Time for a change?

[Moranis]

I think some sort of change is needed because what is the alternative, have a good regular season and then lose in the 1st or 2nd round again.  How does the team get past that point keeping the core 3 together?

[Who]

2. Sign Timelord to the full MLE

I think Timelord is closer to a minimum contract guy than an MLE guy. He would be worth the MLE if he reliably stay healthy but he can't. I can't see anyone offering him that much money with his injury record.

Maybe the taxpayers MLE. Around $6mil per year. Around half of the full MLE. Just under half. That seems like Timelord's price range.

[ozgod]

I think some sort of change is needed because what is the alternative, have a good regular season and then lose in the 1st or 2nd round again.  How does the team get past that point keeping the core 3 together?

I think there will definitely be some changes...what we don't know is the scale of the change. Breaking up a combination that helped win a championship in 2024 and has been together for 9 years would qualify as a big change. Making changes around the margins, to strengthen our post options or point of attack defense would be a smaller change, but still a change. I don't know Brad's mind, but I'm guessing he's thinking more on the latter - unless the reports of JB being unhappy are true, in which case it would make sense to move on from that Jays partnership because it's better for both parties to try something new. Bigger changes are always riskier, and you generally do them as a last option or if you want to reset everything.

And it's worth remembering we just made a big change last season - we moved on from KP, Al, Kornet and Holiday. That's a pretty significant change if you think about it.

[ozgod]

I've seen people propose Jaylen + more for Giannis on social media, but I'd still like to know what other teams are offering. I'm assuming the Spurs and Rockets won't go after him. Maybe the Knicks do if they don't reach the Finals, idk. But otherwise, is the best offer out there from Miami basically with Ware, Herro and picks?

I'd say the Knicks and Blazers are the best bets, and they could outbid us OR force the C's to send Jaylen Brown back. But otherwise, if there isn't a bidding war, I think you could get it done without Jaylen. We've seen disgruntled superstar players go for a lot less than expected and Giannis' age + injury history might add some intrigue. But I also think Giannis himself is done at MIL

Giannis's time in Milwaukee is over after all that locker room drama stirred by Doc Rivers and management.

But wow, Miami's package of Ware, Herro, and picks? Sounds meh lol. Give 'em Jaylen Brown straight up. Or, tell them to also throw in Myles Turner and the C's can throw in a couple more.

And why would we want Myles Turner? He?s getting paid $27m to do sweet FA. One of the worst contracts in the league. I?m sure.The only image people we can trade for him would be Hauser and another $17m of contracts when most of our remaining contracts are $2.7m vet mins. We would lose half our roster on a player who is even worse than Vucevic.

Turner is uninspiring, but we can actually just absorb him into our Simons TPE without sending back anything. It'd put us well into the tax, but it might serve as an incentive to make MIL choose our deal over the many others that will be out there. Turner does also fill a need, can defend the rim, and shoot 3s, so it's not a useless trade from our side.

We definitely should not be giving up anything to get him, though, In fact, it should lower the price drastically, meaning we send out no picks in a Jaylen deal.

That's the contraint I was working with. I really think that Brad will do everything possible to stay under the tax this season, because we're going to be well over it in 2027-28 just signing extensions for existing players. What will be interesting is to see if he just lets the Simons TPE expire or if they do something similar to the Simons-Vuc trade where they used the KP TPE to bring back Vuc and created the Simons TPE, so we have a TPE in 2027 when we are going to have a huge spending window coming.

So if the price to get Giannis would be taking on Turner's crappy contract, using the TPE, they might pull the trigger, with the expectation of shipping out surplus salary later on to get under the tax. I haven't looked to see how they could possibly do that though, because Turner is on $27m and I don't think we have the mix of salaries on our end to send out later on make that up.

[jambr380]

I've seen people propose Jaylen + more for Giannis on social media, but I'd still like to know what other teams are offering. I'm assuming the Spurs and Rockets won't go after him. Maybe the Knicks do if they don't reach the Finals, idk. But otherwise, is the best offer out there from Miami basically with Ware, Herro and picks?

I'd say the Knicks and Blazers are the best bets, and they could outbid us OR force the C's to send Jaylen Brown back. But otherwise, if there isn't a bidding war, I think you could get it done without Jaylen. We've seen disgruntled superstar players go for a lot less than expected and Giannis' age + injury history might add some intrigue. But I also think Giannis himself is done at MIL

Giannis's time in Milwaukee is over after all that locker room drama stirred by Doc Rivers and management.

