Is Smart/KP trade good….

[obnoxiousmime]

I'm fine with the trade overall because big men with Porzingis' skills are near impossible to find. There's a reason he got the nickname "Unicorn." All these other guys that would have been better from a financial, health, contract, or defensive versatility standpoint simply were not available. Wendell Carter Jr.? That's a fantasy, he's on one of the most team-friendly contracts in the league. There's no way anybody is getting him off the Magic. Even if you waited for someone like KAT or AD to become available, they have their own limitations and there's no guarantee you would get them anyway, especially with the new CBA restrictions complicating trades. This was an opportunity to get a guy like Porzingis in before the new rules take effect.

However, the reason I'm not doing cartwheels is because we keep adding skilled offensive players that also aren't the most durable (Porzingis, Brogdon). Secondly, this does nothing to solve our team's leadership and motor deficiencies. It still feels like they're designing a team in a lab but ignoring things like heart, effort, grit, and edge.

It's obviously hard, maybe even harder to get players with those qualities, so I'm not going to sit here and bemoan not being able to get a physical, grit-and-grind guy like Bam Adebayo or Draymond Green. We have to work with what's actually available out there and hope that our stars improve somewhat in that category. I do somewhat buy into the theory that Smart leaving will really challenge Brown and Tatum to own this team, and maybe even empower Brogdon and White a little more.

It was a trade you probably had to make from a value standpoint (don't forget we suddenly have 2nd rounders again and the Warriors pick is a nice chip), but the work probably isn't done. I think you still need a physical big wing/PF that with younger legs that can run around better than Horford can. Unfortunately this probably can' t be Grant anymore, though I wonder if there's a cheaper option out there. And the big question is, instead of using Brogdon as a bench scorer, can he actually facilitate more?

 

[vjcsmoke]

It’s hard to say because none of us has knowledge who’s gettable, but IMO, it should have been Wendell Carter Jr.

Carter Jr, isn’t a great long term fit next to Banchero. The Magic already have Wagner & Isaac in the front court and just drafted Jett Howard. For the right price, Carter Jr should have been attainable.

When you look at the history of considerable NBA trades, making a change for the sake of making a change, rarely works out well.

And statistically Porzingis looks better than Draymond Green, but ask them who’d they rather have.

What I am talking about is real world fit. My suggestion of Carter Jr was because he’s cheaper than Porzongis, without ego and is the perfect long term replacement for Horford as a role play.

Under Udoka, our roster was good enough. The Celtics only lost to a veteran Warriors team, essentially because it was their first trip to the Finals. Therefore their weakest link should be Mazzulla and his new ideologies.

I disagree.  We're not talking about Draymond Green so don't conflate that in this discussion.

You've made some assumptions about Porzingis and specifically assert that he's a WORSE trade option than Wendell Carter Jr.

I don't see it in terms of talent or team fit.

Brad Stevens response at 5:13 of this video explains about Porzingis growth in the league and potential team fit and talent level.

https://youtu.be/fMHsW-wYX7E?t=313

Respectfully, I'll take Brad's player evaluation over yours.

Our roster was clearly NOT good enough.  We got beat by the Heat.   Even if we had somehow squeaked by we would have had a really tough time matching up against the Nuggets and Nikola Jokic.  Adding a 7'3 rim protector who can also shoot really helps in those matchups.

[BASS_THUMPER]

There's a reason he got the nickname "Unicorn."

Unicorn



a mythical animal typically represented as a horse with a single straight horn projecting from its forehead.


we would get tech fouls every game...

Bruh this is not what we need now...

*sippin*

[hpantazo]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

[Ed Monix]

It’s hard to say because none of us has knowledge who’s gettable, but IMO, it should have been Wendell Carter Jr.

Carter Jr, isn’t a great long term fit next to Banchero. The Magic already have Wagner & Isaac in the front court and just drafted Jett Howard. For the right price, Carter Jr should have been attainable.

When you look at the history of considerable NBA trades, making a change for the sake of making a change, rarely works out well.

And statistically Porzingis looks better than Draymond Green, but ask them who’d they rather have.

What I am talking about is real world fit. My suggestion of Carter Jr was because he’s cheaper than Porzongis, without ego and is the perfect long term replacement for Horford as a role play.

Under Udoka, our roster was good enough. The Celtics only lost to a veteran Warriors team, essentially because it was their first trip to the Finals. Therefore their weakest link should be Mazzulla and his new ideologies.

