refs realized they made a bad call, the makeup call was called at the other end.

The difference between the game here and the games in Atlanta is that the refs in Atlanta injected themselves into the game and made sure they made a difference in the game. The refs tonight called the game and when they made a mistake they didn't take the griping personally and let it effect future calls. If they felt there may have been a mistake the makeup call came.

Leon got two offensive charges in the first half and then they give one to Atlanta by calling blocking on Pierce. The Hawks get two 3 second violations, one very bad, in the second half then Posey gets the call. There was a ton of contact on the boards and very few over the back calls, if any, I can't remember. That was in the Celts favor because they were the aggressor on the boards tonight.

No referee team is going to get every call right but I don't see all the griping about this group. When things got physical they calmed them down. We got a sweet call on that KG flagrant and I think that may have been a bit of a makeup for the early T on KG.

Nick .. you know I love ya, but I'm not even in the same universe with you on this one. I have always really liked Dick Bavetta, I think he's one of the best, most objective refs that's ever called the game. That said, tonight was one of the absolute worst officiated, most unbalanced games I have ever seen! It was a complete travesty, and these guys should have to answer to a higher power that has an objective view, and is not associated with the NBA in any way.

I always try my best to give these refs the benefit of the doubt, but when there is such an incredible discrepency ... when one guy on a team has been to the line more than the other team's players put together, there's something wrong. And this has not been limited to just tonight, the two games in Atlanta were so obviously biased that, if it weren't so frustrating, would be side-splittingly funny. The only reason Atlanta was in this game at any time, was because the refs had an obvious agenda.

I know that's a phrase that no one wants to go near, but how can you ignore it when it's so consistently obvious game after game? The absurd three-second calls, the ticky-tack fouls called on just one end, and how many times was Dick Bavetta ready to make a call in favor of the C's, then looked to another official, and called it for the Hawks? At least half a dozen times, when he, the head official, should have complete control of the game, he was deferring judgement to others? Sorry, but it shouldn't be happening.

I honestly can not believe how much "veteran" respect is given to this young, arrogant, overly-physical Atlanta team. You can't let teams "play" on one end of the floor, and be looking for every minor call at the other end. If you're gonna let the teams play, then let them PLAY, if you're going to call certain fouls, then call them consistently on BOTH ends of the floor! The descrepency tonight and in the two previous games is so blatantly skewed, that I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone can NOT see what's going on here.

There's always a crew here that jumps on these "anti-ref" posts, and they have a right to their opinions. But how can you bail them out, game after game, when it's so obvious that they favor certain teams over others? So, to those who say: "Stop blaming the refs!", I say: "Stop sticking up for them!" ... they're human, too ... they're fallible and imperfect, and they're subject to the same analysis and criticism as everyone is. They were awful tongiht, and the calls were highly unbalanced ... just look at the numbers, if you didn't see it by just watching the game.

If the calls had been fairly objective at both ends of the floor, the C's would have won by 40 points, and they should have. The only reason this was even a "game" at all, was because the officials were so intent on making it a "contest", and trying to extend the series to seven games, and we all know what THAT'S about, ($). Thank goodness the Celtics prevailed, and didn't let the refs tear their hearts out like they did on Monday. It's just a shame that the Celts have to beat eight people on the floor, instead of five .... that's never an easy thing to do. They overcame the odds tonight ... and the BAD guys lost ... all fifteen of them! Go Celtics!

I agree that the previous games were rather hard to not see that the officiating was leaning one way and said as much on most of my threads about the games over the last few days. I also am not one of those "how can you criticize the refs" guys. I pretty much hate every ref that doesn't give the call to a Green Team member.

I said the officials weren't that "bad" tonight. I never said they were good. But they were nowhere near as lopsidedly favorable to the Hawks tonight as the crews in Atlanta were.

During the skirmishes and hard fouls I think they got it right and quelled things down fast. They were agressive and authoratative about making sure the crap wasn't going to start. i.e calling that sneaker stealing foul on Rondo. Most nights the ref looks up, sees Atlanta breaking and looks the other way because Atlanta looks to have a good chance to score. Tonight the foul is called to let guys know cheap fouls like that won't be tolerated.

KG's flagrant was hard. Playoff good and hard. Not flagrant, the gut went for the ball aggressively. But becaus the C's got T'ed up earlier for rough stuff the Celtics got the gift to send the message Atlanta's way.