But wow, Miami's package of Ware, Herro, and picks? Sounds meh lol. Give 'em Jaylen Brown straight up. Or, tell them to also throw in Myles Turner and the C's can throw in a couple more.

And why would we want Myles Turner? He?s getting paid $27m to do sweet FA. One of the worst contracts in the league. I?m sure.The only image people we can trade for him would be Hauser and another $17m of contracts when most of our remaining contracts are $2.7m vet mins. We would lose half our roster on a player who is even worse than Vucevic.

Turner is uninspiring, but we can actually just absorb him into our Simons TPE without sending back anything. It'd put us well into the tax, but it might serve as an incentive to make MIL choose our deal over the many others that will be out there. Turner does also fill a need, can defend the rim, and shoot 3s, so it's not a useless trade from our side.

We definitely should not be giving up anything to get him, though, In fact, it should lower the price drastically, meaning we send out no picks in a Jaylen deal.

That's the contraint I was working with. I really think that Brad will do everything possible to stay under the tax this season, because we're going to be well over it in 2027-28 just signing extensions for existing players. What will be interesting is to see if he just lets the Simons TPE expire or if they do something similar to the Simons-Vuc trade where they used the KP TPE to bring back Vuc and created the Simons TPE, so we have a TPE in 2027 when we are going to have a huge spending window coming.

So if the price to get Giannis would be taking on Turner's crappy contract, using the TPE, they might pull the trigger, with the expectation of shipping out surplus salary later on to get under the tax. I haven't looked to see how they could possibly do that though, because Turner is on $27m and I don't think we have the mix of salaries on our end to send out later on make that up.

If you send out Hauser into cap space and then trade off a couple of minimum contracts at the deadline, you can probably get there. We only have just over $13M in cap space as it stands, but it is more like $20M if Brad wants to get creative again at the deadline like he did this year.

We wouldn't be using the MLE in this case, but I'm just looking at options to get Giannis here and this one seemingly gives us a pretty big edge compared to offers from other teams. I wouldn't say it's my preference, though. Hauser and a legit MLE big gives us more flexibility and depth moving forward.

[Celtics4ever]

Adding people at the deadline, does not always work out.  Vooch, never meshed here as a deadline addition.

[Moranis]

I think some sort of change is needed because what is the alternative, have a good regular season and then lose in the 1st or 2nd round again.  How does the team get past that point keeping the core 3 together?

I think there will definitely be some changes...what we don't know is the scale of the change. Breaking up a combination that helped win a championship in 2024 and has been together for 9 years would qualify as a big change. Making changes around the margins, to strengthen our post options or point of attack defense would be a smaller change, but still a change. I don't know Brad's mind, but I'm guessing he's thinking more on the latter - unless the reports of JB being unhappy are true, in which case it would make sense to move on from that Jays partnership because it's better for both parties to try something new. Bigger changes are always riskier, and you generally do them as a last option or if you want to reset everything.

And it's worth remembering we just made a big change last season - we moved on from KP, Al, Kornet and Holiday. That's a pretty significant change if you think about it.

the changes last year were done for salary purposes and made the team worse.  The 2024 team was already broken up and the end result is a worse team.  A few minor changes on the edge of the roster is only going to yield similar post season results.   Boston simply isn't good enough to win a championship without major changes.   The team has proven that the last 2 playoffs.  We can add on the fringes and next year will be having the same conversation (maybe after the 2nd round instead of 1st). I simply don't see a path forward to true contention mostly holding firm. Boston just isn't good enough.

[Goldstar88]

2. Sign Timelord to the full MLE

I think Timelord is closer to a minimum contract guy than an MLE guy. He would be worth the MLE if he reliably stay healthy but he can't. I can't see anyone offering him that much money with his injury record.

Maybe the taxpayers MLE. Around $6mil per year. Around half of the full MLE. Just under half. That seems like Timelord's price range.

I?d love to get Rob back. I know he?s an injury risk, but TL looked really good in the playoffs for Portland.

[celticinorlando]

1. I think if the Cs want Giannis they can get him easier than any other team. The Heat's offer of Herro and a bunch of spare parts is not going to move the needle. They might have a higher pick in this year's draft but the bucks want an established guy back. Brown trumps pretty much anyone out there.

2. If JB is not traded then you have to give him the extension that locks him in for 5 more years and the yearly salary jumps to $70 mill. Going to have to do that soon with JT also. Not sure I want JB on the books for 5 more years north of $60 mill a year.