I disagree.  We're not talking about Draymond Green so don't conflate that in this discussion.

You've made some assumptions about Porzingis and specifically assert that he's a WORSE trade option than Wendell Carter Jr.

I don't see it in terms of talent or team fit.

Brad Stevens response at 5:13 of this video explains about Porzingis growth in the league and potential team fit and talent level.

https://youtu.be/fMHsW-wYX7E?t=313

Respectfully, I'll take Brad's player evaluation over yours.

Our roster was clearly NOT good enough.  We got beat by the Heat.   Even if we had somehow squeaked by we would have had a really tough time matching up against the Nuggets and Nikola Jokic.  Adding a 7'3 rim protector who can also shoot really helps in those matchups.

Firstly, I appreciate that you disagree with me, that the fun of a forum. In contrast it seems you have a problem with my differing opinion. Do you not understand that I posted my opinion, did I say this is why I’m right and everyone else is wrong?

Secondly, conflating something means to merge information, and it’s not defined as a negative, so perhaps you’re using the wrong terminology.

Thirdly, my original point was (and continues to be) about cost controlled role players vs stars, so I haven’t gone off topic in the slightest.

[obnoxiousmime]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

Yeah, I agree that Smart wasn't always the picture-perfect vet leader that he was labeled as being. He wasn't a consistent performer, made as many boneheaded plays as he did spectacular ones, and all too often thought he was better than he actually was on offense. That being said, he was one of our few physically tough and emotional players. We need that because Tatum and Brown are just so low energy and quiet.

Especially now that Grant is also likely gone and Horford diminished, do we have enough big and tough players? White is quick and feisty, but he's not more energy than physical. Brogdon is slight and brittle. The ECF and Finals were more like football games than basketball, and we have enough skill players already. We need linemen, linebackers, and fullbacks now.

[hpantazo]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

Yeah, I agree that Smart wasn't always the picture-perfect vet leader that he was labeled as being. He wasn't a consistent performer, made as many boneheaded plays as he did spectacular ones, and all too often thought he was better than he actually was on offense. That being said, he was one of our few physically tough and emotional players. We need that because Tatum and Brown are just so low energy and quiet.

Especially now that Grant is also likely gone and Horford diminished, do we have enough big and tough players? White is quick and feisty, but he's not more energy than physical. Brogdon is slight and brittle. The ECF and Finals were more like football games than basketball, and we have enough skill players already. We need linemen, linebackers, and fullbacks now.

Do we though? What tough football lineman type players did the Nuggets have this year? I think it's more about skill and focus. Guys like Smart and Grant Williams often lost focus and that impacts everyone else on the team, especially in key situations.

[gouki88]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

Yeah, I agree that Smart wasn't always the picture-perfect vet leader that he was labeled as being. He wasn't a consistent performer, made as many boneheaded plays as he did spectacular ones, and all too often thought he was better than he actually was on offense. That being said, he was one of our few physically tough and emotional players. We need that because Tatum and Brown are just so low energy and quiet.

Especially now that Grant is also likely gone and Horford diminished, do we have enough big and tough players? White is quick and feisty, but he's not more energy than physical. Brogdon is slight and brittle. The ECF and Finals were more like football games than basketball, and we have enough skill players already. We need linemen, linebackers, and fullbacks now.

Do we though? What tough football lineman type players did the Nuggets have this year? I think it's more about skill and focus. Guys like Smart and Grant Williams often lost focus and that impacts everyone else on the team, especially in key situations.

Gordon & Brown fit that kind of mould insofar as being strong and physical. I think what Denver teaches us should be the importance of balance. Balanced offence, versatile defence. Our roster has become unbalanced

[moiso]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

Yeah, I agree that Smart wasn't always the picture-perfect vet leader that he was labeled as being. He wasn't a consistent performer, made as many boneheaded plays as he did spectacular ones, and all too often thought he was better than he actually was on offense. That being said, he was one of our few physically tough and emotional players. We need that because Tatum and Brown are just so low energy and quiet.

Especially now that Grant is also likely gone and Horford diminished, do we have enough big and tough players? White is quick and feisty, but he's not more energy than physical. Brogdon is slight and brittle. The ECF and Finals were more like football games than basketball, and we have enough skill players already. We need linemen, linebackers, and fullbacks now.

Brogdon is pretty built and pretty strong.

