Woj: Jrue to Celtics

[Kernewek]

As I said before the trade was announced, I'm not convinced a guard rotation of White/Brogdon/Smart is a downgrade from White/Holiday. That's still my position, even if I'm going to root for the backcourt we have.

Good thing we didn't trade Smart and Brogdon for Holiday, then?

The net trades, on the court, are KP + Jrue vs. Smart + Brogdon + Timelord

Factor in Walsh if you want to, or Pritchard's increased minutes, or the likelihood of injury.

But, again...  I really don't get the argument by you and Who, that somehow we should value the Jrue trade against the value of Marcus Smart.  Smart is gone, and was gone before the Jrue trade, so he's pretty irrelevant.

Aaah I got logged out whilst replying. Here's the short version.

The comparison comes from the fact that they are players who have been exchanged over the same offseason, rather than their involvement in a particular trade deal. In other words, this is why I think would be fair to compare Zinger & Horford against Horford & Williams, even though Timelord wasn't traded for Porzingis.

Now, I'm in 100% agreement with you that I am much happier with Holiday/White than I am with White/Brogdon. The guard rotation is definitely better now than it was a few days ago, but I am less sure about whether or not the guard rotation is better overall than the one we ended the season with.

[Donoghus]

What number will Holiday wear? 11?

Pritchard has 11.  I'm assuming #21, like he did in Milwaukee.

Bill Sharman.

Ah.  I guess that won't do.  What numbers do we have available?  The recently opened up #13 and #44 don't seem all that appealing.

I'll guess #12, then?  That was Grant, right?  And Rozier?

The answer is #4.

Etienne Catalan
@EtienneCatalan
·
2h
Jrue Holiday (
@Jrue_Holiday11
) will wear No. 4 for the #Celtics. Number last worn Noah Vonleh in 2023. #NBA

Nice for the Celtics letting him wear Tony Battie's number.

[johnnygreen]

I'm saying that if we're picking and choosing our seasons (like 2018 for example) it should be noted that he's never had a post-season where he improved on his regular season performance. You can find reasons to explain that away all you like, as is the nature of sports, but it doesn't change the fact.

Maybe some players can improve their regular season numbers come playoff time because they essentially don't give the same effort. Jimmy Butler being the ultimate example. Maybe Jrue plays hard every night, regardless if it's a regular season or playoff game.

[Roy H.]

As I said before the trade was announced, I'm not convinced a guard rotation of White/Brogdon/Smart is a downgrade from White/Holiday. That's still my position, even if I'm going to root for the backcourt we have.

Good thing we didn't trade Smart and Brogdon for Holiday, then?

The net trades, on the court, are KP + Jrue vs. Smart + Brogdon + Timelord

Factor in Walsh if you want to, or Pritchard's increased minutes, or the likelihood of injury.

But, again...  I really don't get the argument by you and Who, that somehow we should value the Jrue trade against the value of Marcus Smart.  Smart is gone, and was gone before the Jrue trade, so he's pretty irrelevant.

Aaah I got logged out whilst replying. Here's the short version.

The comparison comes from the fact that they are players who have been exchanged over the same offseason, rather than their involvement in a particular trade deal. In other words, this is why I think would be fair to compare Zinger & Horford against Horford & Williams, even though Timelord wasn't traded for Porzingis.

Now, I'm in 100% agreement with you that I am much happier with Holiday/White than I am with White/Brogdon. The guard rotation is definitely better now than it was a few days ago, but I am less sure about whether or not the guard rotation is better overall than the one we ended the season with.

Well, there's a tradeoff.  We're better upfront (in theory), we're arguably worse in the backcourt.

Although we have to remember that we ended last season with an injured Malcolm Brogdon who ceased playing defense.  And apparently, the rumors about Brogdon being irritated / angry really were true.  So, perhaps it's by his own doing, but Brogdon was going to be a diminished asset heading into 2024, unfortunately.

I don't share your misgivings about the trade.  I think our top-6 upgraded fairly substantially.  And, I'm okay with Hauser and Pritchard on the bench, and I can deal with Kornet as very deep bench help.

What I don't understand is why Brad has continued to dabble in fringe NBA players in free agency.  Hopefully I'm surprised, but I think that Brad was downright neglectful in adding players who can credibly play, particularly at big man.  It's incongruent to me to make big, all-in moves via trade while not upgrading via free agency.  We let Grant walk, and haven't really replaced him.

[RJ87]

I'm saying that if we're picking and choosing our seasons (like 2018 for example) it should be noted that he's never had a post-season where he improved on his regular season performance. You can find reasons to explain that away all you like, as is the nature of sports, but it doesn't change the fact.

