Chris Mannix: Worried about Porzingis

[Moranis]

Our stars' skillsets are going to dictate how we play, there's just no way around that. I would love having more talent that actually played with ball movement and unselfishness and scoring without isolation/ball in hand, but we simply don't have the personnel. If you look at most of the "stars" around the league, a lot of them are scorers who need the ball. True superduperstars that make their teammates better are rare.

They went for the talent that was available. Porzingis was available for an OK price. The risk is you're committing for at least two years to him, but the alternative risk is Horford is too old and Rob can't take a true starter's load + responsibility due to health. When The Celtics let themselves be outbid for Horford, they had to get by with a frontcourt of Theis and Thompson for two seasons and it simply wasn't good enough. They even were playing Grant as a smallball 5! Enes Kanter was playing backup minutes as well. My point is, there was also a risk in just staying put or signing a mediocre stopgap-type player.

I don't think that is actually true, but even if it was, Who's point seems to be that your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players can't be that way (and Rob is a worse play maker than all of them).  If your star is a bit selfish you can make it work, but you need complimentary pieces to that star.  That has been the issue with Tatum and Brown collectively for years.  Brown doesn't compliment Tatum all that well.  He is basically just a lesser version across the board, instead of a supporting piece.  If Tatum was like Lebron as a playmaker it wouldn't matter as much, but Tatum is much more in the Durant style of playmaker, good enough, but not elite, so those guys are at their best when they actually have elite playmakers next to them.

its such a lazy narrative to just say Brown  doesn't fit with tatum. The body of success just doesn't bear it out. They made game 7 of the ECF and the finals last year. and the one year he was injured they got bounced in the first. SO they made it in spite of Brown? when do you hear of an unbalanced grouping making it that far. theres no evidence that having Brown is what held them back from additional success.

heck, we likely get bounced by the sixers in the 2nd round with how Tatum played in most of that series if we didn't have Brown to hold down the fort offensively.

It isn't lazy at all. I've gone through the advanced numbers, stats, record, etc. for years on here.  There is plenty of evidence that Brown has almost no impact on how well the team does and that is with just removing him and not replacing him.  I had these same arguments when Irving was here as well.  Just because a player is talented doesn't mean he is a good fit.  Talent can take a team a long way, but Boston has lost in the playoffs the last 2 years when they've had more talent and were favored. I'd posit, that a better fitting team and that doesn't happen.

[Neurotic Guy]

Our stars' skillsets are going to dictate how we play, there's just no way around that. I would love having more talent that actually played with ball movement and unselfishness and scoring without isolation/ball in hand, but we simply don't have the personnel. If you look at most of the "stars" around the league, a lot of them are scorers who need the ball. True superduperstars that make their teammates better are rare.

They went for the talent that was available. Porzingis was available for an OK price. The risk is you're committing for at least two years to him, but the alternative risk is Horford is too old and Rob can't take a true starter's load + responsibility due to health. When The Celtics let themselves be outbid for Horford, they had to get by with a frontcourt of Theis and Thompson for two seasons and it simply wasn't good enough. They even were playing Grant as a smallball 5! Enes Kanter was playing backup minutes as well. My point is, there was also a risk in just staying put or signing a mediocre stopgap-type player.

I don't think that is actually true, but even if it was, Who's point seems to be that your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players can't be that way (and Rob is a worse play maker than all of them).  If your star is a bit selfish you can make it work, but you need complimentary pieces to that star.  That has been the issue with Tatum and Brown collectively for years.  Brown doesn't compliment Tatum all that well.  He is basically just a lesser version across the board, instead of a supporting piece.  If Tatum was like Lebron as a playmaker it wouldn't matter as much, but Tatum is much more in the Durant style of playmaker, good enough, but not elite, so those guys are at their best when they actually have elite playmakers next to them.

its such a lazy narrative to just say Brown  doesn't fit with tatum. The body of success just doesn't bear it out. They made game 7 of the ECF and the finals last year. and the one year he was injured they got bounced in the first. SO they made it in spite of Brown? when do you hear of an unbalanced grouping making it that far. theres no evidence that having Brown is what held them back from additional success.

heck, we likely get bounced by the sixers in the 2nd round with how Tatum played in most of that series if we didn't have Brown to hold down the fort offensively.

It isn't lazy at all. I've gone through the advanced numbers, stats, record, etc. for years on here.  There is plenty of evidence that Brown has almost no impact on how well the team does and that is with just removing him and not replacing him.  I had these same arguments when Irving was here as well.  Just because a player is talented doesn't mean he is a good fit.  Talent can take a team a long way, but Boston has lost in the playoffs the last 2 years when they've had more talent and were favored. I'd posit, that a better fitting team and that doesn't happen.

Absolutely can’t wait to see the offense with the Jays, Porzingis, and White at the 1.   