3. Brad sounded like a guy that knows his team is not good enough and fringe tweaks will not get it done.

IF this happens it is going to be sooner than later (before the draft).

[ozgod]

I've seen people propose Jaylen + more for Giannis on social media, but I'd still like to know what other teams are offering. I'm assuming the Spurs and Rockets won't go after him. Maybe the Knicks do if they don't reach the Finals, idk. But otherwise, is the best offer out there from Miami basically with Ware, Herro and picks?

I'd say the Knicks and Blazers are the best bets, and they could outbid us OR force the C's to send Jaylen Brown back. But otherwise, if there isn't a bidding war, I think you could get it done without Jaylen. We've seen disgruntled superstar players go for a lot less than expected and Giannis' age + injury history might add some intrigue. But I also think Giannis himself is done at MIL

Giannis's time in Milwaukee is over after all that locker room drama stirred by Doc Rivers and management.

But wow, Miami's package of Ware, Herro, and picks? Sounds meh lol. Give 'em Jaylen Brown straight up. Or, tell them to also throw in Myles Turner and the C's can throw in a couple more.

And why would we want Myles Turner? He?s getting paid $27m to do sweet FA. One of the worst contracts in the league. I?m sure.The only image people we can trade for him would be Hauser and another $17m of contracts when most of our remaining contracts are $2.7m vet mins. We would lose half our roster on a player who is even worse than Vucevic.

Turner is uninspiring, but we can actually just absorb him into our Simons TPE without sending back anything. It'd put us well into the tax, but it might serve as an incentive to make MIL choose our deal over the many others that will be out there. Turner does also fill a need, can defend the rim, and shoot 3s, so it's not a useless trade from our side.

We definitely should not be giving up anything to get him, though, In fact, it should lower the price drastically, meaning we send out no picks in a Jaylen deal.

That's the contraint I was working with. I really think that Brad will do everything possible to stay under the tax this season, because we're going to be well over it in 2027-28 just signing extensions for existing players. What will be interesting is to see if he just lets the Simons TPE expire or if they do something similar to the Simons-Vuc trade where they used the KP TPE to bring back Vuc and created the Simons TPE, so we have a TPE in 2027 when we are going to have a huge spending window coming.

So if the price to get Giannis would be taking on Turner's crappy contract, using the TPE, they might pull the trigger, with the expectation of shipping out surplus salary later on to get under the tax. I haven't looked to see how they could possibly do that though, because Turner is on $27m and I don't think we have the mix of salaries on our end to send out later on make that up.

If you send out Hauser into cap space and then trade off a couple of minimum contracts at the deadline, you can probably get there. We only have just over $13M in cap space as it stands, but it is more like $20M if Brad wants to get creative again at the deadline like he did this year.

We wouldn't be using the MLE in this case, but I'm just looking at options to get Giannis here and this one seemingly gives us a pretty big edge compared to offers from other teams. I wouldn't say it's my preference, though. Hauser and a legit MLE big gives us more flexibility and depth moving forward.

This is interesting...I will see if I can come up with something where we can somehow get under the cap and pay the Turner tax to get Giannis, assuming that's what we want to do.

[ozgod]

1. I think if the Cs want Giannis they can get him easier than any other team. The Heat's offer of Herro and a bunch of spare parts is not going to move the needle. They might have a higher pick in this year's draft but the bucks want an established guy back. Brown trumps pretty much anyone out there.

2. If JB is not traded then you have to give him the extension that locks him in for 5 more years and the yearly salary jumps to $70 mill. Going to have to do that soon with JT also. Not sure I want JB on the books for 5 more years north of $60 mill a year.

3. Brad sounded like a guy that knows his team is not good enough and fringe tweaks will not get it done.

IF this happens it is going to be sooner than later (before the draft).

I wouldn't be that worried about it, he's a very fungible contract. I'm pretty confident that perception of him amongst GMs, scouts, and other fans is much higher than it is here, because those folks aren't emotionally attached like we are. If Brad put him on the market there would be lots of interest, supermax or no. It's the same argument as when he was given the supermax, the last thing you want is to lose control of him and he walks for nothing and you can't replace him (or you replace him with a much lesser player) because we're already over the salary cap.

[Who]

1. I think if the Cs want Giannis they can get him easier than any other team. The Heat's offer of Herro and a bunch of spare parts is not going to move the needle. They might have a higher pick in this year's draft but the bucks want an established guy back. Brown trumps pretty much anyone out there.

