Time for a change?

[Roy H.]

Brown was the best player on a 56 win team.  Johnson on a 46 win team.  If the objective is to win a title in the next 2-3 season, I will take Brown.

that would be the wrong decision, which is why Atlanta would never make that trade.  Johnson would give Boston a much better shot at winning a title.  He would be perfect next to Tatum.

Why do you think Jalen Johnson is a better fit for Tatum?

Tatum has taken on that point-forward role himself. Tatum defends and rebounds the PF position at a well above average to high level. I don't see that Tatum needs the skill-set JJ provides.

That's my question, too.  What makes Brown a bad fit, but Johnson "perfect".

[Who]

Brown was the best player on a 56 win team.  Johnson on a 46 win team.  If the objective is to win a title in the next 2-3 season, I will take Brown.

that would be the wrong decision, which is why Atlanta would never make that trade.  Johnson would give Boston a much better shot at winning a title.  He would be perfect next to Tatum.

I have mixed feelings on Johnson (and a guy like Giddey). When I look at his stats, they are impressive. When I watch him play, I'm not impressed. He drifts through games often and doesn't leave an impact.

He reminds me a lot of Lamar Odom or Jeff Green or Tobias Harris. You always feel like he could be better, but he never quite reaches the level you think he's capable of.

I have a similar feeling with Jalen Johnson ... but I would also say that he has raised his levels each year for the past 3 seasons and pushed the bar higher for what can be expected of him night to night.

I feel the main reason for this is JJ is does not have a consistent go-to scoring repertoire yet. He is reliant on dribble drives and finishing at the basket. If you can reduce that / limit that, his scoring impact is muted. And while he is a good defender, he is not a great defender.

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I like the Josh Giddey comparison. Similar players in that they are both mainly connectivity players. Guys who enable others with their ball-handling, passing and possession creation (rebounding). Unlike Giddey, JJ can defend his position. Unlike Giddey, JJ has above average athleticism for beating his man one-on-one and shows more long term creation potential. But there are a lot of similarities there.

I can see some of Lamar Odom there as well. Particularly the Miami-era Lamar Odom when he was the main man and averaging 17-20ppg and 4-6apg. Never had the complete mindset as a scorer / go-to-guy though. Similar as JJ today. Then Odom struggled to maintain his scoring volume when he took over a #2 role next to Kobe (prior to Pau Gasol) because Odom couldn't hit jump-shots frequently enough. JJ's jump-shot shows more potential. Not just potential but more current ability. He could transition to a #2 and still put up big numbers unlike Odom.

[Who]

Jalen Johnson showed his limitations as scorer in the playoffs for Atlanta. He got 19.5ppg but it was on 43.5% FG 29% 3PT 55.1% TS. He couldn't reliably generate offense for himself.

And with JJ unable to do that, ATL had no go-to player. No player to base their offensive sets around. No player to stem the bleeding when things were going badly. CJ McCollum ended up being their go-to player in the series as a result.

[Goldstar88]

Giannis is 31.  Sure, he has some miles on him and there is some durability risk, but he put up 28 / 10 / 5 last season on a struggling team where he was supposedly hampered by injury.  He is also 6'-11" and would address the team biggest weakness.

Loosing Brown would mean giving up some wing scoring and wing defense.  Brown is a top player in the game but I view Giannis as better and better at a position that adds more overall value.

Not if he?s hurt he doesn?t. Mark it now. He will tear his Achilles next year where ever he is. All those miles and a calf injury? Hard pass

No doubt we?ll be crossing our fingers for as long as he?s here but I also can?t see another way to compete with the Western Conference champs over the next few years.  It?s an extreme risk reward situation. If the bottom line is #19 my guess is it doesn?t play out well, but again, what gives them a better chance?

I don?t know what does. Make a proposal. I don?t know what else is on the table. But i dont like this idea at all. I?m not doing it.

Giannis gives the Celtics the best chance to win. Thinking that they shouldn?t make a move because a player had a calf strain is silly. Hell, JB had a calf strain and Achilles tendentious towards the end of the season. You aren?t getting Jokic, Wemby, SGA, Doncic. Those are the guys that are on Giannis level. There is no better option.

