The Beginning of a Dynasty?

[cman88]

the Celtics have been in the ECF 6 of the last 9 years and the finals 2 of the last 3. our current core is going to be locked up at least the next 2 years and Tatum/Brown are just entering their prime and have shown now they know how to win.

yet, i'm supposed to believe from certain posters its unrealistic to expect a long/successful run?

[cman88]

The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

The early 2000 pistons is a lazy comparison.   I am so tired of it.  The whole idea you need a certain player who is a top 5 by someone else's judgement is dumb.   The power of the collective of this team was why we won.   We don't know how good Tatum and Brown, and KP, DWhite and Jrue can become.   I think they can get better than they were this year.   I don't know if they can win another title, but this years run was a dominating performance.  I think we shouldn't expect more titles, they are difficult, but that has nothing to do with us not having a top 30 all time player, who even decides that?  You?   

So happy for this team.   They did it by playing unselfish team basketball, and by having continued improvement from the whole roster.   I don't think they have peaked yet.  I think they will be in the mix for the coming years.   I don't think they are satisfied with just 1 title.

its the same posters who just cant get admit they were wrong about tatum/brown. Now Tatum/Brown still aren't good enough! they just lucked out, they are just the 00's pistons with no star...

for all the success that Tatum/Brown have had in Boston I've never seen such insult of their talent from the media and fans on this board.  people are still trying to say that Brown doesn't effect "winning".

the funny thing is, I don't think the same posters would say Giannis is out of it if I said that yet he's been a 1st or 2nd round exit every year. If anything, him winning was more of a fluke than boston who has been on the doorstep every year. and MVP Embiid has never sniffed a conference championship. i'm sure they would adamently say "luka will be back" when you can look at the mavs run as more of a fluke than boston making and winning it.

nothing Boston has shown me during the tatum/brown era would tell me they wont be back here. barring health its not unrealistic to expect they will be. The knock on them is they havent been able to break through. and these guys are entering their prime and just learned how to win.

we got a solid 4-5 year run with KG/Pierce/Allen. but those guys were 31. Tatum/Brown are 26/27 and should only be getting better as they are just entering their primes.

[Moranis]

The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

The early 2000 pistons is a lazy comparison.   I am so tired of it.  The whole idea you need a certain player who is a top 5 by someone else's judgement is dumb.   The power of the collective of this team was why we won.   We don't know how good Tatum and Brown, and KP, DWhite and Jrue can become.   I think they can get better than they were this year.   I don't know if they can win another title, but this years run was a dominating performance.  I think we shouldn't expect more titles, they are difficult, but that has nothing to do with us not having a top 30 all time player, who even decides that?  You?   

So happy for this team.   They did it by playing unselfish team basketball, and by having continued improvement from the whole roster.   I don't think they have peaked yet.  I think they will be in the mix for the coming years.   I don't think they are satisfied with just 1 title.

The Pistons were a team that was better than any individual part. They went 6 deep of really good players. Now they did lose some bench guys after winning and Boston may not, but that team had a ton of success over many years.  Winning once and going to the Finals another time.  I do think Boston should be a heavy favorite to get back to the Finals as teams are currently constructed, but there is still an off season where presumably other teams will improve while Boston will only get internal improvement. 

[BringToughnessBack]

I have said all along and will stick with it. When all is said and done, we will have 4 titles under Tatum/Brown era. 1 down, 3 to go.

Horford will actually be the hardest piece to replace in the future. We need a glue veteran who is awesome like him. Players like that do not grow on trees for sure.

Oh, our 2 superstars have just entered their prime. They will still continue to get better. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional. Look at the growth from both of them this year compared to last. Even in close games. It is day and night.

[cman88]

The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

The early 2000 pistons is a lazy comparison.   I am so tired of it.  The whole idea you need a certain player who is a top 5 by someone else's judgement is dumb.   The power of the collective of this team was why we won.   We don't know how good Tatum and Brown, and KP, DWhite and Jrue can become.   I think they can get better than they were this year.   I don't know if they can win another title, but this years run was a dominating performance.  I think we shouldn't expect more titles, they are difficult, but that has nothing to do with us not having a top 30 all time player, who even decides that?  You?   