[obnoxiousmime]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

Yeah, I agree that Smart wasn't always the picture-perfect vet leader that he was labeled as being. He wasn't a consistent performer, made as many boneheaded plays as he did spectacular ones, and all too often thought he was better than he actually was on offense. That being said, he was one of our few physically tough and emotional players. We need that because Tatum and Brown are just so low energy and quiet.

Especially now that Grant is also likely gone and Horford diminished, do we have enough big and tough players? White is quick and feisty, but he's not more energy than physical. Brogdon is slight and brittle. The ECF and Finals were more like football games than basketball, and we have enough skill players already. We need linemen, linebackers, and fullbacks now.

Do we though? What tough football lineman type players did the Nuggets have this year? I think it's more about skill and focus. Guys like Smart and Grant Williams often lost focus and that impacts everyone else on the team, especially in key situations.

I think Jokic is tough, he's just not mobile or a good rim protector. However, he can play back to the basket and score inside the hard way if the situation calls for it. And just his size caused a lot of problems when he was screening for guys. I think Gordon is also physical, athletic, and long. Porter obviously sucked, which is why he sat during crunch time. Bruce Brown is basically built like a short yardage running back, and Braun might not huge but he's feisty and energetic (like a Derrick White). Both Brown and Braun probably won them one game apiece, which is amazing from a mid-level guy and a rookie.

But yeah, you're right that Grant and Smart sometimes weren't locked in. However, in the end who was playing big minutes in the playoffs? It was still Grant and Smart out there because they could hold up physically.

Porzingis is tall and can postup/rim protect, but he's not as big/wide as Jokic. He's not going to go to the rim as often on PnR, because he likes to pop more. As I said, I think it's still a net positive move, but can somebody play next to him that's more strong/physical and who isn't 37 years old or our best player in Tatum? Porzingis is obviously an upgrade, but it's not like he's going to be doing all the dirty work Horford used to do. Who's that player? Currently, it's still Horford!

[BitterJim]

I'm fine with the trade overall because big men with Porzingis' skills are near impossible to find. There's a reason he got the nickname "Unicorn." All these other guys that would have been better from a financial, health, contract, or defensive versatility standpoint simply were not available. Wendell Carter Jr.? That's a fantasy, he's on one of the most team-friendly contracts in the league. There's no way anybody is getting him off the Magic. Even if you waited for someone like KAT or AD to become available, they have their own limitations and there's no guarantee you would get them anyway, especially with the new CBA restrictions complicating trades. This was an opportunity to get a guy like Porzingis in before the new rules take effect.

However, the reason I'm not doing cartwheels is because we keep adding skilled offensive players that also aren't the most durable (Porzingis, Brogdon). Secondly, this does nothing to solve our team's leadership and motor deficiencies. It still feels like they're designing a team in a lab but ignoring things like heart, effort, grit, and edge.

It's obviously hard, maybe even harder to get players with those qualities, so I'm not going to sit here and bemoan not being able to get a physical, grit-and-grind guy like Bam Adebayo or Draymond Green. We have to work with what's actually available out there and hope that our stars improve somewhat in that category. I do somewhat buy into the theory that Smart leaving will really challenge Brown and Tatum to own this team, and maybe even empower Brogdon and White a little more.

It was a trade you probably had to make from a value standpoint (don't forget we suddenly have 2nd rounders again and the Warriors pick is a nice chip), but the work probably isn't done. I think you still need a physical big wing/PF that with younger legs that can run around better than Horford can. Unfortunately this probably can' t be Grant anymore, though I wonder if there's a cheaper option out there. And the big question is, instead of using Brogdon as a bench scorer, can he actually facilitate more?

His first year in Indy he averaged 16.5pts and 7.1 assists, so clearly he's capable of looking to create more for others than for himself. That doesn't necessarily mean that that's a good way to utilize him, though

[liam]

Does anyone else think there might have been two trades set up? The Brogdon for Zinger trade and the Smart to Memphis. If the first trade with Brogdon goes through do we end up with the picks and Tyus Jones for Smart?  I really like Tyus Jones.

[W8ting2McHale]

I'm fine with the trade overall because big men with Porzingis' skills are near impossible to find. There's a reason he got the nickname "Unicorn." All these other guys that would have been better from a financial, health, contract, or defensive versatility standpoint simply were not available. Wendell Carter Jr.? That's a fantasy, he's on one of the most team-friendly contracts in the league. There's no way anybody is getting him off the Magic. Even if you waited for someone like KAT or AD to become available, they have their own limitations and there's no guarantee you would get them anyway, especially with the new CBA restrictions complicating trades. This was an opportunity to get a guy like Porzingis in before the new rules take effect.