I would expect that most players, on a per-possession basis, get worse in the playoffs.  They're playing against better competition, teams specifically game-plan against them, and guys have just completed a long season.

And, "he's never had a post-season where he improved on his regular season performance" isn't really true.  For instance, in 2018 he put up 24 / 6 / 6 / .565 eFG%. 

But, if he "only" performs at his career playoff averages of 18 / 7 / 5 with elite defense, I'll take that over either Smart or Brogdon.

Lastly, where did I pick and choose seasons?  I cited how impressive he was in 2018, making All-Defense while playing out of position.  But, it's not like he hasn't been excellent over the past five years, or really, his entire career.  Unfortunately, in two out of three seasons, Marcus didn't consistently show up on defense, and Brogdon's D was terrible last year (despite him calling out his teammates on that end).

Well interestingly to the bolded, and to explain the relevance to the conversation, the guy he's replacing - Smart - regularly played better in the postseason than the regular season.

I like Jrue as a player. I've enjoyed him since his rookie year backing up AI squared. But I don't think looking at any player's performance from five years ago is particularly pertinent to his potential moving forward, and I don't think he was very impressive last season. As I said before the trade was announced, I'm not convinced a guard rotation of White/Brogdon/Smart is a downgrade from White/Holiday. That's still my position, even if I'm going to root for the backcourt we have.

Is that because Smart raised his level of play in the playoffs or because he didn't take regular season games as seriously and competitively as he should have?

There's been a lot of talk over the past few years about this team playing down to it's competition and not playing as hard as they should have. You might have just hit the nail on the head. Afterall, he was the so-called "heart and soul" of a team who's heart has been questioned quite a bit.

[Kernewek]

Is that because Smart raised his level of play in the playoffs or because he didn't take regular season games as seriously and competitively as he should have?

There's been a lot of talk over the past few years about this team playing down to it's competition and not playing as hard as they should have. You might have just hit the nail on the head. Afterall, he was the so-called "heart and soul" of a team who's heart has been questioned quite a bit.

A few posters have raised similar points, and while I have to agree that this is possible (and remains to be seen in the new season) I'm not convinced that this is necessarily the case - the Big 3 Celtics used to play down to their competition during the regular season as well, but I don't believe you would say that the heart and soul of that team, KG, was phoning it in.

For any reasonable viewer, it's fairly clear that the lack of effort in the Jays era has always been linked to timidity, particularly on defense, when the shots weren't falling. I don't think that's something you can fairly level against Smart.

Well, there's a tradeoff.  We're better upfront (in theory), we're arguably worse in the front court.

Although we have to remember that we ended last season with an injured Malcolm Brogdon who ceased playing defense.  And apparently, the rumors about Brogdon being irritated / angry really were true.  So, perhaps it's by his own doing, but Brogdon was going to be a diminished asset heading into 2024, unfortunately.

I don't share your misgivings about the trade.  I think our top-6 upgraded fairly substantially.  And, I'm okay with Hauser and Pritchard on the bench, and I can deal with Kornet as very deep bench help.

What I don't understand is why Brad has continued to dabble in fringe NBA players in free agency.  Hopefully I'm surprised, but I think that Brad was downright neglectful in adding players who can credibly play, particularly at big man.  It's incongruent to me to make big, all-in moves via trade while not upgrading via free agency.  We let Grant walk, and haven't really replaced him.

Agreed with the last portion - and even though I'm on about this ad nauseum I really do think being reliant on Horford is a mistake, just like last season. That's the kind of guy we should be looking at as the first big off the bench, not an important starter on a championship team. He should be our David West signing with Golden State, y'know?

[Surferdad]

Is that because Smart raised his level of play in the playoffs or because he didn't take regular season games as seriously and competitively as he should have?

There's been a lot of talk over the past few years about this team playing down to it's competition and not playing as hard as they should have. You might have just hit the nail on the head. Afterall, he was the so-called "heart and soul" of a team who's heart has been questioned quite a bit.

A few posters have raised similar points, and while I have to agree that this is possible (and remains to be seen in the new season) I'm not convinced that this is necessarily the case - the Big 3 Celtics used to play down to their competition during the regular season as well, but I don't believe you would say that the heart and soul of that team, KG, was phoning it in.

For any reasonable viewer, it's fairly clear that the lack of effort in the Jays era has always been linked to timidity, particularly on defense, when the shots weren't falling, particularly on defense. I don't think that's something you can fairly level against Smart.

Well, there's a tradeoff.  We're better upfront (in theory), we're arguably worse in the front court.