[Moranis]

Our stars' skillsets are going to dictate how we play, there's just no way around that. I would love having more talent that actually played with ball movement and unselfishness and scoring without isolation/ball in hand, but we simply don't have the personnel. If you look at most of the "stars" around the league, a lot of them are scorers who need the ball. True superduperstars that make their teammates better are rare.

They went for the talent that was available. Porzingis was available for an OK price. The risk is you're committing for at least two years to him, but the alternative risk is Horford is too old and Rob can't take a true starter's load + responsibility due to health. When The Celtics let themselves be outbid for Horford, they had to get by with a frontcourt of Theis and Thompson for two seasons and it simply wasn't good enough. They even were playing Grant as a smallball 5! Enes Kanter was playing backup minutes as well. My point is, there was also a risk in just staying put or signing a mediocre stopgap-type player.

I don't think that is actually true, but even if it was, Who's point seems to be that your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players can't be that way (and Rob is a worse play maker than all of them).  If your star is a bit selfish you can make it work, but you need complimentary pieces to that star.  That has been the issue with Tatum and Brown collectively for years.  Brown doesn't compliment Tatum all that well.  He is basically just a lesser version across the board, instead of a supporting piece.  If Tatum was like Lebron as a playmaker it wouldn't matter as much, but Tatum is much more in the Durant style of playmaker, good enough, but not elite, so those guys are at their best when they actually have elite playmakers next to them.

its such a lazy narrative to just say Brown  doesn't fit with tatum. The body of success just doesn't bear it out. They made game 7 of the ECF and the finals last year. and the one year he was injured they got bounced in the first. SO they made it in spite of Brown? when do you hear of an unbalanced grouping making it that far. theres no evidence that having Brown is what held them back from additional success.

heck, we likely get bounced by the sixers in the 2nd round with how Tatum played in most of that series if we didn't have Brown to hold down the fort offensively.

It isn't lazy at all. I've gone through the advanced numbers, stats, record, etc. for years on here.  There is plenty of evidence that Brown has almost no impact on how well the team does and that is with just removing him and not replacing him.  I had these same arguments when Irving was here as well.  Just because a player is talented doesn't mean he is a good fit.  Talent can take a team a long way, but Boston has lost in the playoffs the last 2 years when they've had more talent and were favored. I'd posit, that a better fitting team and that doesn't happen.

Absolutely can’t wait to see the offense with the Jays, Porzingis, and White at the 1.   

I think Boston will be better this year mostly because Smart isn't around to play hero ball, but I do.have concerns about fit being the difference in a playoff series.  Boston has not ever optimally built around Tatum, but Stevens has definitely been trying to do so much more than Ainge ever did.  He just won't pull the trigger on the move he really should do.

[green_bballers13]

Our stars' skillsets are going to dictate how we play, there's just no way around that. I would love having more talent that actually played with ball movement and unselfishness and scoring without isolation/ball in hand, but we simply don't have the personnel. If you look at most of the "stars" around the league, a lot of them are scorers who need the ball. True superduperstars that make their teammates better are rare.

They went for the talent that was available. Porzingis was available for an OK price. The risk is you're committing for at least two years to him, but the alternative risk is Horford is too old and Rob can't take a true starter's load + responsibility due to health. When The Celtics let themselves be outbid for Horford, they had to get by with a frontcourt of Theis and Thompson for two seasons and it simply wasn't good enough. They even were playing Grant as a smallball 5! Enes Kanter was playing backup minutes as well. My point is, there was also a risk in just staying put or signing a mediocre stopgap-type player.

I don't think that is actually true, but even if it was, Who's point seems to be that your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players can't be that way (and Rob is a worse play maker than all of them).  If your star is a bit selfish you can make it work, but you need complimentary pieces to that star.  That has been the issue with Tatum and Brown collectively for years.  Brown doesn't compliment Tatum all that well.  He is basically just a lesser version across the board, instead of a supporting piece.  If Tatum was like Lebron as a playmaker it wouldn't matter as much, but Tatum is much more in the Durant style of playmaker, good enough, but not elite, so those guys are at their best when they actually have elite playmakers next to them.

its such a lazy narrative to just say Brown  doesn't fit with tatum. The body of success just doesn't bear it out. They made game 7 of the ECF and the finals last year. and the one year he was injured they got bounced in the first. SO they made it in spite of Brown? when do you hear of an unbalanced grouping making it that far. theres no evidence that having Brown is what held them back from additional success.

heck, we likely get bounced by the sixers in the 2nd round with how Tatum played in most of that series if we didn't have Brown to hold down the fort offensively.

