2023 CS Historic Draft - How's My Team?

[smokeablount]

C1: Bob Lanier (76-77)

Accolades: All-Star (All-NBA did not seem to exist), #4 MVP Voting

It was Kareem and Bill Walton at their peak who made All-NBA that year. That is why Lanier was top 5 in MVP but failed to make either All-NBA team. Kareem was 1st team as he won the MVP & Walton 2nd team as he led Portland to the title and would win the MVP next season. Lanier would miss out on All-NBA next year as well because of those two. That time Walton first team and Kareem second team. No shame in missing out to either of them.

Then Walton would get hurt and there would be opening again at center for All-NBA for Lanier but a young Moses Malone would come along and make that spot his own. So Lanier never got back in even though he was one of the top 10 players in the league year in year out during the late 1970s.

Oops! Thanks Who, I updated both posts to reflect this.

EDIT - Want to clarify- for some reason his page didn’t feature all nba voting results. It wasn’t that he didn’t make all nba, but that he wasn’t listed to receive any votes, that made me think it didn’t exist. Maybe that’s what they didn’t do then, or they didn’t publish it.

[Who]

Denver (Who):
PG: Kevin Johnson (89-90) / Gus Williams (78-79)
SG: Eddie Jones (98-99) / Rolando Blackman (84-85) / Fred Brown (76-77)
SF: Bernard King (83-84) / Bob Dandridge (77-78)
PF: Vin Baker (97-98) / Danny Manning (91-92) / Cliff Robinson (97-98)
C: Alonzo Mourning (99-00) / Jack Sikma (81-82)

Is two spacers in the starting lineup enough?  How would Mourning, Baker and King adapt to the modern game regarding jumpers that didn't extend to the 3PT line?  In this league, would there be enough space for King to operate?

Three guys here:

King

I would expect King's playing style to resemble Carmelo and Kawhi if he were playing today. In his own words, he said he played in the post because that was the playing style of the 1970s. He added the midrange shot in 1980s which he did not have in the 70s because that was the stylistic change in the 80s. Then he became one of the top midrange and long two point jump-shooters in the league in the late 80s early 90s. He used more screens. More face up and drives. He still posted but the split between post ups, midrange and long range (twos) changed. King believes he would have no problem adding a three point shot and playing in today's league. I believe him. Gym rat. Always able to adapt and add to his game.

I'd say Kawhi is the closest comparison to King in terms of playing style (offensively speaking, not defense). The level of efficiency, the shot selection, the playing to spots are all in line with King. Melo has a similar style but worse shot selection and efficiency.

I see King's style of play in the late stages of his career in Washington as more similar to the style of play he would play in today's NBA than his style of play at his peak in New York just because of how the league has changed since then.

I view him more as a slasher first and post player second. Just because of how he would have to adapt to today's league.

Alonzo

Alonzo was a good jump-shooting center. He scored around 60% of his points in the paint and 40% off of jump-shots. Most of those shots were in the 16-18 foot range but he also took shots out to 20-22 feet.

The shot he hit as a rookie to knock the Celtics out of the playoffs was one step inside the three point line at the top of the key. In his own words, when he caught the ball, the play wasn't for him but he was open and that was his shot. The shot he practiced over and over. So he broke the play and took the shot himself. Hit it. Knocked out the Celtics. That was him as a rookie. That was already one of his main shots. The 20-22 foot top of the key jumper.

I have no doubt Alonzo would shoot 3s if he played in today's NBA. That said, he'd only be a low volume three point shooter because you want him close to the paint where he can do more damage in more different ways. So only low volume.

Power Forward Slot

I am going to start Danny Manning instead of Vin Baker. Manning has better perimeter skills and can open up the floor better for KJ, King and Zo. Manning would be shooting 3s today, handling the rock and passing it. I can see him playing a similar role to Draymond Green with his passing.

Would Vin Baker shoot 3s? Probably but not a lot. His shot profile was more 70% interior 30% jump shots. His jumper was a bit up and down but useful. Maybe a bit like Anthony Davis from 3. You never quite know what you are going to get. So low volume & inconsistent 3 point shooter. More 2 point shots. And more comfortable with interior shots than jump-shots.