[Moranis]

Brown was the best player on a 56 win team.  Johnson on a 46 win team.  If the objective is to win a title in the next 2-3 season, I will take Brown.

that would be the wrong decision, which is why Atlanta would never make that trade.  Johnson would give Boston a much better shot at winning a title.  He would be perfect next to Tatum.

Why do you think Jalen Johnson is a better fit for Tatum?

Tatum has taken on that point-forward role himself. Tatum defends and rebounds the PF position at a well above average to high level. I don't see that Tatum needs the skill-set JJ provides.

Johnson is not a lead scorer and doesn't play like one.  He plays well off the ball (we saw that with Young).  I think he is a much better secondary option and is a much more willing passer.  Brown has a lot of black hole type tendencies.  He is more efficient shooting than many of those type players, but Brown's poor passing, dribbling, and decision making aren't great as a secondary player.  I also think Johnson's size makes him a better fit.  The Celtics have more positional options and can hunt matchups a bit better with the bigger player. Johnson also doesn't take up of the dame space on the floor as Tatum.  Too many times Brown and Tatum play the your turn my turn type offense because they have the same skill set. Johnson does not.  There is a reason both Tatum and Brown play better when the other one isn't on the floor. They are too similar

[Moranis]

Jalen Johnson showed his limitations as scorer in the playoffs for Atlanta. He got 19.5ppg but it was on 43.5% FG 29% 3PT 55.1% TS. He couldn't reliably generate offense for himself.

And with JJ unable to do that, ATL had no go-to player. No player to base their offensive sets around. No player to stem the bleeding when things were going badly. CJ McCollum ended up being their go-to player in the series as a result.

He isn't a #1 (at least yet), and Atlanta doesn't have that player.  He is a secondary player. 

[Who]

Brown was the best player on a 56 win team.  Johnson on a 46 win team.  If the objective is to win a title in the next 2-3 season, I will take Brown.

that would be the wrong decision, which is why Atlanta would never make that trade.  Johnson would give Boston a much better shot at winning a title.  He would be perfect next to Tatum.

Why do you think Jalen Johnson is a better fit for Tatum?

Tatum has taken on that point-forward role himself. Tatum defends and rebounds the PF position at a well above average to high level. I don't see that Tatum needs the skill-set JJ provides.

Johnson is not a lead scorer and doesn't play like one.  He plays well off the ball (we saw that with Young).  I think he is a much better secondary option and is a much more willing passer.  Brown has a lot of black hole type tendencies.  He is more efficient shooting than many of those type players, but Brown's poor passing, dribbling, and decision making aren't great as a secondary player.  I also think Johnson's size makes him a better fit.  The Celtics have more positional options and can hunt matchups a bit better with the bigger player. Johnson also doesn't take up of the dame space on the floor as Tatum.  Too many times Brown and Tatum play the your turn my turn type offense because they have the same skill set. Johnson does not.  There is a reason both Tatum and Brown play better when the other one isn't on the floor. They are too similar

Scottie Pippen was not a consistent scorer. It was okay because Michael Jordan was on the team. He is among the best scorers in NBA history.

Tatum isn't MJ. He isn't that level of scorer.

Tatum needs a reliable 2nd option alongside him. I don't think Tatum can lead a team to a title without a consistent 2nd scorer behind him. I don't think a facilitator like JJ is a better fit because it would leave the team without that 2nd option.

[Moranis]

Brown was the best player on a 56 win team.  Johnson on a 46 win team.  If the objective is to win a title in the next 2-3 season, I will take Brown.

that would be the wrong decision, which is why Atlanta would never make that trade.  Johnson would give Boston a much better shot at winning a title.  He would be perfect next to Tatum.

Why do you think Jalen Johnson is a better fit for Tatum?

Tatum has taken on that point-forward role himself. Tatum defends and rebounds the PF position at a well above average to high level. I don't see that Tatum needs the skill-set JJ provides.

