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The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« on: June 18, 2024, 09:19:08 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Tatum and Brown just entered their prime. KP is 28, D- White is 29. Jrue just turned 34, but he?s been pretty durable and should have few more good years in him. If D-White signs an extension and the C?s are able to keep that core together, how many championships do you see them winning?
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2024, 10:30:53 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Yeah, I could see it.

NYK, Indy, and MiL are threats in the East. Denver, Minny, OKC, and Dallas should also contend. None of these teams *should* beat the Celtics after 7 games. I think they should be a heavy favorite to win next year.
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Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2024, 10:42:21 PM »

Offline Redz

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With a day to let it settle in, I?m feeling deeply satisfied with the Celts winning the championship, but not as super giddy as some of the others I?ve lived through.  As opposed to every other  Celtics great team this year was different because of the perceived past shortcomings of JT and JB and the pressure for them to win.  They were so [dang] good they just had to win by powering through a league that couldn?t keep up with them.  I won?t call it joyless, but anything less would have been absurd.  It?s a great accomplishment and super happy for all of them.  I love the way they played and genuinely enjoy the cast of characters.  It?s just more of a relief that they did it. 

Here?s hoping for a long run of awesomeness from these guys now that the monkey is off their back.
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Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2024, 10:42:25 PM »

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Tatum and Brown just entered their prime. KP is 28, D- White is 29. Jrue just turned 34, but he?s been pretty durable and should have few more good years in him. If D-White signs an extension and the C?s are able to keep that core together, how many championships do you see them winning?

I?d like to see a similar run like the Warriors.

Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2024, 11:00:27 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Tatum and Brown just entered their prime. KP is 28, D- White is 29. Jrue just turned 34, but he?s been pretty durable and should have few more good years in him. If D-White signs an extension and the C?s are able to keep that core together, how many championships do you see them winning?

I?d like to see a similar run like the Warriors.

If healthy, I think they will. 3 championships in a 5-6 year span. If the Celtics are full strength, who is challenging them? Maybe Denver. Boston was so dominant this year and now after winning a Championship, they have that weight lifted off their shoulders. If Joe can keep the players dialed in, the team could be even better next season.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 11:50:42 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2024, 11:07:57 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Tatum and Brown just entered their prime. KP is 28, D- White is 29. Jrue just turned 34, but he?s been pretty durable and should have few more good years in him. If D-White signs an extension and the C?s are able to keep that core together, how many championships do you see them winning?

I?d like to see a similar run like the Warriors.

That would be awesome. But again, health is the name of the game. And this team, this year, was healthy for the most part. Except Porzingis when it mattered most, but we knew that when we traded for him last offseason.

Next year, the core needs to remain healthy like...very healthy.


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Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2024, 12:10:47 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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It?d be disappointing if this core only wins one. Would love back to back. Dynasties are ridiculously rare & tough.  Im not betting on that.

When all is said & done, 2-3 titles with this core would have me ecstatic.  3 would really be awesome. Puts the organization at 20 and provides some breathing room with LAL.

One at a time, though. They broke thru so they have that part behind them. Stay healthy and focused.


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Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2024, 01:06:06 AM »

Online Moranis

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The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.
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Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2024, 01:38:50 AM »

Offline jpotter33

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The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

I mean, how is this unrealistic, though? We have our entire rotation coming back next year sans one or two of our 9th/10th guys locked up with capable replacements for them already. Further, we played the vast majority of the playoffs without KP or with an injured KP, yet we still dominated the competition despite Tatum shooting poorly throughout.

Barring some major trades, there?s absolutely no reason to think of us as anything less than heavy favorites next year. And if we win it next year, that?d be three Finals appearances in four years with two titles to show for it. That?s a dynasty in my eyes and something that is completely realistic, if not outright the most probable scenario right now.
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Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2024, 01:58:37 AM »

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The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

The early 2000 pistons is a lazy comparison.   I am so tired of it.  The whole idea you need a certain player who is a top 5 by someone else's judgement is dumb.   The power of the collective of this team was why we won.   We don't know how good Tatum and Brown, and KP, DWhite and Jrue can become.   I think they can get better than they were this year.   I don't know if they can win another title, but this years run was a dominating performance.  I think we shouldn't expect more titles, they are difficult, but that has nothing to do with us not having a top 30 all time player, who even decides that?  You?   

So happy for this team.   They did it by playing unselfish team basketball, and by having continued improvement from the whole roster.   I don't think they have peaked yet.  I think they will be in the mix for the coming years.   I don't think they are satisfied with just 1 title.



Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2024, 02:11:23 AM »

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Better to talk about a dynasty when you are actually in one.  This team isn?t a dynasty and has a long way to go to be considered one.  So many things can curtail a sports dynasty that it isn?t worth predicting that it will or won?t happen.  Given that there is a team in the West that might be of equal talent who also has a championship the idea of a dynasty might be negated simply by there being an equally worthy rival. To win three as the 80?s Cs did would be amazing, but if another team wins 5 as LAL did, there isn?t actually a dynasty.

Satisfied with one for now and just hope they stay competitive over the next 5 years. 

Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2024, 03:01:22 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2024, 03:06:11 AM »

Offline Who

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The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

I mean, how is this unrealistic, though? We have our entire rotation coming back next year sans one or two of our 9th/10th guys locked up with capable replacements for them already. Further, we played the vast majority of the playoffs without KP or with an injured KP, yet we still dominated the competition despite Tatum shooting poorly throughout.

Barring some major trades, there?s absolutely no reason to think of us as anything less than heavy favorites next year. And if we win it next year, that?d be three Finals appearances in four years with two titles to show for it. That?s a dynasty in my eyes and something that is completely realistic, if not outright the most probable scenario right now.