Also was one of those late bloomers who played guard all his life until a late growth spurt so he would've been shooting 3s as a youngster. I forget what height he was in HS. I think he was only like 6-7 when he first got to college. He was Scottie Pippen height and that was after a growth spurt late in HS. Still growing. He played guard throughout most of high school. This is why he was so comfortable handling and passing the ball. And less turnover prone than Kemp. Why Baker was better able to piece together SEA's offense and have it's offense run through him in the low post than Kemp was (error prone).

I think Baker's main asset on offense is his low post threat as a PF. Sikma can open the floor for him. I like them as a combo. Alonzo can too as he did for Larry Johnson in Charlotte. Just with KJ and King also out there who want to drive into the paint, I feel Manning enables them better than Baker does.

[Who]

“You need a rugged, we’re-not-going-to-take-any-nonsense personality on a team,” said Jack Ramsay, [Maurice] Lucas’ coach. “It’s important for your team to let it be known that you will not be pushed around, will not be intimidated.”

[Roy H.]

“You need a rugged, we’re-not-going-to-take-any-nonsense personality on a team,” said Jack Ramsay, [Maurice] Lucas’ coach. “It’s important for your team to let it be known that you will not be pushed around, will not be intimidated.”

No doubt.  I was minorly surprised to see that a lot of the "enforcer" guys from the 1990s -- Charles Oakley, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Anthony Mason -- weren't taken. 

This was one of the reasons I took Brand in the first round.  When teams played against him, they were going to be sore the next day.

When I was writing up my team presentation this year, I used a template from past CB / DKC drafts.  I found the below from 2012, showing how great Brand's defense was even after his achilles injury:

" By Tom Haberstroh-

Let me ask a simple question:

Why isn't Elton Brand a candidate for defensive player of the year?

I know what you're thinking: Wait, Elton Brand? The guy who makes $17 million to average 11 points per game and has limited mobility? That Elton Brand?

Yes, I'm talking about that Elton Brand, and here's why:

He checks off more boxes on the defensive player of the year rubric than just about any big man in the league.

Not a believer? Start at the team level. If you look at the history of the defensive player of the year vote, you'll notice a pretty obvious trend: The winner almost always hails from a top defensive team. Over the past decade, here are the ranks of the DPOY in team defensive rating, starting with the most recent: 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 1st, 11th, 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 8th.

With the exception of Marcus Camby in 2006-07 and Ben Wallace in 2001-02, you see that every DPOY winner comes from a top-5 defensive team in the league. Obviously this makes sense. This team-then-player philosophy is largely the same logic behind the MVP award as well. In that vein, the Philadelphia 76ers, unbeknownst to too many fans, remain the top defensive team in the league. Sure, the Sixers have been in a standings freefall for some time now, but blame the offense for that; their defense has ranked second in efficiency since the All-Star break. So, Brand has that going for him right off the bat.

Secondly, believe it or not, Brand has the box score stats to back up his candidacy. Brand is in the midst of a career year in defensive stops department, averaging 1.7 blocks and 1.1 steals per game. Here's the long list of players who can match Brand in those two categories: Howard and Josh Smith. That's it. You'll see Smith and Howard on the list of defensive player of the year candidates, but probably not the big man in Philadelphia.

Now, Brand might have lost a step or two after Achilles surgery, but he simply has a knack for the ball thanks to his sharp instincts and airplane-like 7-foot-5.5-inch wingspan. In fact, among NBA players, only Bismack Biyombo has a longer wingspan at Brand's height, according to DraftExpress' pre-draft measurement database. And night in and night out, his length continues to catch opposing players by surprise despite his 12-year track record in the league.

Take Tuesday, for instance. Heading into a matchup against the Sixers, Miami Heat coach Erik Spoelstra specifically wrote in the game's scouting report to beware of Brand's hands in the lane. "He's very deceptively long," Spoelstra told the media before Tuesday's game. "He's one of the best at stripping the ball, and thanks to his aesthetics, his natural gifts are very underrated." And what happened in that game? Despite the Heat's prep work, Brand got his hand on the ball three times in the Heat's first five possessions. When the final buzzer sounded, Brand had collected four steals and three blocks in just 31 minutes of action.

So, Brand has the team qualifications and the traditional box score stats on his side, but we're just getting started. Sure, Brand has his hands on the ball in the lane and at the rim, but what about his post defense?