So happy for this team.   They did it by playing unselfish team basketball, and by having continued improvement from the whole roster.   I don't think they have peaked yet.  I think they will be in the mix for the coming years.   I don't think they are satisfied with just 1 title.

The Pistons were a team that was better than any individual part. They went 6 deep of really good players. Now they did lose some bench guys after winning and Boston may not, but that team had a ton of success over many years.  Winning once and going to the Finals another time.  I do think Boston should be a heavy favorite to get back to the Finals as teams are currently constructed, but there is still an off season where presumably other teams will improve while Boston will only get internal improvement.

I think Tatum and brown are better than anyone on that 00 pistons team. I understand the narrative you are trying to go with this that Boston doesn?t have a ?star? like other teams.

But brown and Tatum clearly are all nba top talents. I mean you don?t think they are clearly better than billups/rip Hamilton?

I mean Tatum just put himself in conversations with HOFers by leading his team in points, rebounds and assists. And also has passed Kobe for most points at his age

[W8ting2McHale]

I don?t know about dynasty, but the Celtics do have a good shot at repeating next year if Big Al and Porzingis hold up. Unlike other years this team avoided having the season derailed by injuries.

It?s possible though. I think finally winning a championship after knocking on the door for so long will lift the cap off the ceiling that has been holding both the J?s back a little bit. I think getting denied was wearing on their confidence and they had doubts that held them back (just like a lot of fans had).

Replacing Al will be difficult but Brad seems to have found a magic wand.

Then again, that?s just 1 win in 3 years of knocking on the door, so maybe they?re just the ?60s Lakers that just get 1 after years of frustration? And maybe Luka does make it back, but nothing is certain there either. Or maybe he?s Charles Barkley and just failed at his one shot? I actually think Minnesota, Denver or OKC have a better chance of being in the finals next season than Dallas getting back there unless Lively makes a big leap.

If the teams in the West beat each other up and things fall into place for the Celtics like they did this season, the Celtics could have a good chance at winning another title in 2025-26.

[Moranis]

The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

The early 2000 pistons is a lazy comparison.   I am so tired of it.  The whole idea you need a certain player who is a top 5 by someone else's judgement is dumb.   The power of the collective of this team was why we won.   We don't know how good Tatum and Brown, and KP, DWhite and Jrue can become.   I think they can get better than they were this year.   I don't know if they can win another title, but this years run was a dominating performance.  I think we shouldn't expect more titles, they are difficult, but that has nothing to do with us not having a top 30 all time player, who even decides that?  You?   

So happy for this team.   They did it by playing unselfish team basketball, and by having continued improvement from the whole roster.   I don't think they have peaked yet.  I think they will be in the mix for the coming years.   I don't think they are satisfied with just 1 title.

The Pistons were a team that was better than any individual part. They went 6 deep of really good players. Now they did lose some bench guys after winning and Boston may not, but that team had a ton of success over many years.  Winning once and going to the Finals another time.  I do think Boston should be a heavy favorite to get back to the Finals as teams are currently constructed, but there is still an off season where presumably other teams will improve while Boston will only get internal improvement.

I think Tatum and brown are better than anyone on that 00 pistons team. I understand the narrative you are trying to go with this that Boston doesn?t have a ?star? like other teams.

But brown and Tatum clearly are all nba top talents. I mean you don?t think they are clearly better than billups/rip Hamilton?

I mean Tatum just put himself in conversations with HOFers by leading his team in points, rebounds and assists. And also has passed Kobe for most points at his age

Ben Wallace is one of the best defenders and rebounders in the sports history.  He won 4 DPOY and finished in the top 10 of MVP voting 3 times.  He couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but as far impact on the court, he is very similar to Tatum.  For example, the last 2 seasons Tatum has had winshares of 10.5 and 10.4.  Starting in 2002, these are Ben's winshares in his prime seasons 11.6, 10.6, 10.2 (title), 8.5 (finals), 10.1.  He was just so good defensively he could alter games the way a guy like Tatum can offensively.  And Ben wasn't even the highest Piston during their run, that was Billups.  He joined in 2003, his winshares were 9.9, 11.3 (title), 12.1 (finals), 15.5, 11.4, 13.5.  He was such a unique player that while not being a top of the line scorer, he was uber efficient offensively and an excellent (if not elite) defender.  That 15.5 season his Offensive WS were 12.7.  I'm not sure Tatum will ever hit 12.7 total winshares let alone offensively. 