However, the reason I'm not doing cartwheels is because we keep adding skilled offensive players that also aren't the most durable (Porzingis, Brogdon). Secondly, this does nothing to solve our team's leadership and motor deficiencies. It still feels like they're designing a team in a lab but ignoring things like heart, effort, grit, and edge.

It's obviously hard, maybe even harder to get players with those qualities, so I'm not going to sit here and bemoan not being able to get a physical, grit-and-grind guy like Bam Adebayo or Draymond Green. We have to work with what's actually available out there and hope that our stars improve somewhat in that category. I do somewhat buy into the theory that Smart leaving will really challenge Brown and Tatum to own this team, and maybe even empower Brogdon and White a little more.

It was a trade you probably had to make from a value standpoint (don't forget we suddenly have 2nd rounders again and the Warriors pick is a nice chip), but the work probably isn't done. I think you still need a physical big wing/PF that with younger legs that can run around better than Horford can. Unfortunately this probably can' t be Grant anymore, though I wonder if there's a cheaper option out there. And the big question is, instead of using Brogdon as a bench scorer, can he actually facilitate more?

His first year in Indy he averaged 16.5pts and 7.1 assists, so clearly he's capable of looking to create more for others than for himself. That doesn't necessarily mean that that's a good way to utilize him, though

Brogdon is certainly capable of matching Smart's counting stats,  even in a reduced role.

[hpantazo]

Two points I have to wonder about.

1) Regarding team leadership and our inability to maintain focus and effort, you have to wonder how much of an addition by subtraction moving Smart will be. I love Smart, and he was the undisputed emotional leader and longest tenured Celtic, but as others said he was not the most stable leader emotionally. It was also impossible for others like Tatum. Brown, or White to take the lead with Smart around.

2) How different would most people be viewing this trade if the rumored Brogdon deal never surfaced? If we had never known about that possibility, this could have been received much more positively by most fans.

Yeah, I agree that Smart wasn't always the picture-perfect vet leader that he was labeled as being. He wasn't a consistent performer, made as many boneheaded plays as he did spectacular ones, and all too often thought he was better than he actually was on offense. That being said, he was one of our few physically tough and emotional players. We need that because Tatum and Brown are just so low energy and quiet.

Especially now that Grant is also likely gone and Horford diminished, do we have enough big and tough players? White is quick and feisty, but he's not more energy than physical. Brogdon is slight and brittle. The ECF and Finals were more like football games than basketball, and we have enough skill players already. We need linemen, linebackers, and fullbacks now.

Do we though? What tough football lineman type players did the Nuggets have this year? I think it's more about skill and focus. Guys like Smart and Grant Williams often lost focus and that impacts everyone else on the team, especially in key situations.

I think Jokic is tough, he's just not mobile or a good rim protector. However, he can play back to the basket and score inside the hard way if the situation calls for it. And just his size caused a lot of problems when he was screening for guys. I think Gordon is also physical, athletic, and long. Porter obviously sucked, which is why he sat during crunch time. Bruce Brown is basically built like a short yardage running back, and Braun might not huge but he's feisty and energetic (like a Derrick White). Both Brown and Braun probably won them one game apiece, which is amazing from a mid-level guy and a rookie.

But yeah, you're right that Grant and Smart sometimes weren't locked in. However, in the end who was playing big minutes in the playoffs? It was still Grant and Smart out there because they could hold up physically.

Porzingis is tall and can postup/rim protect, but he's not as big/wide as Jokic. He's not going to go to the rim as often on PnR, because he likes to pop more. As I said, I think it's still a net positive move, but can somebody play next to him that's more strong/physical and who isn't 37 years old or our best player in Tatum? Porzingis is obviously an upgrade, but it's not like he's going to be doing all the dirty work Horford used to do. Who's that player? Currently, it's still Horford!

Jokic is mentally tough, and that's what matters more imo. Physical toughness doesn't equate to elite NBA success, mental toughness does. Smart has extreme passion, effort and physical toughness, but not the mental toughness. Mental toughness is not aggression, it's maintaining poise and focus in all situations and not getting distracted by physical play, poor officiating, trash talking, etc. Smart and Grant, and often enough Brown and Tatum too got caught up in this stuff too often. Guys like White and Brogdon do not.

[Roy H.]

If it's meant as a rental, it's a terrible trade.

But, I've got to assume that's not the thinking.