Although we have to remember that we ended last season with an injured Malcolm Brogdon who ceased playing defense.  And apparently, the rumors about Brogdon being irritated / angry really were true.  So, perhaps it's by his own doing, but Brogdon was going to be a diminished asset heading into 2024, unfortunately.

I don't share your misgivings about the trade.  I think our top-6 upgraded fairly substantially.  And, I'm okay with Hauser and Pritchard on the bench, and I can deal with Kornet as very deep bench help.

What I don't understand is why Brad has continued to dabble in fringe NBA players in free agency.  Hopefully I'm surprised, but I think that Brad was downright neglectful in adding players who can credibly play, particularly at big man.  It's incongruent to me to make big, all-in moves via trade while not upgrading via free agency.  We let Grant walk, and haven't really replaced him.

Agreed with the last portion - and even though I'm on about this ad nauseum I really do think being reliant on Horford is a mistake, just like last season. That's the kind of guy we should be looking at as the first big off the bench, not an important starter on a championship team. He should be our David West signing with Golden State, y'know?

Agreed and it seems that they will not go with double-big in the starting lineup.

[RJ87]

Is that because Smart raised his level of play in the playoffs or because he didn't take regular season games as seriously and competitively as he should have?

There's been a lot of talk over the past few years about this team playing down to it's competition and not playing as hard as they should have. You might have just hit the nail on the head. Afterall, he was the so-called "heart and soul" of a team who's heart has been questioned quite a bit.

A few posters have raised similar points, and while I have to agree that this is possible (and remains to be seen in the new season) I'm not convinced that this is necessarily the case - the Big 3 Celtics used to play down to their competition during the regular season as well, but I don't believe you would say that the heart and soul of that team, KG, was phoning it in.

For any reasonable viewer, it's fairly clear that the lack of effort in the Jays era has always been linked to timidity, particularly on defense, when the shots weren't falling. I don't think that's something you can fairly level against Smart.

In their first season together, the big 3 won 66 games and a championship. Yes, they played down to their competition in later years but you could make the case that may have been due to relying more on Rondo who was always had consistency issues.

The lack of effort during this era to me has been on account of this team thinking they could turn it on whenever they wanted to. It's an arrogance that hasn't been earned because they haven't accomplished anything yet.

[angryguy77]

Loved Rob, but the injuries were frustrating. Still a long time left to add some depth and bodies to throw at Giannis.

The only thing that stops this team from winning it all are injuries and/or the inability to overcome moronic coaching.

This is going to be a fun season.

[Celtics4ever]

We're better upfront (in theory), we're arguably worse in the front court.

Definitely bigger as a team too.

I still would one more big, that can lean on guys go to head to head with big body types.  I am not sure Gabriele is that guy.  Al can, I am doubtful Porzingas can, Kornet can't

[Who]

I have to say I do find the team more likeable now with Jrue as opposed to Brogdon and Timelord.

Jrue is one of the easiest guys in the league to root for. I like how he plays. A team first guy. Great attitude. Effort, size, athleticism. Competiveness.

Brogdon rubbed me the wrong way. I hated seeing him criticize his teammate's defense while dogging it on D himself. That disgusted me. The same way it did when Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony did it. Defense accountability for the minions but not for me. I'm the star. Diva-attitude.

Also, I wasn't loving his style of play on offense. More of an iso-style player than a team based player. When he moved to a team style he became a limited spot up shooter type. In order to be more productive, he had to dominate the ball. Too much for my liking.

Then the injury proness. Big issue for Brogdon. Huge issue for Timelord.

It is nice to get away from those things.

It is nice to have an easy to root for player like Jrue Holiday.

[Silas]

I have to say I do find the team more likeable now with Jrue as opposed to Brogdon and Timelord.

Jrue is one of the easiest guys in the league to root for. I like how he plays. A team first guy. Great attitude. Effort, size, athleticism. Competiveness.

Brogdon rubbed me the wrong way. I hated seeing him criticize his teammate's defense while dogging it on D himself. That disgusted me. The same way it did when Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony did it. Defense accountability for the minions but not for me. I'm the star. Diva-attitude.

Also, I wasn't loving his style of play on offense. More of an iso-style player than a team based player. When he moved to a team style he became a limited spot up shooter type. In order to be more productive, he had to dominate the ball. Too much for my liking.

Then the injury proness. Big issue for Brogdon. Huge issue for Timelord.

It is nice to get away from those things.

It is nice to have an easy to root for player like Jrue Holiday.

I found it odd that Brogdon seldom smiled.  Made me wonder if he had an underlying problem with his role on the Celtics.

[No Nickname]

I have to say I do find the team more likeable now with Jrue as opposed to Brogdon and Timelord.