Johnson is not a lead scorer and doesn't play like one.  He plays well off the ball (we saw that with Young).  I think he is a much better secondary option and is a much more willing passer.  Brown has a lot of black hole type tendencies.  He is more efficient shooting than many of those type players, but Brown's poor passing, dribbling, and decision making aren't great as a secondary player.  I also think Johnson's size makes him a better fit.  The Celtics have more positional options and can hunt matchups a bit better with the bigger player. Johnson also doesn't take up of the dame space on the floor as Tatum.  Too many times Brown and Tatum play the your turn my turn type offense because they have the same skill set. Johnson does not.  There is a reason both Tatum and Brown play better when the other one isn't on the floor. They are too similar

Scottie Pippen was not a consistent scorer. It was okay because Michael Jordan was on the team. He is among the best scorers in NBA history.

Tatum isn't MJ. He isn't that level of scorer.

Tatum needs a reliable 2nd option alongside him. I don't think Tatum can lead a team to a title without a consistent 2nd scorer behind him. I don't think a facilitator like JJ is a better fit because it would leave the team without that 2nd option.

Obviously Tatum isn't MJ, but Tatum has averaged 30 ppg in the league.  While on a team with as you call a guy that is a better scorer than Pippen and in fact JB was 26.6 ppg that season.  The last couple of healthy Tatum seasons, Boston added much better 3rd, 4th, and 5th scoring options and Tatum's scoring dropped back to 27 or so ppg.  Given the shots, he'd easily be over 30 ppg again as we saw from JB going from 22 ppg to 29 ppg this year without Tatum.  30 ppg is plenty from a 1st option.  Add in Johnson in the 20-23 ppg range, with 6+ apg, and they'd be fine for 1st and 2nd options. 

I mean look at OKC this year.  SGA is 31 ppg, next on the team is 17 ppg.  Spurs, Wemby 25 ppg, Fox next on the team at under 19 ppg.  Cavs, Mitchell 28 ppg, Harden 20.5 ppg.  Knicks Brunson and Towns 26 and 20. 

I think part of the problem the Celtics have is they have 2 guys that like to be the 1st option, that have similar skill sets, and that don't compliment each other very well.  Neither one is a great passer.  neither one works all that well off the ball or in a secondary role.  They just don't fit very well.  They are immensely talented players and that is going to lead to a lot of wins because talent wins out over most everything, but their talent isn't the advantage it once was as they lose a step and get older.  They won't be able to out talent people as much.  They need to separate and go to places that will better utilize their skill sets.  Honestly, Johnson would be a great fit next to Brown, so it isn't just a remove Brown thing.  I have no idea what type of trade could be used with Tatum, but he at least is good enough for Atlanta to move Johnson (it would take more than Johnson for me to even consider that trade). 

[Goldstar88]

What if the Celtics were able to get Portis, too. If Boston adds in Garza the numbers seem to work.

Starters: White, Hauser, Tatum, Portis, Giannis

Bench: Pritchard, Scheierman, Harper Jr, Gonzalez, Walsh, Queta, Timelord(FA signing), Vet FA? (Beal, Bruce Brown, Trent Jr, T. Prince)

Portis is a very good shooter and he brings toughness. Career 48% from the field, 39% from 3pt.       
Bobby is 6?9/250lbs, so he can play minutes at Center as well. Feel like that would be a top team in the league.

[Neurotic Guy]

What if the Celtics were able to get Portis, too. If Boston adds in Garza the numbers seem to work.

Starters: White, Hauser, Tatum, Portis, Giannis

Bench: Pritchard, Scheierman, Harper Jr, Gonzalez, Walsh, Queta, Timelord(FA signing), Vet FA? (Beal, Bruce Brown, Trent Jr, T. Prince)

Portis is a very good shooter and he brings toughness. Career 48% from the field, 39% from 3pt.       
Bobby is 6?9/250lbs, so he can play minutes at Center as well. Feel like that would be a top team in the league.

What is Milwaukees plan in this scenario?  Doesn?t seem like it would be win now or rebuild.

[jambr380]

Portland makes a lot of sense to me as a 3rd team.

