First Legitimate Big 3 for Celtics Since 2012?

[Neurotic Guy]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

I understand your point of view, but mine is that both White and Brogdon are better distributors than Smart.   Smart can thread some needles and alley a good oop, but he also takes unnecessary risks and often does so at very inopportune times.  Not to mention his outside shot selection is not good.  The best parts of Smart’s game IMO are his inspired defense (which occurred less often in 22-23) and his drives to the hoop where he’a been very effective short-mid game.

Overall in the PG role, give me White (1), Brogdon (2), and then Smart.

[BASS_THUMPER]

Leon Powe



Eddie House



Tony Battie

my fav 3...

we didnt win alot but we showed more heart than this 2023 squad....

*sippin*

[BASS_THUMPER]

for our member Walker Wiggle




*sippin*

*sippin*

[gouki88]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

Calling Smart a "real point guard" is a stretch. A combo guard who could pass a bit? Yes. But we're not talking CP3 or Rondo.

Smart is a combo guard because of his defensive skills, but offensively he is a better creator or playmaker than all other guys. A real point guard doesn't mean an elite one. With time he turned to an average to good level of creator, gestionary and passer for a point guard. Regularity problems. Brogdon is more of a shooter, White a versatile 2, Pritchard not at the same level nor a great passer and Davison a G leaguer for now. We need a PG and a very good one. Then I might understand a little more the moves.

Whatever I will always ask me how much all this is due to Mazzula poor gestion against Philly and the 1 trhee Heat games.

Smart was quite a mediocre playmaker besides the first half of last season

[ozgod]

All depends how much we get out of KP. Let's hope he doesn't pull a Hayward and get injured at the start of the season.

[cman88]

thing is, KP played on a horrible team so I dont think most here paid attention to him. I certainly didn't so when I heard the trade I didn't think too much of it

but then I looked at his stats 23.2 ppg, 8.4 rebounds per game while shooting 49% from the field and 38% from 3....at 7 3. and then by all metrics he was one of the best bigs in the NBA last year. Then you look at the defensive stats and he was solid there.

So, its kind of adding a different dimension to Tatum/Brown and a legit big 3. he can stretch the floor, but he also can play in the post. its a similar dynamic (not necessarily saying talent wise) to Lebron/Wade/Bosh. you have your SF who the offense should run through, an athletic shooting guard who might not be the "greatest" shooter but is an elite athlete. and a Big who can shoot and also play in the post.

and lets not forget that Brogdon is still a 20ppg scorer the 2 years in Indy before he took a bench role with Boston.

[Muzzy66]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

Calling Smart a "real point guard" is a stretch. A combo guard who could pass a bit? Yes. But we're not talking CP3 or Rondo.

Smart is a combo guard because of his defensive skills, but offensively he is a better creator or playmaker than all other guys. A real point guard doesn't mean an elite one. With time he turned to an average to good level of creator, gestionary and passer for a point guard. Regularity problems. Brogdon is more of a shooter, White a versatile 2, Pritchard not at the same level nor a great passer and Davison a G leaguer for now. We need a PG and a very good one. Then I might understand a little more the moves.

Whatever I will always ask me how much all this is due to Mazzula poor gestion against Philly and the 1 trhee Heat games.

Below are the career Assist:TO ratios of our four guards from last season:

* Marcus Smart: 2.42
* Malcolm Brogdon: 2.71
* Derrick White: 2.9
* Payton Pritchard: 2.42

Now here is the career Assist % of all four players:

* Marcus Smart: 21.6%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 23.5%
* Derrick White: 20.3%
* Payton Pritchard: 15.9%

And finally the turnover rate of all four:

* Marcus Smart: 15.3%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 11.3%
* Derrick White: 11.4%
* Payton Pritchard: 11.1%

Looking at that data it seems to me that Brogdon is the cloest thing we have to a pure point guard.  He has the highest career AST rate of this group and the lowest TO rate.  Looks like White is a very close second, with an AST rate only slihgly lower then Smart, but a significantly lower turnover rate.  Finally Smart would be 3rd, followed by Pritchard. 