Like a little mini-dynasty.

I was thinking of the Kobe & Pau Lakers teams there a few days ago. They only really had a 4 year run together. Finals in 2008. Champs in 2009 and 2010. Eliminated by Dallas in 2011. Never a title contender. I was shocked by how brief it was. It felt like they had a longer run than that.

Anyway, the two titles and a Finals appearance (if the Celtics repeat next year) reminded me of the Kobe & Pau Lakers.

Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2024, 03:59:23 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Tatum and Brown just entered their prime. KP is 28, D- White is 29. Jrue just turned 34, but he?s been pretty durable and should have few more good years in him. If D-White signs an extension and the C?s are able to keep that core together, how many championships do you see them winning?

Depends how much tax Wyc is willing to pay and how long they are prepared to live above the second apron. Being above the second apron is fine when you have a perfect team and don't need to add or remove anyone...it gets problematic when you do, like the Suns right now. They're very limited in who they can trade for, they can't aggregate salaries which limits who they can send out, their draft pick will be frozen if they remain up there and they can't use cash in trades.

I posted this in the Derrick White extension thread to see what our cap might look like in 2025-26, 2 years from now, if we kept the gang together:

As an intellectual exercise let's say we paid everyone, which we can because they are all our players we have Bird rights to. Blew through the salary cap, the luxury tax, and the 2nd apron. Say we paid JT his 5 year supermax, matched an offer for $50m a year for 4 years for Derrick, paid Sam $10m and paid Al $5m, and everyone on the roster vet min. Say we got rid of Svi, JD and Drew Peterson. Our hope would be that everyone keeps performing.



So we would have 14 players on the roster before signing a couple of two-ways as bench fodder, this roster would cost us $268m (plus $4m in cap holds for Blake and Kabengele). We would be $113m over the salary cap, $84m over the luxury tax so based on my calculation, using standard luxury tax rate starting at $1.25 for the first $6m we are over the tax, increasing by 50c for every $6m we are over, topping off at $8.25 for the last $6m of our $84m, we would pay a total of $414m in tax in 2025-26. And this is using standard tax rates...the repeater tax rates are higher. So our roster would cost Wyc $682m. (Celtics2021 and Jambr and other CBA experts are welcome to see if I did the calculations right, based on being $84m over the tax and using a tax bracket of $6m and the tax rates based on the CBA at https://nbpa.com/cba page 184).

Let's assume we did it. We would then be locked in to this team for at least a few years, since we can only trade like for like and can't aggregate, and the shortest major contract would be KP's which would run to 2026-27. How long would this be sustainable? Would Wyc be ok with this?

The answer to this question will be the answer to whether we can be a dynasty or not. And can Brad sign the right contract sizes to be able to trade those players when they only starting to decline, on their own without having to aggregate anyone else.

But the most important thing right now is that Brad controls the team's destiny. He can choose to extend players or not, he's not saddled by any bad contracts right now. Even the Jrue contract that people were concerned about...well after how Jrue did in the playoffs I think we would find plenty of takers if we wanted to ship his contract out next year. Same with Jaylen, since a lot of people were upset about his $300 supermax and worried he wasn't worth it. After East and Finals MVPs I'm sure there will be plenty of takers for him if Brad wanted to get rid of him. So Brad's in a good position in terms of the assets he has on his balance sheet right now.

As for Wyc, I think he will pay...for a while. While the team is winning, and there's no obvious deterioration, I think he will swallow even paying $500m in luxury tax. But they will be on the lookout for any drops in player performance that might be indicative of age...they won't want to be in GS's position, paying $500m for an aging, injured squad that didn't make the playoffs and struggled all season.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 05:33:35 AM by ozgod »
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: The Beginning of a Dynasty?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2024, 04:51:54 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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The early 00 Pistons are the most likely comparison. It is hard to win 1 title let alone 2 and the teams that have won multiple titles all had at least 1 top 30 player all time and many of those teams had more than 1 such player (the only exceptions are the Cowens Celtics and Reed Knicks - so both pre-merger and in the parity filled 70's).  As good as Tatum and Brown are, neither is anywhere near that type of player. I'm not even sure they are Cowens or Reed either (well at least Reed in 70, by 73 he tailed off but they did have a host of HOFers).

Let's just enjoy 1 before we put unrealistic expectations of a dynasty on the team.

I mean, how is this unrealistic, though? We have our entire rotation coming back next year sans one or two of our 9th/10th guys locked up with capable replacements for them already. Further, we played the vast majority of the playoffs without KP or with an injured KP, yet we still dominated the competition despite Tatum shooting poorly throughout.

Barring some major trades, there?s absolutely no reason to think of us as anything less than heavy favorites next year. And if we win it next year, that?d be three Finals appearances in four years with two titles to show for it. That?s a dynasty in my eyes and something that is completely realistic, if not outright the most probable scenario right now.

Like a little mini-dynasty.

I was thinking of the Kobe & Pau Lakers teams there a few days ago. They only really had a 4 year run together. Finals in 2008. Champs in 2009 and 2010. Eliminated by Dallas in 2011. Never a title contender. I was shocked by how brief it was. It felt like they had a longer run than that.

Anyway, the two titles and a Finals appearance (if the Celtics repeat next year) reminded me of the Kobe & Pau Lakers.
Aesthetically I agree with this if we make it back to the Finals next season, but I think something like a Spurs Decade* is more likely (and I think we're already in the midst of one right now, but that could just me).

*let's say a record that winds up looking like San Antonio's from 03-4 to '13-14.

I'm much happier to be staking our team's performance on Jaylen & Jayson than JJ Reddick and LeBron, though.
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