There was little to no calling of over the back or fouls underneath going for a rebound. And believe me if you rewatch the game there will be about 5-8 times where you will wonder how a Celtic did not get a foul on the rebound.

Powe's two calls where he drew the charges were borderline. He was still moving and was given the benefit that he reached the spot first. But he was moving. If anything Pierce's charge call right after the two offensive calls against the Hawks was more an offensive foul than either of Powe's.

The second three second violation where Posey was knocked to the florr was garbage, but the call went the other way next time down.

And yes the Hawks had more 33 more FTs over the last two days but the Celtics were called for only 5 more fouls than the Hawks. That is easily explained away by the fact that the Hawks aggressively attack the basket on offense whereas the Celts settle for a ton of outside jumpshots.

None. And I mean none of the officiating for any of the games so far this offseason has been very good. None of it. But tonight's game was called tremendously more impartial and appropriately than the last two and I just don't think, especially if you have been watching games besides just the Celtics, that tonight's game was comparatively more or less worse than most of the okay called games that have happened this offseason.

I just don't see how the complaints could be so loud for tonight's game as compared to the travesties that occured in Atlanta. I think they let the boys play, called the obvious stuff, took charge whne they had to, and in no way shape or form had any effect on the outcome.

That could not be said for the games in Atlanta and for that we should be happy.

Oh, TP I love you too. But let's stop being so public about it. LOL.

I hear ya Nick ... and good points. (TP) It may be that as the games get more intense and more important with each one, that I magnify what I see, and lump it onto the previous travesties ... I don't think so, but it's certainly possible. That said, at least six of the Hawks' fouls were in the 4th, when the game was pretty much won, and that evened the total up a bit.

What you said about the refs keeping this one out of the "confrontational" realm is also correct ... they jumped on the chippiness at the git, and Dick Bavetta is the best at that ... truly a guy I respect, (most of the time). Many of the calls could have gone either way, and that's pretty much the norm ... it's a subjective thing. But that's also where the problem lies for me, because it's the balance of where those questionable calls go that makes the difference, and it has been clearly in the Hawks favor, at least in the last three games.

I think when these officials, who are not so objective when it comes to the welfare of the NBA, (and don't need to be), go into a game or series with the assumption that a first-place team is going to dominate a clearly over-matched eighth-place team, that the majority of those "questionable" calls are going to be weighed in favor of the under-dog, whether it's a conscious thing on their part or not. That in itself gives them the propensity to automatically bring that to the fore-front when making other calls, and the whole thing snowballs.

Hate to go back to Darwin, but when a ref has been giving that benefit of the doubt to one team, and keeps blowing that whislte one way, then, just like the dog drooling every time he hears the bell, because he's used to connecting one reaction with the other action, then when those questionable calls come up, it just makes sense that the official is going to first think in the way he's thought all night: in favor of the under-dog. It's a job that requires that kind of fast decision, and I think that subconscious groove just takes them there first.

Anyway ... it's a fun subject to discuss, and while our doing so never brings about any change, it is at the very least a bit therapeutic for me. Whether their decisions are skewed or not, I guess we can all agree that they're far from perfect, and they'll be providing us some great fodder for discourse for a long time to come. There will always be officials as long as the game goes on, and there will always be plenty like us, willing to analyze and criticize, and make them an excuse for us feeling better about our team. That can't be all bad ... and it's the least they can allow us!

Thanks for another great discussion, Nick ... always get so much out of our discourse, and I always learn something from them, as well as view them from a little different perspective. Awesome.

[nickagneta]

Okay, I know I am in the vast minority and will have a bunch of my Green Clad Family telling me I'm kinda stupid but, I just didn't think the referees were bad tonight. Yes, there were bad calls but those bad calls went both ways and when the refs realized they made a bad call, the makeup call was called at the other end.

The difference between the game here and the games in Atlanta is that the refs in Atlanta injected themselves into the game and made sure they made a difference in the game. The refs tonight called the game and when they made a mistake they didn't take the griping personally and let it effect future calls. If they felt there may have been a mistake the makeup call came.

Leon got two offensive charges in the first half and then they give one to Atlanta by calling blocking on Pierce. The Hawks get two 3 second violations, one very bad, in the second half then Posey gets the call. There was a ton of contact on the boards and very few over the back calls, if any, I can't remember. That was in the Celts favor because they were the aggressor on the boards tonight.