If you go off basic AST/TO ratio then White is first, followed by Brogdon, wiht Smart and Pritchard finishign equal 3rd. 

Either way I'm not seeing any statiistcal evidence to suggest that Smart is a better pure PG then Brogdon and White - quite the contrary actually.  Out of our four main "point guards" we had last season Smart had the highest turnover percentage, the equal lowest TS% and the lowest FT% - making him the least stable/reliable and most volatile guard in that rotation offensively. 

All data I can see implies that losing Smart and giving those minutes to White/Brogdon should bring more stability and consistency to the team - which is something this team desperately needs. 

[Moranis]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

Calling Smart a "real point guard" is a stretch. A combo guard who could pass a bit? Yes. But we're not talking CP3 or Rondo.

Smart is a combo guard because of his defensive skills, but offensively he is a better creator or playmaker than all other guys. A real point guard doesn't mean an elite one. With time he turned to an average to good level of creator, gestionary and passer for a point guard. Regularity problems. Brogdon is more of a shooter, White a versatile 2, Pritchard not at the same level nor a great passer and Davison a G leaguer for now. We need a PG and a very good one. Then I might understand a little more the moves.

Whatever I will always ask me how much all this is due to Mazzula poor gestion against Philly and the 1 trhee Heat games.

Below are the career Assist:TO ratios of our four guards from last season:

* Marcus Smart: 2.42
* Malcolm Brogdon: 2.71
* Derrick White: 2.9
* Payton Pritchard: 2.42

Now here is the career Assist % of all four players:

* Marcus Smart: 21.6%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 23.5%
* Derrick White: 20.3%
* Payton Pritchard: 15.9%

And finally the turnover rate of all four:

* Marcus Smart: 15.3%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 11.3%
* Derrick White: 11.4%
* Payton Pritchard: 11.1%

Looking at that data it seems to me that Brogdon is the cloest thing we have to a pure point guard.  He has the highest career AST rate of this group and the lowest TO rate.  Looks like White is a very close second, with an AST rate only slihgly lower then Smart, but a significantly lower turnover rate.  Finally Smart would be 3rd, followed by Pritchard. 

If you go off basic AST/TO ratio then White is first, followed by Brogdon, wiht Smart and Pritchard finishign equal 3rd. 

Either way I'm not seeing any statiistcal evidence to suggest that Smart is a better pure PG then Brogdon and White - quite the contrary actually.  Out of our four main "point guards" we had last season Smart had the highest turnover percentage, the equal lowest TS% and the lowest FT% - making him the least stable/reliable and most volatile guard in that rotation offensively. 

All data I can see implies that losing Smart and giving those minutes to White/Brogdon should bring more stability and consistency to the team - which is something this team desperately needs.

Smart is a much better ball handler.  Much more able to handle the ball in traffic.  He is just inefficient, makes poor decisions, and shoots way too much, which undermines his more positive skills.

[footey]

Brogdon averaged 7.1 assists per game his first year in Indy. I’d like to see more of that guy.

[Rikibellevie]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

Calling Smart a "real point guard" is a stretch. A combo guard who could pass a bit? Yes. But we're not talking CP3 or Rondo.

Smart is a combo guard because of his defensive skills, but offensively he is a better creator or playmaker than all other guys. A real point guard doesn't mean an elite one. With time he turned to an average to good level of creator, gestionary and passer for a point guard. Regularity problems. Brogdon is more of a shooter, White a versatile 2, Pritchard not at the same level nor a great passer and Davison a G leaguer for now. We need a PG and a very good one. Then I might understand a little more the moves.

Whatever I will always ask me how much all this is due to Mazzula poor gestion against Philly and the 1 trhee Heat games.