Jrue is one of the easiest guys in the league to root for. I like how he plays. A team first guy. Great attitude. Effort, size, athleticism. Competiveness.

Brogdon rubbed me the wrong way. I hated seeing him criticize his teammate's defense while dogging it on D himself. That disgusted me. The same way it did when Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony did it. Defense accountability for the minions but not for me. I'm the star. Diva-attitude.

Also, I wasn't loving his style of play on offense. More of an iso-style player than a team based player. When he moved to a team style he became a limited spot up shooter type. In order to be more productive, he had to dominate the ball. Too much for my liking.

Then the injury proness. Big issue for Brogdon. Huge issue for Timelord.

It is nice to get away from those things.

It is nice to have an easy to root for player like Jrue Holiday.

I found it odd that Brogdon seldom smiled.  Made me wonder if he had an underlying problem with his role on the Celtics.

Yes, he had Resting [Blank] Face, but the dude wasn't disgruntled.  You guys are reading into things way too much.

Maybe he wasn't happy when White was declared the starter without having the opportunity to compete for it.  Sure, who wouldn't be p---ed if their superior quit their job and your coworker automatically got promoted without you even being able to apply?

You all think that you wouldn't have SOME emotions?

That being said, he was in Boston getting ready for training camp.  The dude is as professional as they come.  Stop judging someone's feelings/motives... or their PRODUCTION in their job based on a facial expression.

The dude BALLED OUT last year for the Celtics.  Now all you guys are dumping on him. 

It's poor form and embarrassing.

And anyone who says "I wish he was more of a distributor" look at his last two seasons with Indiana where he avered 5.9apg in 34mpg.

And then his 3.7apg in 26 minutes with the Cs.  That's 23% fewer minutes and his APG barely dropped off.

He went from averaging an assist every .17 minutes, to one every .14 minutes with the Celtics.  But he was asked to be more of a scoring punch off the bench that we lacked the previous seasons.  And he did that with 44% 3-point shooting. You can't have your cake and eat it too. 

[gouki88]

What number will Holiday wear? 11?

Pritchard has 11.  I'm assuming #21, like he did in Milwaukee.

Bill Sharman.

Ah.  I guess that won't do.  What numbers do we have available?  The recently opened up #13 and #44 don't seem all that appealing.

I'll guess #12, then?  That was Grant, right?  And Rozier?

I would imagine 12, the flip of 21. If Davison hadn't chosen 20, that's what I would have guessed too

[gouki88]

I have to say I do find the team more likeable now with Jrue as opposed to Brogdon and Timelord.

Jrue is one of the easiest guys in the league to root for. I like how he plays. A team first guy. Great attitude. Effort, size, athleticism. Competiveness.

Brogdon rubbed me the wrong way. I hated seeing him criticize his teammate's defense while dogging it on D himself. That disgusted me. The same way it did when Amare Stoudemire or Carmelo Anthony did it. Defense accountability for the minions but not for me. I'm the star. Diva-attitude.

Also, I wasn't loving his style of play on offense. More of an iso-style player than a team based player. When he moved to a team style he became a limited spot up shooter type. In order to be more productive, he had to dominate the ball. Too much for my liking.

Then the injury proness. Big issue for Brogdon. Huge issue for Timelord.

It is nice to get away from those things.

It is nice to have an easy to root for player like Jrue Holiday.

I found it odd that Brogdon seldom smiled.  Made me wonder if he had an underlying problem with his role on the Celtics.

Yes, he had Resting [Blank] Face, but the dude wasn't disgruntled.  You guys are reading into things way too much.

Maybe he wasn't happy when White was declared the starter without having the opportunity to compete for it.  Sure, who wouldn't be p---ed if their superior quit their job and your coworker automatically got promoted without you even being able to apply?

You all think that you wouldn't have SOME emotions?

That being said, he was in Boston getting ready for training camp.  The dude is as professional as they come.  Stop judging someone's feelings/motives... or their PRODUCTION in their job based on a facial expression.

The dude BALLED OUT last year for the Celtics.  Now all you guys are dumping on him. 

It's poor form and embarrassing.

And anyone who says "I wish he was more of a distributor" look at his last two seasons with Indiana where he avered 5.9apg in 34mpg.

And then his 3.7apg in 26 minutes with the Cs.  That's 23% fewer minutes and his APG barely dropped off.

He went from averaging an assist every .17 minutes, to one every .14 minutes with the Celtics.  But he was asked to be more of a scoring punch off the bench that we lacked the previous seasons.  And he did that with 44% 3-point shooting. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You're going to some really extreme lengths to defend him. Bringing up irrelevant things he did in Indiana are odd. He's a Trail Blazer now