No referee team is going to get every call right but I don't see all the griping about this group. When things got physical they calmed them down. We got a sweet call on that KG flagrant and I think that may have been a bit of a makeup for the early T on KG.

Nick .. you know I love ya, but I'm not even in the same universe with you on this one. I have always really liked Dick Bavetta, I think he's one of the best, most objective refs that's ever called the game. That said, tonight was one of the absolute worst officiated, most unbalanced games I have ever seen! It was a complete travesty, and these guys should have to answer to a higher power that has an objective view, and is not associated with the NBA in any way.

I always try my best to give these refs the benefit of the doubt, but when there is such an incredible discrepency ... when one guy on a team has been to the line more than the other team's players put together, there's something wrong. And this has not been limited to just tonight, the two games in Atlanta were so obviously biased that, if it weren't so frustrating, would be side-splittingly funny. The only reason Atlanta was in this game at any time, was because the refs had an obvious agenda.

I know that's a phrase that no one wants to go near, but how can you ignore it when it's so consistently obvious game after game? The absurd three-second calls, the ticky-tack fouls called on just one end, and how many times was Dick Bavetta ready to make a call in favor of the C's, then looked to another official, and called it for the Hawks? At least half a dozen times, when he, the head official, should have complete control of the game, he was deferring judgement to others? Sorry, but it shouldn't be happening.

I honestly can not believe how much "veteran" respect is given to this young, arrogant, overly-physical Atlanta team. You can't let teams "play" on one end of the floor, and be looking for every minor call at the other end. If you're gonna let the teams play, then let them PLAY, if you're going to call certain fouls, then call them consistently on BOTH ends of the floor! The descrepency tonight and in the two previous games is so blatantly skewed, that I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone can NOT see what's going on here.

There's always a crew here that jumps on these "anti-ref" posts, and they have a right to their opinions. But how can you bail them out, game after game, when it's so obvious that they favor certain teams over others? So, to those who say: "Stop blaming the refs!", I say: "Stop sticking up for them!" ... they're human, too ... they're fallible and imperfect, and they're subject to the same analysis and criticism as everyone is. They were awful tongiht, and the calls were highly unbalanced ... just look at the numbers, if you didn't see it by just watching the game.

If the calls had been fairly objective at both ends of the floor, the C's would have won by 40 points, and they should have. The only reason this was even a "game" at all, was because the officials were so intent on making it a "contest", and trying to extend the series to seven games, and we all know what THAT'S about, ($). Thank goodness the Celtics prevailed, and didn't let the refs tear their hearts out like they did on Monday. It's just a shame that the Celts have to beat eight people on the floor, instead of five .... that's never an easy thing to do. They overcame the odds tonight ... and the BAD guys lost ... all fifteen of them! Go Celtics!

I agree that the previous games were rather hard to not see that the officiating was leaning one way and said as much on most of my threads about the games over the last few days. I also am not one of those "how can you criticize the refs" guys. I pretty much hate every ref that doesn't give the call to a Green Team member.

I said the officials weren't that "bad" tonight. I never said they were good. But they were nowhere near as lopsidedly favorable to the Hawks tonight as the crews in Atlanta were.

During the skirmishes and hard fouls I think they got it right and quelled things down fast. They were agressive and authoratative about making sure the crap wasn't going to start. i.e calling that sneaker stealing foul on Rondo. Most nights the ref looks up, sees Atlanta breaking and looks the other way because Atlanta looks to have a good chance to score. Tonight the foul is called to let guys know cheap fouls like that won't be tolerated.

KG's flagrant was hard. Playoff good and hard. Not flagrant, the gut went for the ball aggressively. But becaus the C's got T'ed up earlier for rough stuff the Celtics got the gift to send the message Atlanta's way.

There was little to no calling of over the back or fouls underneath going for a rebound. And believe me if you rewatch the game there will be about 5-8 times where you will wonder how a Celtic did not get a foul on the rebound.

Powe's two calls where he drew the charges were borderline. He was still moving and was given the benefit that he reached the spot first. But he was moving. If anything Pierce's charge call right after the two offensive calls against the Hawks was more an offensive foul than either of Powe's.

The second three second violation where Posey was knocked to the florr was garbage, but the call went the other way next time down.