It isn't lazy at all. I've gone through the advanced numbers, stats, record, etc. for years on here.  There is plenty of evidence that Brown has almost no impact on how well the team does and that is with just removing him and not replacing him.  I had these same arguments when Irving was here as well.  Just because a player is talented doesn't mean he is a good fit.  Talent can take a team a long way, but Boston has lost in the playoffs the last 2 years when they've had more talent and were favored. I'd posit, that a better fitting team and that doesn't happen.

Absolutely can’t wait to see the offense with the Jays, Porzingis, and White at the 1.   

I think Boston will be better this year mostly because Smart isn't around to play hero ball, but I do.have concerns about fit being the difference in a playoff series.  Boston has not ever optimally built around Tatum, but Stevens has definitely been trying to do so much more than Ainge ever did.  He just won't pull the trigger on the move he really should do.

Are you recommending that he trade JB for a player that wasn't a first or second team all NBA player? I'm glad he hasn't made such an egregious error.

[Neurotic Guy]

Our stars' skillsets are going to dictate how we play, there's just no way around that. I would love having more talent that actually played with ball movement and unselfishness and scoring without isolation/ball in hand, but we simply don't have the personnel. If you look at most of the "stars" around the league, a lot of them are scorers who need the ball. True superduperstars that make their teammates better are rare.

They went for the talent that was available. Porzingis was available for an OK price. The risk is you're committing for at least two years to him, but the alternative risk is Horford is too old and Rob can't take a true starter's load + responsibility due to health. When The Celtics let themselves be outbid for Horford, they had to get by with a frontcourt of Theis and Thompson for two seasons and it simply wasn't good enough. They even were playing Grant as a smallball 5! Enes Kanter was playing backup minutes as well. My point is, there was also a risk in just staying put or signing a mediocre stopgap-type player.

I don't think that is actually true, but even if it was, Who's point seems to be that your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players can't be that way (and Rob is a worse play maker than all of them).  If your star is a bit selfish you can make it work, but you need complimentary pieces to that star.  That has been the issue with Tatum and Brown collectively for years.  Brown doesn't compliment Tatum all that well.  He is basically just a lesser version across the board, instead of a supporting piece.  If Tatum was like Lebron as a playmaker it wouldn't matter as much, but Tatum is much more in the Durant style of playmaker, good enough, but not elite, so those guys are at their best when they actually have elite playmakers next to them.

its such a lazy narrative to just say Brown  doesn't fit with tatum. The body of success just doesn't bear it out. They made game 7 of the ECF and the finals last year. and the one year he was injured they got bounced in the first. SO they made it in spite of Brown? when do you hear of an unbalanced grouping making it that far. theres no evidence that having Brown is what held them back from additional success.

heck, we likely get bounced by the sixers in the 2nd round with how Tatum played in most of that series if we didn't have Brown to hold down the fort offensively.

It isn't lazy at all. I've gone through the advanced numbers, stats, record, etc. for years on here.  There is plenty of evidence that Brown has almost no impact on how well the team does and that is with just removing him and not replacing him.  I had these same arguments when Irving was here as well.  Just because a player is talented doesn't mean he is a good fit.  Talent can take a team a long way, but Boston has lost in the playoffs the last 2 years when they've had more talent and were favored. I'd posit, that a better fitting team and that doesn't happen.

Absolutely can’t wait to see the offense with the Jays, Porzingis, and White at the 1.   

I think Boston will be better this year mostly because Smart isn't around to play hero ball, but I do.have concerns about fit being the difference in a playoff series.  Boston has not ever optimally built around Tatum, but Stevens has definitely been trying to do so much more than Ainge ever did.  He just won't pull the trigger on the move he really should do.

Maybe Brad didn’t impact ‘fit’ when he traded Smart for Porzingis - significantly changing two starting lineup positions (40%).  But the other way to look at it is - he did. 

[cman88]

i'm not sure exactly how KP doesnt "fit" with Tatum/Brown when Al Horford fit with them...

he's essentially a younger/taller Al horford skills wise offensively. An argument can be made that Al Horfords offensive decline was a large reason we didn't go farther than we could have. Lately he's just been relegated to a 3 point guy and wasnt even able to hit those in the playoffs.

A big that can do those things kind of neutralizes Miami's zone defense doesnt it?

Although I do agree that White may play his "role" better than smart did. just by virtue of him knowing his place in the rotation and staying in that role and not doing too much.

[W8ting2McHale]

Once the season starts the Celtics will have opposing teams worried about Porzingis instead of the talking heads.

[Surferdad]

i'm not sure exactly how KP doesnt "fit" with Tatum/Brown when Al Horford fit with them...

he's essentially a younger/taller Al horford skills wise offensively. An argument can be made that Al Horfords offensive decline was a large reason we didn't go farther than we could have. Lately he's just been relegated to a 3 point guy and wasnt even able to hit those in the playoffs.