Below are the career Assist:TO ratios of our four guards from last season:

* Marcus Smart: 2.42
* Malcolm Brogdon: 2.71
* Derrick White: 2.9
* Payton Pritchard: 2.42

Now here is the career Assist % of all four players:

* Marcus Smart: 21.6%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 23.5%
* Derrick White: 20.3%
* Payton Pritchard: 15.9%

And finally the turnover rate of all four:

* Marcus Smart: 15.3%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 11.3%
* Derrick White: 11.4%
* Payton Pritchard: 11.1%

Looking at that data it seems to me that Brogdon is the cloest thing we have to a pure point guard.  He has the highest career AST rate of this group and the lowest TO rate.  Looks like White is a very close second, with an AST rate only slihgly lower then Smart, but a significantly lower turnover rate.  Finally Smart would be 3rd, followed by Pritchard. 

If you go off basic AST/TO ratio then White is first, followed by Brogdon, wiht Smart and Pritchard finishign equal 3rd. 

Either way I'm not seeing any statiistcal evidence to suggest that Smart is a better pure PG then Brogdon and White - quite the contrary actually.  Out of our four main "point guards" we had last season Smart had the highest turnover percentage, the equal lowest TS% and the lowest FT% - making him the least stable/reliable and most volatile guard in that rotation offensively. 

All data I can see implies that losing Smart and giving those minutes to White/Brogdon should bring more stability and consistency to the team - which is something this team desperately needs.

Smart is a much better ball handler.  Much more able to handle the ball in traffic.  He is just inefficient, makes poor decisions, and shoots way too much, which undermines his more positive skills.

This is why I said offensively he is more of a point guard, he can be more creative off the dribble to pass, he opens more breach than a Brogdon, who mostly try to find the 3 after the pick wich is great as a 6 man... But rythm and pace will suffer with him as the titulary. I also thing Brogdon is more heavy (even if Smart isn't flash), not even saying he will miss a part of next season. Plus he mediaticly was on the trade block.
White is a versatile SG, he made more than 3 assists per game one time in his career 2 in PO's. He is can be very good at almost everything, incredibly versatile esp defensively. But not the 1st ballhandler of a contender team, esp with the low IQ of Brown at the 2?
Whatever I don't understand how most of you say OK ourroster is better balanced. No.  White will be our PG and Brogdon/Pritchard our subs and it is OK. Smart-Brogdon were OK in classic PG abilities, because they were 2 and because White solidify that at the 2. Tatum improving was also a big part.
This trade MAY give us a long term option at the 5 (and some playing time with 2 bigs, even if with Mazz not sure). But our ballhandling, ball circulation and even decision making, are worst now.

Another big trade is coming to take a PG or I don't understand anything. If not we will regret Smart not only because we loved this loyal and hustle guy, but because of his talent, ironicaly more offensively than defensively. We can find a guy with better PG ability than him of course. But we have to.

[Who]

I don't know how people imagine we will have better players and team decision making, passing when we loose our only real point guard. Our best passer in A/TO rate in PO's. Giving more the ball to indivudal plauers and/or tunrovers prone guys. When Smart made enough assists we were almost unbeatable.

This "big 3" is not balanced for me. So OK, turn the page, give the keys to Tatum and bring an elite guard with Brown. If Garland or Trae arn't abvailable, go to Lillard, who probably want to go PO again and Portland have tools to begin a rebuild.

So try something like Brown + Timelord or Horford for Lillard + Murray + future 1st (if with Timelord)

Lillard - White - Tatum - Grant W - Porzingis          Brogdon - PP (Davison) - Hauser - Murray - Horford (MLE Plumlee ?) Deep bench Griffin - Begarin. For the Mazzula strategy it fits perfectly. No excuse.

Calling Smart a "real point guard" is a stretch. A combo guard who could pass a bit? Yes. But we're not talking CP3 or Rondo.

Smart is a combo guard because of his defensive skills, but offensively he is a better creator or playmaker than all other guys. A real point guard doesn't mean an elite one. With time he turned to an average to good level of creator, gestionary and passer for a point guard. Regularity problems. Brogdon is more of a shooter, White a versatile 2, Pritchard not at the same level nor a great passer and Davison a G leaguer for now. We need a PG and a very good one. Then I might understand a little more the moves.