Milwaukee - Scoot, Yang, Grant (salary), 27, Hugo/Jordan, Bucks picks back from Blazers (so they can actually tank)
Boston - Giannis
Portland - Brown

Other minor pieces can be included.

Yeah, I mentioned it in another post, but I was in a Giannis/Brown NBA Reddit thread last week, and there were a number of Blazers fans all in on basically the idea you have above. I think many would also take Giannis, but know that is not really a possibility with Giannis reportedly wanting to stay East.

I think I would be hesitant to give up control of 3 years (28, 29, 30) of Bucks picks and a recent #2 pick in the draft for Jaylen, but it's hard to deny what a great fit Jaylen would be in Portland. They're young, they have Dame coming back, and they even have the Jrue connection. We've also made multiple deals with them in recent years.

[Goldstar88]

What if the Celtics were able to get Portis, too. If Boston adds in Garza the numbers seem to work.

Starters: White, Hauser, Tatum, Portis, Giannis

Bench: Pritchard, Scheierman, Harper Jr, Gonzalez, Walsh, Queta, Timelord(FA signing), Vet FA? (Beal, Bruce Brown, Trent Jr, T. Prince)

Portis is a very good shooter and he brings toughness. Career 48% from the field, 39% from 3pt.       
Bobby is 6?9/250lbs, so he can play minutes at Center as well. Feel like that would be a top team in the league.

What is Milwaukees plan in this scenario?  Doesn?t seem like it would be win now or rebuild.

If Milwaukee is trading Giannis, they are rebuilding. A 3rd team like Atlanta or Houston would need to be involved as they have young star players like Sengun and Jalen Johnson for the Bucks to build around. So JB and Garza for Giannis/Portis, Brown gets rerouted to Atlanta or Houston and Bucks get a young star player and several first round picks for their rebuild.

[No Nickname]

When is it most-likely that a Giannis trade will happen?  The owner said before the draft.

But possibly they get the components of a trade set up and wait until the draft so that teams that are part of it can possibly take advantage of a draft-and-trade scenario with their own picks (that might be traded) to avoid the Stepien rule?

And also to see if anyone drops unexpectedly into a team's lap where they decide NOT to do the trade?

[No Nickname]

Looking at ESPN's recent article on free agents, if there was some way to sign and/or trade for both Porzingis and Anfernee Simons (the article says basically no one is getting over 15MM except for restricted free agents) would we be happy with that?

In 10 games this past March Porzingis averaged 24mpg, 18.2ppg, 4.9rpg, 2.7apg, 1.3bpg. So what if he's figured out a way to manage his illness?

I'd take that from a starter, and plug Queta in to the remaining 24mpg. 

As for Simons, we did really well with a no-conscience shooter who was a walking bucket at times.  Tatum/Brown need that kind of player on the floor late in games.

If he really can't get anything more than the MLE, would he consider coming back to the C's? 

[Who]

Looking at ESPN's recent article on free agents, if there was some way to sign and/or trade for both Porzingis and Anfernee Simons (the article says basically no one is getting over 15MM except for restricted free agents) would we be happy with that?

In 10 games this past March Porzingis averaged 24mpg, 18.2ppg, 4.9rpg, 2.7apg, 1.3bpg. So what if he's figured out a way to manage his illness?

I'd take that from a starter, and plug Queta in to the remaining 24mpg. 

As for Simons, we did really well with a no-conscience shooter who was a walking bucket at times.  Tatum/Brown need that kind of player on the floor late in games.

If he really can't get anything more than the MLE, would he consider coming back to the C's?

I would be happy with that.

We need a 3rd guard behind Pritchard & D White. Simons did well in the role. I'd be happy to have him back.

Porzingis I'd be nervous about but willing to take the risk. It looks like he is progressing. Still not dependable ... but improving. He looked most of the time when he played for GSW late last season. Missed a lot of games though.

I'd also be happy with a lesser center who will just defend & rebound like D Gafford instead of Porzingis. I'd see that as a very good summer for the Celtics. Gafford & A Simons.

G: Pritchard, A Simons
G: D White, Baylor
F: Jaylen, Hugo
F: Tatum, J Walsh
C: Queta, Porzingis / Gafford