Synergy Sports Technology, a video tracking service provided to NBA teams, tracks every possession of every game played in the NBA and slices each game into play types. One of the plays Synergy tracks is the post-up; it analyzes how many points a player allows in those situations. So where does Brand rank in points allowed on post-up plays? First. Nobody is better this season. Not Howard. Not Andrew Bynum. Not Kevin Garnett.

In fact, according to Synergy tracking, there are 39 players who have defended at least 100 post-up plays this season, and Brand ranks first in points allowed per post-up play (0.582). And it's not really close. The distance between Brand and the second-ranked player Marc Gasol (.664) is the about the same distance between Gasol and the 13th-ranked player Samuel Dalembert (.750). Opponents going against Brand in the post have shot an abysmal 31 percent on their field goals, but more importantly, Brand plays them clean, as they earn a trip to the free throw line only once every 20 tries. For reference, players going against Howard go to the line four times as often as Brand.

And as Spoelstra emphasized Tuesday, the key to Brand's defensive success is that he's wildly deceptive. Just when a post player thinks he can score on a 6-foot-9 veteran who's lost a step, Brand will extend his Go-Go-Gadget arms and distract him just enough to alter the shot without fouling. Not only that, at 280 pounds, Brand is virtually unmovable on the block. After Tuesday's game, Brand's defense prompted Chris Bosh to shake his head and groan that the 33-year-old is "like a tree stump." Indeed, the length of a tree and anchored like a stump.

How essential has Brand been to the Sixers?

First, consider that, due to Spencer Hawes injuries, the team has alternated between starting rookie LaVoy Allen and 87-year-old Tony Battie at the center slot, and it's still a top defensive team. Despite all the turnover at the center slot, Brand has posted the best on-court defensive efficiency in the NBA among players with 1,000 minutes. According to basketballvalue.com, opposing offenses have mustered just 96.1 points per 100 possessions with Brand on the floor. Underscoring his impact on the squad, the Sixers surrender three points more every 100 possessions when he steps off the floor.

Now, you might be thinking: Isn't Andre Iguodala the reason for Sixers' defensive prowess? No doubt, Iguodala has been masterful as a perimeter defender, and he probably belongs ahead of Brand in the DPOY conversation. But it should be noted that the Sixers' defense falls apart when either of them steps off the floor. When Iguodala doesn't have Brand on his side, the Sixers' defense becomes 4.6 points worse on the defensive end. Without Iguodala on the court, the Brand-led defense becomes 7.5 points less stingy. Iguodala might be Philadelphia's most essential defender, but considering all the stated credentials above, Brand isn't too far behind.

So, let's recap. Team dominance? Check. Blocks and steals? Check. Post-up effectiveness? Check. Plus-minus impact? Check. What's holding Brand back? Minutes and reputation. Because of the condensed season and his age, Brand plays just 29 minutes per game, which puts him in the same boat as Kevin Garnett. But if you're going to include Garnett or Serge Ibaka (27.3 minutes per game) as a candidate, it doesn't make sense to leave out Brand.

As for reputation, few labels are tougher to shed than the "overpaid star" label. His coach Doug Collins recently went on record to state that over his 40-year career in the league, no one has been more professional than Brand. But even lofty praise like that can't remove the stink from his near-$20 million salary. What's more, it doesn't help Brand's case that he plays for a team that hasn't been in the national consciousness since Allen Iverson retired.

Basketball Prospectus (naming Brand to the All-Defense team):

Whereas Garnett started with every physical tool possible to go with his intellect, Brand is a more unlikely defensive success story. Few big men listed at 6-9, 254 qualify as elite defenders, but Brand has taken to his role as an interior anchor under Doug Collins. As Tom Haberstroh noted for ESPN Insider a few weeks ago, Brand meets every criteria for Defensive Player of the Year. He plays for an elite defense and his Synergy numbers are outstanding (at 0.67 points per possession to roll men, he's second to Garnett, and he was second among the big men I looked at with 0.59 points allowed per post-up). Brand is a little behind Garnett in box-score defensive stats and RAPM value, but the gap between the two is narrow.

Yet with seven games left in the season, it would take a catastrophe to move Brand off the top of the charts of a handful of advanced metrics that measure defense. Notably, Brand is ninth in defensive win shares, which measures the number of wins a player contributes with his defense.