The Pistons lost Okur and Williamson from the title team (basically replaced both with McDyess and Elden Campbell who barely played) or they might have been able to repeat.  Those were big losses to their bench and they still took the Spurs to 7 games the following year.

So to answer your question, I do think Tatum is the best player on those teams, but he hasn't yet truly impacted the game like either Ben or Chauncey.  Those guys did all of the little things to make that team succeed and it showed in their advanced metrics, that they could win as a team at a high level for a long time without a #1 scoring option on their team (Hamilton was their most consistent scorer, but he'd be 3rd behind Tatum and Brown on this team).  That is how Boston won this title though.  Tatum functioned much less as a mega #1 scoring option. He only averaged 22 ppg in the Finals (and 25 overall in the playoffs), but was rebounding and passing like a true team player and he made real sacrifices to his numbers to get it done.

So I do think the Celtics are a lot closer to the Pistons than true dynasties.  Celtics are in a good spot to repeat as they do get everyone back, but the C's also aren't really able to get better, while other teams can.  The offseason moves of some of the other contenders, especially in the east, will go a long way to determine how likely Boston is to repeat.

[cman88]

Tatum put up 30 in game 3 and 5 carrying the offense. This idea he cannot be a scorer is nonsensical.

How does someone not impact the game yet lead their team in points rebounds and assists?

He wasn?t in games 1 or 2. But luckily Jrue/KP/brown held down the fort as he was double and triple teamed and made the right decision instead of trying to score over 3 people like in 2022

And literally only reason those 3 were wide open or had those games was because the attention Tatum got

[angryguy77]

IDK about dynasty, but I can see us be similar to the Spurs, We may not repeat, but I could see a situation where win a few in the span of 8 years.
It's going to hinge on how good JT can be in the playoffs and health.

[Goldstar88]

Better to talk about a dynasty when you are actually in one.  This team isn?t a dynasty and has a long way to go to be considered one.  So many things can curtail a sports dynasty that it isn?t worth predicting that it will or won?t happen.  Given that there is a team in the West that might be of equal talent who also has a championship the idea of a dynasty might be negated simply by there being an equally worthy rival. To win three as the 80?s Cs did would be amazing, but if another team wins 5 as LAL did, there isn?t actually a dynasty.

Satisfied with one for now and just hope they stay competitive over the next 5 years.

The thread is to discuss whether this team is good enough to become a dynasty. Of course a lot of things have to go right for that to happen, but it doesn?t mean it?s not worth thinking about and discussing.

[Phantom255x]

I think the East is set up for Boston to rule for many years, sort of like how Lebron ran it for a handful of years. No, that obviously doesn't mean we'll make like 8 Finals in a row like Lebron did with Miami/Cleveland (though that'd be nice) and always finish the 1 seed. But honestly, a lot of the East is getting older (Giannis, Butler, Embiid, etc.) and the Jays are theoretically about to reach their "peak years" which is typically between the ages of 27-31.

Some things also depend on how free agency goes. Klay, George, Anunoby are among the key guys who could move teams and probably land with an East contender.

But idk... you also have to factor in injuries and while Porzingis is injury prone for us, there's also a lot of others in the East who are injury prone. Even Giannis has become that in recent years. The path to get to the Finals might not be that daunting in the next few years, and Boston has already been able to make the ECF a lot over the past decade.

Kind of reminds me of the New England Patriots. The AFC Championship Game was considered the "Gillete Stadium Invitational" or "Brady and Belichick invitational". Didn't mean they always made the Super Bowl or won it all that year but they almost always reached the AFCCG at least. Celtics might be able to do the same. I do have high hopes this core can get the Banner count to 20, maybe more 

[ozgod]

The Athletic's John Hollinger doesn't think we can be a dynasty.