2. If JB is not traded then you have to give him the extension that locks him in for 5 more years and the yearly salary jumps to $70 mill. Going to have to do that soon with JT also. Not sure I want JB on the books for 5 more years north of $60 mill a year.

3. Brad sounded like a guy that knows his team is not good enough and fringe tweaks will not get it done.

IF this happens it is going to be sooner than later (before the draft).

I wouldn't be that worried about it, he's a very fungible contract. I'm pretty confident that perception of him amongst GMs, scouts, and other fans is much higher than it is here, because those folks aren't emotionally attached like we are. If Brad put him on the market there would be lots of interest, supermax or no. It's the same argument as when he was given the supermax, the last thing you want is to lose control of him and he walks for nothing and you can't replace him (or you replace him with a much lesser player) because we're already over the salary cap.

I was listening to an ESPN clip with Brian Windhorst and Steven A Smith I believe it was -- not 100% sure it was them -- and they were saying that Jaylen would become an untradeable contract at that point. Or at least an undesireable one. Untradeable is the word I think they used.

Their reasoning was that anyone who gets that monster contract these days ($70mil per season) is untradeable. That nobody wants those deals. That players have seen their trade value drop way down after getting them. That they are hard to move.

I imagine outside of the MVP guys they are probably right. That those extensions have killed the trade values of other players. A lot of financial risk. And usually given to players who are 30 or so and on the risk of downturn in performances in the near future.

So ... I do think they have a point. That JB's extension may move him from high value trade asset to more of a harder to move trade asset due to size of his deal.

[slamtheking]

1. I think if the Cs want Giannis they can get him easier than any other team. The Heat's offer of Herro and a bunch of spare parts is not going to move the needle. They might have a higher pick in this year's draft but the bucks want an established guy back. Brown trumps pretty much anyone out there.

2. If JB is not traded then you have to give him the extension that locks him in for 5 more years and the yearly salary jumps to $70 mill. Going to have to do that soon with JT also. Not sure I want JB on the books for 5 more years north of $60 mill a year.

3. Brad sounded like a guy that knows his team is not good enough and fringe tweaks will not get it done.

IF this happens it is going to be sooner than later (before the draft).

I wouldn't be that worried about it, he's a very fungible contract. I'm pretty confident that perception of him amongst GMs, scouts, and other fans is much higher than it is here, because those folks aren't emotionally attached like we are. If Brad put him on the market there would be lots of interest, supermax or no. It's the same argument as when he was given the supermax, the last thing you want is to lose control of him and he walks for nothing and you can't replace him (or you replace him with a much lesser player) because we're already over the salary cap.

I was listening to an ESPN clip with Brian Windhorst and Steven A Smith I believe it was -- not 100% sure it was them -- and they were saying that Jaylen would become an untradeable contract at that point. Or at least an undesireable one. Untradeable is the word I think they used.

Their reasoning was that anyone who gets that monster contract these days ($70mil per season) is untradeable. That nobody wants those deals. That players have seen their trade value drop way down after getting them. That they are hard to move.

I imagine outside of the MVP guys that they are probably right. That those extensions have killed the trade values of other players. A lot of financial risk. And usually given to players who are 30 or so and on the risk of downturn in performances in the near future.

So ... I do think they have a point. That JB's extension may move him from high value trade asset to more of a harder to move trade asset due to size of his deal.

sounds like the reasoning behind Dallas trading Luka -- avoid a high-cost extension for someone they don't think will be improving their performance while make a lot more money.

this is the only reason I'd think about trading JB.  I definitely don't want to but knowing the Tatum will be up for an even more expensive extension the following year would make me think long and heavy on having 2 of those contracts on the team.  Moving JB for Giannis is even more problematic in relation to the extension Giannis will be eligible for if we acquire him because he's older with more games missed due to injury

[ozgod]

1. I think if the Cs want Giannis they can get him easier than any other team. The Heat's offer of Herro and a bunch of spare parts is not going to move the needle. They might have a higher pick in this year's draft but the bucks want an established guy back. Brown trumps pretty much anyone out there.

2. If JB is not traded then you have to give him the extension that locks him in for 5 more years and the yearly salary jumps to $70 mill. Going to have to do that soon with JT also. Not sure I want JB on the books for 5 more years north of $60 mill a year.

3. Brad sounded like a guy that knows his team is not good enough and fringe tweaks will not get it done.

IF this happens it is going to be sooner than later (before the draft).