More impressive, Brand is third overall in the NBA in defensive rating behind only Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard. Perhaps a more subjective statistic than win shares, defensive rating is an estimate of the player's points allowed per 100 defensive possessions. In that category Brand’s 94.8 is slightly behind Howard at 94.7 and Garnett at 94.3.

“For us to be where we are defensively, a big part of that is can you defend the paint and can you rebound the ball,” coach Doug Collins said. “And E.B. is a big part of that for us.”

“He protects the rim, but he doesn’t block a lot of shots. Yet, he’s matched up with Blake Griffin and he’s been matched up with Dwight Howard and blocked some of his shots,” said veteran Tony Battie, the only player on the Sixers older (36 to 33) and with more experience (14 seasons to 13) than Brand. “He’s not afraid to foul anybody. Guys will look at him and say, ‘You know what, I’m not going to be able to take the ball in there and dunk it on Elton, because he’s going to foul me.’”

[Moving Brand in the post] is like moving a tree stump.

Getting compared to KG even after his mobility and jumping ability was sapped?  That's pretty high praise.  Now, imagine that same guy with a healthy body, like he had in 2006.  He was blocking shots and bruising those who attempted to go into the post.

[Donoghus]

I suspect that if this thing was 15 rounds, you would've seen a whole run on enforcers & 3 point specialists in the last round or two.

[Roy H.]

I suspect that if this thing was 15 rounds, you would've seen a whole run on enforcers & 3 point specialists in the last round or two.

I think that's right.  I'm sure almost everybody was considering whether they'd take Kyle Korver or Steve Kerr.

I obviously went the "specialist" route in rounds 11th and 12th, thinking that neither would see heavy rotation minutes in general.  I figured I had enough enforcers so I'd go with lights out shooting.

But next time, 15 rounds for sure.  It would be interesting to see if teams just went straight BPA, or as you suggested, focused on filling in specialist roles.

In that context, are guys like Robert Horry and Bruce Bowen everyday players in this league, or do they only play in special situations?  Who are some of the others?

[theswitch]

I was oh so close to taking Mase over Kiki. That guy was a beast.

[Roy H.]

I was oh so close to taking Mase over Kiki. That guy was a beast.

Plus, the best haircut in the league back in the day.

[Who]

I was oh so close to taking Mase over Kiki. That guy was a beast.

I was listening to an interview with George Karl and Sam Cassell on a podcast called forgotten seasons where they were talking about their 2001 Bucks team and then also briefly the 2002 Bucks team with Anthony Mason.

One of the unexpected things was how highly both guys talked about Scott Williams on that 2001 Bucks team. They described him as essential. He just made things work on both ends. He had that toughness to rough up people. That winning spirit / knowledge from his Bulls days. But most of all it was his midrange jump-shot which they described as "automatic" which was key to Cassell's PnR game. Scott Williams was their only interior big man who could hit the jump shot. So he maintained the defense while enabling the offense. When they went small with Tim Thomas, they got more offense but lost their interior toughness and defense.

Anyway, they sign Mason in the offseason. Mason > S Williams or at least so George Karl thought. Clear upgrade was his thinking. Mase can be the final piece of the puzzle and get them to the title. Worked out the opposite way. Scott Williams was a huge loss for Milwaukee and they were never able to replace him while Mason never fitted in. It was a downgrade. Karl wanted to trade Mason but the owner refused to let him since Karl talked him into acquiring him (at big cost I think). The owner "said make it work" which forced them to stick with Mason and destroyed the whole Bucks team instead of letting Karl trade him and get back to their 2001 chemistry.

It was interesting when Karl and Cassell were asked about the chemistry and why it did not work. They talked about Mason and described him as a "confrontational guy". A guy who was always complaining, always criticial of others, always someone elses fault. A difficult guy to deal with. But even more so for that Bucks team because their players were not wired like that. They were not guys like G Payton and S Kemp who got after each other all the time. They were quiet and non-confrontational. So it was like water and oil. It poisoned the whole locker room.

It was an interesting podcast. I had never heard that account of the locker room dynamics on that Bucks team before. Nor have I ever heard such praise of Scott Williams! That was unexpected too!

[Roy H.]

It was interesting when Karl and Cassell were asked about the chemistry and why it did not work. They talked about Mason and described him as a "confrontational guy". A guy who was always complaining, always criticial of others, always someone elses fault. A difficult guy to deal with.