Whatever I will always ask me how much all this is due to Mazzula poor gestion against Philly and the 1 trhee Heat games.

Below are the career Assist:TO ratios of our four guards from last season:

* Marcus Smart: 2.42
* Malcolm Brogdon: 2.71
* Derrick White: 2.9
* Payton Pritchard: 2.42

Now here is the career Assist % of all four players:

* Marcus Smart: 21.6%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 23.5%
* Derrick White: 20.3%
* Payton Pritchard: 15.9%

And finally the turnover rate of all four:

* Marcus Smart: 15.3%
* Malcolm Brogdon: 11.3%
* Derrick White: 11.4%
* Payton Pritchard: 11.1%

Looking at that data it seems to me that Brogdon is the cloest thing we have to a pure point guard.  He has the highest career AST rate of this group and the lowest TO rate.  Looks like White is a very close second, with an AST rate only slihgly lower then Smart, but a significantly lower turnover rate.  Finally Smart would be 3rd, followed by Pritchard. 

If you go off basic AST/TO ratio then White is first, followed by Brogdon, wiht Smart and Pritchard finishign equal 3rd. 

Either way I'm not seeing any statiistcal evidence to suggest that Smart is a better pure PG then Brogdon and White - quite the contrary actually.  Out of our four main "point guards" we had last season Smart had the highest turnover percentage, the equal lowest TS% and the lowest FT% - making him the least stable/reliable and most volatile guard in that rotation offensively. 

All data I can see implies that losing Smart and giving those minutes to White/Brogdon should bring more stability and consistency to the team - which is something this team desperately needs.

Smart is a much better ball handler.  Much more able to handle the ball in traffic.  He is just inefficient, makes poor decisions, and shoots way too much, which undermines his more positive skills.

This is why I said offensively he is more of a point guard, he can be more creative off the dribble to pass, he opens more breach than a Brogdon, who mostly try to find the 3 after the pick wich is great as a 6 man... But rythm and pace will suffer with him as the titulary. I also thing Brogdon is more heavy (even if Smart isn't flash), not even saying he will miss a part of next season. Plus he mediaticly was on the trade block.
White is a versatile SG, he made more than 3 assists per game one time in his career 2 in PO's. He is can be very good at almost everything, incredibly versatile esp defensively. But not the 1st ballhandler of a contender team, esp with the low IQ of Brown at the 2?
Whatever I don't understand how most of you say OK ourroster is better balanced. No.  White will be our PG and Brogdon/Pritchard our subs and it is OK. Smart-Brogdon were OK in classic PG abilities, because they were 2 and because White solidify that at the 2. Tatum improving was also a big part.
This trade MAY give us a long term option at the 5 (and some playing time with 2 bigs, even if with Mazz not sure). But our ballhandling, ball circulation and even decision making, are worst now.

Another big trade is coming to take a PG or I don't understand anything. If not we will regret Smart not only because we loved this loyal and hustle guy, but because of his talent, ironicaly more offensively than defensively. We can find a guy with better PG ability than him of course. But we have to.

Agreed. Both about some of the criticisms of Brogdon at PG and of the team overall losing ball security and passing. The team benefitted from having two ball-handling guards on the floor most of the time and often alongside two skilled forwards (Jays) which greatly aided ball security and passing ability. This change will push the team backwards in terms of passing and ball security.

However, I am not in the same camp in terms of us needing another move to bring in a different PG. I am more confident in D White to step up and give adequate floor leadership. Plus, I wonder just how much difference a PG can have when Tatum, Jaylen and Porzingis are using up 60-70 possessions a game. Most PGs will struggle to make much of a dent in that subpar decision making. A defensive PG like D White is a strong fit with that group.

[cman88]

I guess you could say Kyrie/Hayward/Horford was supposed to be a big 3. in 2018. unfortunately it lasted barely a quarter.

then Kyrie got injured and that team was never the same. Loaded roster the following year but Kyrie was a locker room cancer and Hayward was a shell of himself.

What could've been if those 3 stayed healthy and we then moved to the Tatum/Brown era as they got older.