A big that can do those things kind of neutralizes Miami's zone defense doesnt it?

Although I do agree that White may play his "role" better than smart did. just by virtue of him knowing his place in the rotation and staying in that role and not doing too much.

I just posted a similar sentiment in the "...one Elite Passer away..." thread. Smart was frequently trying to do too much including improbable passes that became turnovers. In addition, White will have 3 elite offensive targets to pass to. Smart didn't have that luxury,

[Moranis]

Our stars' skillsets are going to dictate how we play, there's just no way around that. I would love having more talent that actually played with ball movement and unselfishness and scoring without isolation/ball in hand, but we simply don't have the personnel. If you look at most of the "stars" around the league, a lot of them are scorers who need the ball. True superduperstars that make their teammates better are rare.

They went for the talent that was available. Porzingis was available for an OK price. The risk is you're committing for at least two years to him, but the alternative risk is Horford is too old and Rob can't take a true starter's load + responsibility due to health. When The Celtics let themselves be outbid for Horford, they had to get by with a frontcourt of Theis and Thompson for two seasons and it simply wasn't good enough. They even were playing Grant as a smallball 5! Enes Kanter was playing backup minutes as well. My point is, there was also a risk in just staying put or signing a mediocre stopgap-type player.

I don't think that is actually true, but even if it was, Who's point seems to be that your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players can't be that way (and Rob is a worse play maker than all of them).  If your star is a bit selfish you can make it work, but you need complimentary pieces to that star.  That has been the issue with Tatum and Brown collectively for years.  Brown doesn't compliment Tatum all that well.  He is basically just a lesser version across the board, instead of a supporting piece.  If Tatum was like Lebron as a playmaker it wouldn't matter as much, but Tatum is much more in the Durant style of playmaker, good enough, but not elite, so those guys are at their best when they actually have elite playmakers next to them.

its such a lazy narrative to just say Brown  doesn't fit with tatum. The body of success just doesn't bear it out. They made game 7 of the ECF and the finals last year. and the one year he was injured they got bounced in the first. SO they made it in spite of Brown? when do you hear of an unbalanced grouping making it that far. theres no evidence that having Brown is what held them back from additional success.

heck, we likely get bounced by the sixers in the 2nd round with how Tatum played in most of that series if we didn't have Brown to hold down the fort offensively.

It isn't lazy at all. I've gone through the advanced numbers, stats, record, etc. for years on here.  There is plenty of evidence that Brown has almost no impact on how well the team does and that is with just removing him and not replacing him.  I had these same arguments when Irving was here as well.  Just because a player is talented doesn't mean he is a good fit.  Talent can take a team a long way, but Boston has lost in the playoffs the last 2 years when they've had more talent and were favored. I'd posit, that a better fitting team and that doesn't happen.

Absolutely can’t wait to see the offense with the Jays, Porzingis, and White at the 1.   

I think Boston will be better this year mostly because Smart isn't around to play hero ball, but I do.have concerns about fit being the difference in a playoff series.  Boston has not ever optimally built around Tatum, but Stevens has definitely been trying to do so much more than Ainge ever did.  He just won't pull the trigger on the move he really should do.

Maybe Brad didn’t impact ‘fit’ when he traded Smart for Porzingis - significantly changing two starting lineup positions (40%).  But the other way to look at it is - he did.

No I think he did. Zinger  is a better fit than Smart.  Bringing back Horford, acquiring White and Brogdon, trading Smart, are all moves designed around fit with Tatum.  Brown though is not a good fit. He is the one move I think Stevens needs to make but hasn't pulled the trigger on to really set Boston up.  I suspect that happens next summer if Boston flames out of the playoffs again this season.  Perhaps a Garland for Brown swap happens then with the Cavs getting Brown to get Mitchell to re-sign, you know after the Cavs underwhelm again.

[cman88]

i'm not sure exactly how KP doesnt "fit" with Tatum/Brown when Al Horford fit with them...

he's essentially a younger/taller Al horford skills wise offensively. An argument can be made that Al Horfords offensive decline was a large reason we didn't go farther than we could have. Lately he's just been relegated to a 3 point guy and wasnt even able to hit those in the playoffs.

A big that can do those things kind of neutralizes Miami's zone defense doesnt it?

Although I do agree that White may play his "role" better than smart did. just by virtue of him knowing his place in the rotation and staying in that role and not doing too much.

I just posted a similar sentiment in the "...one Elite Passer away..." thread. Smart was frequently trying to do too much including improbable passes that became turnovers. In addition, White will have 3 elite offensive targets to pass to. Smart didn't have that luxury,

I also think its easier for someone like White to accept their role coming into a team with an already set hierarchy. Its tougher for someone like smart IMO who was the longest tenured celtic. So I think sometimes he did too much. Or the Jay's deferred too much to him.