Interestingly, that description fits George Karl, too.

[Moranis]

I suspect that if this thing was 15 rounds, you would've seen a whole run on enforcers & 3 point specialists in the last round or two.

I think that's right.  I'm sure almost everybody was considering whether they'd take Kyle Korver or Steve Kerr.

I obviously went the "specialist" route in rounds 11th and 12th, thinking that neither would see heavy rotation minutes in general.  I figured I had enough enforcers so I'd go with lights out shooting.

But next time, 15 rounds for sure.  It would be interesting to see if teams just went straight BPA, or as you suggested, focused on filling in specialist roles.

In that context, are guys like Robert Horry and Bruce Bowen everyday players in this league, or do they only play in special situations?  Who are some of the others?

Bowen is a situational 3 and D for me.  Probably will play every game, but not many minutes most nights. 

[Who]

I've been watching a trio of Iguodala era Denver Nuggets games over the last couple of days. You forget how much he used to be to watch. Or at least I do.

The consummate team player.

[Roy H.]

I've been watching a trio of Iguodala era Denver Nuggets games over the last couple of days. You forget how much he used to be to watch. Or at least I do.

The consummate team player.

I lived in South Jersey, right outside of Philly, during the Iggy and Jrue years.  I get the thought behind "the process", but I would have never broken up those two.  They had two guys who were great citizens and teammates who loved to defend and were good scorers, too.  And, they had great chemistry.  And then Brand played with them for a couple of years, although he was past his prime.  Still an awesome defender, though.

But yeah, at first I thought I was reaching for Iggy in the third round just because he was a must for my binkie team.  In hindsight, though, I think the pick was justified there.  I remember in past drafts, there were certain players where I asked "is it possible to build a successful team with this player as a starter?"  Monta Ellis was like that. 

Iguodala is the opposite:  he can start with basically any other four players and make them more successful.

[gouki88]

I've been watching a trio of Iguodala era Denver Nuggets games over the last couple of days. You forget how much he used to be to watch. Or at least I do.

The consummate team player.

I lived in South Jersey, right outside of Philly, during the Iggy and Jrue years.  I get the thought behind "the process", but I would have never broken up those two.  They had two guys who were great citizens and teammates who loved to defend and were good scorers, too.  And, they had great chemistry.  And then Brand played with them for a couple of years, although he was past his prime.  Still an awesome defender, though.

But yeah, at first I thought I was reaching for Iggy in the third round just because he was a must for my binkie team.  In hindsight, though, I think the pick was justified there.  I remember in past drafts, there were certain players where I asked "is it possible to build a successful team with this player as a starter?"  Monta Ellis was like that. 

Iguodala is the opposite:  he can start with basically any other four players and make them more successful.

I think with Iguodala, a lot of his peak is kind of forgotten because of how long his post-prime was whilst at the Warriors. Still a great defender at GSW, but not the all-round weapon he was in Philly. Like a mini-Pippen

[Roy H.]

I've been watching a trio of Iguodala era Denver Nuggets games over the last couple of days. You forget how much he used to be to watch. Or at least I do.

The consummate team player.

I lived in South Jersey, right outside of Philly, during the Iggy and Jrue years.  I get the thought behind "the process", but I would have never broken up those two.  They had two guys who were great citizens and teammates who loved to defend and were good scorers, too.  And, they had great chemistry.  And then Brand played with them for a couple of years, although he was past his prime.  Still an awesome defender, though.

But yeah, at first I thought I was reaching for Iggy in the third round just because he was a must for my binkie team.  In hindsight, though, I think the pick was justified there.  I remember in past drafts, there were certain players where I asked "is it possible to build a successful team with this player as a starter?"  Monta Ellis was like that. 

Iguodala is the opposite:  he can start with basically any other four players and make them more successful.

I think with Iguodala, a lot of his peak is kind of forgotten because of how long his post-prime was whilst at the Warriors. Still a great defender at GSW, but not the all-round weapon he was in Philly. Like a mini-Pippen

I think that's right.  And, even in those Golden State years, he was such a key part of the "death" lineup and in shutting down guys like Harden and limiting Lebron.  His Finals MVP was the defense I've seen somebody play on LBJ.