Coming off a dominant season in a shattered Eastern Conference, the Celtics could hardly be in a better position to defend their title. And yet, even as we acknowledge Boston as a clear favorite, I?ll urge some caution as we head into next season. As I noted at the top, things are never as inevitable as they seem. A Celtics cynic could point out a few things:

• Their system depends heavily on two rare centers, one of whom is very old and the other of whom is very injury-prone.
• While Tatum is great, the Celtics are unlikely to have the best player on the court in any important series.
• The East may not be such a cakewalk next time around: We never saw the Milwaukee Bucks at full strength, the Philadelphia 76ers and Indiana Pacers are positioned to heavily rearm themselves in the offseason and the New York Knicks are building the same kind of ensemble cast the Celtics dominated with. And surely the Miami Heat aren?t going to take all this lying down ? right?

They?re great, basically. But they?re not inevitable. In a 30-team league, it takes tremendous fortune to survive the playoff meat-grinder even once. Boston is in a better position than anyone else to do it again, but recent history suggests betting on the field might still be the sharper play.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5569914/2024/06/18/boston-celtics-salary-cap-nba-free-agency/

[Phantom255x]

The Athletic's John Hollinger doesn't think we can be a dynasty.

Coming off a dominant season in a shattered Eastern Conference, the Celtics could hardly be in a better position to defend their title. And yet, even as we acknowledge Boston as a clear favorite, I?ll urge some caution as we head into next season. As I noted at the top, things are never as inevitable as they seem. A Celtics cynic could point out a few things:

• Their system depends heavily on two rare centers, one of whom is very old and the other of whom is very injury-prone.
• While Tatum is great, the Celtics are unlikely to have the best player on the court in any important series.
• The East may not be such a cakewalk next time around: We never saw the Milwaukee Bucks at full strength, the Philadelphia 76ers and Indiana Pacers are positioned to heavily rearm themselves in the offseason and the New York Knicks are building the same kind of ensemble cast the Celtics dominated with. And surely the Miami Heat aren?t going to take all this lying down ? right?

They?re great, basically. But they?re not inevitable. In a 30-team league, it takes tremendous fortune to survive the playoff meat-grinder even once. Boston is in a better position than anyone else to do it again, but recent history suggests betting on the field might still be the sharper play.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5569914/2024/06/18/boston-celtics-salary-cap-nba-free-agency/

These are all fair points. We can obviously disagree but I do think the first point is worth noting. They need to hope at least one of Tillman/Queta can carve out a bigger role OR acquire another depth big to help KP/Horford given KP's injury history and Horford's age.

I'm not so sure about the 3rd point. I mean NY and Indiana can absolutely rise and some things depend on what these teams do in FA. But is Embiid expected to stay healthy all year? Giannis? Butler? We'll see. I mean I just think it's also just as likely people in the national media will complain about our "easy path" again a year from now 

But we can worry about this stuff later. I'm still in heaven after winning it all just 2 days ago 

[mobilija]

IDK about dynasty, but I can see us be similar to the Spurs, We may not repeat, but I could see a situation where win a few in the span of 8 years.
It's going to hinge on how good JT can be in the playoffs and health.

And who Brad surrounds our dynamic duo with?.

Best case scenario, the next two years the team looks like this years team. White gets an extension, Horford signs on for another year or two, maybe we lose Hauser but maybe a young guy can fill his spot (albeit differently)

After that it?s likely the team will need to retool in some way. Zinger contract up, Horford gone, Jrue will be aged. Having been deep in the tax/2nd apron the team may need to tear things down a bit in order to reset. Could be a dicey year or two.

This is why I think we really need to find/develop some young cost controled talent for those years down the road.

It?s gonna be work to make a Dynasty unless it happens in the next 2 years 🤞

[CelticsWhat35]

My feeling is that it?s not worth entertaining the question of if they could until a team wins b2b or 2 out of 3 years