I wouldn't be that worried about it, he's a very fungible contract. I'm pretty confident that perception of him amongst GMs, scouts, and other fans is much higher than it is here, because those folks aren't emotionally attached like we are. If Brad put him on the market there would be lots of interest, supermax or no. It's the same argument as when he was given the supermax, the last thing you want is to lose control of him and he walks for nothing and you can't replace him (or you replace him with a much lesser player) because we're already over the salary cap.

I was listening to an ESPN clip with Brian Windhorst and Steven A Smith I believe it was -- not 100% sure it was them -- and they were saying that Jaylen would become an untradeable contract at that point. Or at least an undesireable one. Untradeable is the word I think they used.

Their reasoning was that anyone who gets that monster contract these days ($70mil per season) is untradeable. That nobody wants those deals. That players have seen their trade value drop way down after getting them. That they are hard to move.

I imagine outside of the MVP guys they are probably right. That those extensions have killed the trade values of other players. A lot of financial risk. And usually given to players who are 30 or so and on the risk of downturn in performances in the near future.

So ... I do think they have a point. That JB's extension may move him from high value trade asset to more of a harder to move trade asset due to size of his deal.

The raw numbers get higher and higher, and I'm sure no team wants these deals, and everything they said that I highlighted is correct, but the market dictates the deals - the demand for the player. The supermax as a % of the total cap stays the same - 35%. And when I mean fungible, I mean there will probably be someone in the league willing to pay it to him, if Boston isn't. I would imagine that if Jaylen was put on the market right now there would be 29 teams interested. Here's a list of the NBA players currently on supermax contracts:

• Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (Oklahoma City Thunder)
• Jayson Tatum (Boston Celtics)
• Jaylen Brown (Boston Celtics)
• Nikola Jokić (Denver Nuggets)
• Giannis Antetokounmpo (Milwaukee Bucks)
• Luka Dončić (Dallas Mavericks)
• Devin Booker (Phoenix Suns)
• Karl-Anthony Towns (New York Knicks)
• Joel Embiid (Philadelphia 76ers)
• Bam Adebayo (Miami Heat)
• Bradley Beal (Phoenix Suns)
• Damian Lillard (Milwaukee Bucks / Portland Trail Blazers)
• James Harden (LA Clippers)

Some of those have aged well, some haven't...some we would look at and say how the hell did they get a supermax. Because at some point in time a team felt they needed to extend one of those players to a supermax or trade for them, either because they felt they were the piece they needed to contend, and that was the market rate for acquiring such a player, or they ran the risk of the player walking at the end of their contract (like Jaylen might have after his terrible Game 7 vs Miami in the ECF and the Celtics getting blown out after he had 8 turnovers. At the time nobody wanted him to sign the extension but we ran the risk of him walking for nothing, and that was the market rate for player of his level. Because not everyone can get an MVP level player in trade.

So if Brad decides he's not worth it, he's going to have to pull a Luka, and trade Jaylen now to someone who does think he's worth it and extends Jaylen, or he can sign Jaylen, and then trade him to someone who thinks he's worth it, like LA did with Luka. I'm not a GM but I would imagine there's plenty of teams who are desperate to either get into the playoffs or make a deep run, and would jump at the chance to have Jaylen, whether he's on a supermax or not.

What Brad doesn't want is for Jaylen to walk for nothing in return, because we won't be able to replace him with another supermax player given we are $62m over the salary cap...so we would replace him with an $8m player.

For those reasons I think it's almost a given that if he stays with us he's going to be given that supermax extension and I will disagree with Stephen A, I think we'll be able to offload him to another team if we need to, as long as we time it right and before any obvious deterioration. But what do I know 

I also want to point out for those who want a Jaylen/Jayson/Giannis Big Three, doing that would mean we would be the only team to have THREE supermax players on the same team...won't leave much $$$ for anyone else if anything happens to one of our Big Three (unfortunately unlike NBA2k we can't turn off injuries  )

[Moranis]

The problem with the individual player maximum is sets expectations.  Jaylen has to get a 35% max to not feel slighted. Jaylen isnt worth 35% of the cap though.  He is more a 25-30% type player.  He is overpaid for what he brings, but the system basically forces Boston to offer him 35% especially as he ages.  If Boston signs him to that extension, they will hamstring themselves, but they basically have to offer that or trade Brown.

If Brown is truly serious about wanting to stay in Boston, he should accept an extension well below the maximum.  Might even offer him a no trade depending on what that extension percentage is.