And yes the Hawks had more 33 more FTs over the last two days but the Celtics were called for only 5 more fouls than the Hawks. That is easily explained away by the fact that the Hawks aggressively attack the basket on offense whereas the Celts settle for a ton of outside jumpshots.

None. And I mean none of the officiating for any of the games so far this offseason has been very good. None of it. But tonight's game was called tremendously more impartial and appropriately than the last two and I just don't think, especially if you have been watching games besides just the Celtics, that tonight's game was comparatively more or less worse than most of the okay called games that have happened this offseason.

I just don't see how the complaints could be so loud for tonight's game as compared to the travesties that occured in Atlanta. I think they let the boys play, called the obvious stuff, took charge whne they had to, and in no way shape or form had any effect on the outcome.

That could not be said for the games in Atlanta and for that we should be happy.

Oh, TP I love you too. But let's stop being so public about it. LOL.

I hear ya Nick ... and good points. (TP) It may be that as the games get more intense and more important with each one, that I magnify what I see, and lump it onto the previous travesties ... I don't think so, but it's certainly possible. That said, at least six of the Hawks' fouls were in the 4th, when the game was pretty much won, and that evened the total up a bit.

What you said about the refs keeping this one out of the "confrontational" realm is also correct ... they jumped on the chippiness at the git, and Dick Bavetta is the best at that ... truly a guy I respect, (most of the time). Many of the calls could have gone either way, and that's pretty much the norm ... it's a subjective thing. But that's also where the problem lies for me, because it's the balance of where those questionable calls go that makes the difference, and it has been clearly in the Hawks favor, at least in the last three games.

I think when these officials, who are not so objective when it comes to the welfare of the NBA, (and don't need to be), go into a game or series with the assumption that a first-place team is going to dominate a clearly over-matched eighth-place team, that the majority of those "questionable" calls are going to be weighed in favor of the under-dog, whether it's a conscious thing on their part or not. That in itself gives them the propensity to automatically bring that to the fore-front when making other calls, and the whole thing snowballs.

Hate to go back to Darwin, but when a ref has been giving that benefit of the doubt to one team, and keeps blowing that whislte one way, then, just like the dog drooling every time he hears the bell, because he's used to connecting one reaction with the other action, then when those questionable calls come up, it just makes sense that the official is going to first think in the way he's thought all night: in favor of the under-dog. It's a job that requires that kind of fast decision, and I think that subconscious groove just takes them there first.

Anyway ... it's a fun subject to discuss, and while our doing so never brings about any change, it is at the very least a bit therapeutic for me. Whether their decisions are skewed or not, I guess we can all agree that they're far from perfect, and they'll be providing us some great fodder for discourse for a long time to come. There will always be officials as long as the game goes on, and there will always be plenty like us, willing to analyze and criticize, and make them an excuse for us feeling better about our team. That can't be all bad ... and it's the least they can allow us!

Thanks for another great discussion, Nick ... always get so much out of our discourse, and I always learn something from them, as well as view them from a little different perspective. Awesome.

Dude, you are the only guy I know who could turn poor refereeing into a discussion on Darwinism and Pavlovian dogs. I was waiting for the Einsteinium quantum physics and Freudian pschological ends of the discussion to enter into the fray. LOL.

I see your points and you are right. If I can assume that refs will call make up calls to show impartiality then those same men and women can, whether they know it or not, have predetermined, unconscience opinions that would unknowingly effect the impartiality to begin with.

All in all, I think, as usual, we're both a little right and both a little wrong. Somehow, life finds it's way down the middle, as always.

[Bahku]

Dude, you are the only guy I know who could turn poor refereeing into a discussion on Darwinism and Pavlovian dogs. I was waiting for the Einsteinium quantum physics and Freudian pschological ends of the discussion to enter into the fray. LOL.

I see your points and you are right. If I can assume that refs will call make up calls to show impartiality then those same men and women can, whether they know it or not, have predetermined, unconscience opinions that would unknowingly effect the impartiality to begin with.

All in all, I think, as usual, we're both a little right and both a little wrong. Somehow, life finds it's way down the middle, as always.

LOL! I'll take that as a compliment coming from you, Nick! You summed it up quite effectively, and I'll concede to meet at least halfway. Always a pleasure to exhcange banter with you, Nick ... and I always come away from it with a little wider view of the subject. Great discussion, and a good example of what objective discourse is all about! TP

[hwangjini_1]

whoa!! nice 3 from bradley!