Celtics Off-Season News

[No Nickname]

You’re way too high on Stevens relative to Hauser.  Hauser is absolutely above Stevens in the rotation.  It’s not even a given Stevens makes the team.  Hauser will be in the opening night rotation, that’s already been decided by the team based on his body of work last year.  They aren’t going to yank him out based on 3-4 preseason games.  Brissett probably will be in the rotation too — the rest of the guys will have to earn their time as the season goes along, assuming they make it to opening day.

I'd be surprised if Stevens didn't make the team, but otherwise I agree.  I don't quite understand why so many folks see Hauser as a question mark for the rotation.  He's an elite shooter who plays passable-to-solid defense.

I too would be surprised if Stevens didn’t make the team, but he’s only on a training camp contract so his spot certainly isn’t a given.  If the right player shakes loose from another team, I think Stevens would be out (but I don’t think such a player will become available).

I guess that I do see that the shine has worn off some from Hauser.  He was great at times last season but towards the end and then now this preseason, to me, he has regressed, possibly regressing to the mean.  Stevens just looks like more of a NBA athlete to me.  Yes, Hauser shoots better when he shoots better, Stevens does everything else better.  I am not entirely sold on either so wouldn't be all that surprised in any case but at this point, I see Stevens having an edge on getting rotation minutes once the season starts but in my view, neither is a lock.

So just as I say this, Hauser goes out and has a good game.  I only saw the first half and didn't see Stevens play at all but based on the box score, he didn't appear to have done much.  I base a lot of my player evaluation on what I see on the court.  I consider stats too, especially if I haven't seen a player all that much.

Hauser can shoot, no doubt about that, but it is hard to parse out his shooting in garbage time from his shooting in more critical game moments.  To me, he is on the fringe of a core rotation NBA player.  It is different for him from what I see when he is out there with the "big boys" vs. other less critical times.  Stevens may be on that same fringe but I just see a lot more athleticism and physicality with him.  Like Brissett, he is not a 3-point shooter though and these days, that is important.

I guess we will see how it all works out.  I am not saying there is a big separation between any of Brissett, Stevens, and Hauser.  Mykhailkiuk is now in that same mix also.  But right now, I would rank them as follows in terms of potential value to the team:

Brissett
Stevens
Hauser
Mykhailiuk

I don't think we need all 4 of them.  Even if we start the season with all 4, that may change along the way.  Stevens and Mykhailiuk are both "waiveable", Brissett and Hauser have guaranteed contracts, so that is a factor also.  And Mykhailiuk has looked really good, he is trending up.

I'm assuming you're replying to me, but you didn't quote my post with Hauser's stats.

I guess we can all play the "I judge by my eye" game, but when you say his stats might be improved by garbage time minutes you'd have to go judge what "garbage" really is, see if the other guys on the floor are playing actual defense, and determine if Hauser was just more confident in his stroke then because there was no victory/loss hanging in the balance.

All I know is, you can look at the April 25th 119-117 loss to the Hawks in the playoffs (no garbage time there) and see that Hauser went 3-5 (2-4 from three) with two rebounds, two assists, one block, and no turnovers in 14 minutes.

I'm just not seeing how his play dropped off late in the season, or that just his shooting stayed good because he played in garbage time.

There's a recency effect going on with fans who just see that he barely played against the Sixers and Heat in the last two series of the playoffs.  Again, that's not Sam's fault that his minutes were cut drastically.

Not responding to anyone in particular as most everyone disagreed with me, which is fine, that is what forums are for.  Just for another example, take Evan Fournier.  In his 16 games with the Celtics, he shot 46% from 3.  But that was another case where what I saw on the court, just didn't seem to match the stats.  Many wanted to resign him (not me) and he went on to fail in NYK.

I have had plenty of misses along the way, just like everyone else, but I am not seeing it with Hauser.  He is young, he still likely has ceiling, but right now, I see a fringe rotation player.  The 3-point shooting certainly makes him intriguing, he will have his moments for sure, he can be a useful player, but I am not sure he can be relied on right now to be a regular core rotation player.

I actually agree with all of that.  He's very limited offensively to just doing one thing well.  That's it.

Well, I guess you can say that he is really good at keeping the ball moving.  If he isn't catch-and-shooting he knows the ball needs to move quickly to get it to guys who can create.

My only issue was the complaint about his production falling off later in the year.  I thought he got better in some ways as the season went on.  Not the highs of that game at New York where he went off.  But still a pretty solid Feb/Mar/April for a ninth man.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

I generally like Lowe's takes, and usually agree with him, but I disagree with his view that Jrue is not "a point guard by any means." I've always thought of Jrue as a point guard, and that's even what he's listed as on ESPN.com (Basketball Reference lists him as a point guard and shooting guard). He's certainly a better ball-handler than Jaylen.

As for the starting lineup, it makes sense to have Al come off the bench, particularly since he's going to be missing a fair amount of games for rest, anyway.

[wiley]

Zach Lowe thinks the Celtics will bring Holiday off the bench.

I certainly hope not. Thought it was a mistake with Brogdon and its a bigger one with Holiday. I just don't understand why the Celtics trade for legit point guards and relegate them to the bench.

I get Joe loves White but to me White is a better option off the bench than Holiday. I would bring Al off the bench and start Holiday and White together.

Yeah, that would be really really dumb.

[BitterJim]

I generally like Lowe's takes, and usually agree with him, but I disagree with his view that Jrue is not "a point guard by any means." I've always thought of Jrue as a point guard, and that's even what he's listed as on ESPN.com (Basketball Reference lists him as a point guard and shooting guard). He's certainly a better ball-handler than Jaylen.

As for the starting lineup, it makes sense to have Al come off the bench, particularly since he's going to be missing a fair amount of games for rest, anyway.

Agreed on Holiday being a PG. He averaged the 9th most APG in the NBA last season, calling him anything but a PG is pretty wild.

[Goldstar88]

More on Lowe's remarks from Brian Robb:

“I don’t think this was a one-off,” Zach Lowe said Wednesday on his Lowe Post podcast. “I don’t think this was a let’s see how this looks. He may end up starting a ton of games. Injuries, nights off, matchups, just being so good that we have to start him. I think this has some legs potentially and the reason I think it has legs because they trotted it out in the first game. They didn’t play great but you could feel the spacing and the impact of a real quick trigger center with Kristaps Porzingis. I think they liked Tatum out, Holiday in with Jaylen Brown on the floor because like the Curry on the bench minutes in Golden State, Tatum on the bench has been a problem now for a lot of years.”

Lowe hints that the team is considering bringing Holiday off the bench to help address this issue with Tatum on the bench.

“I think they like the look and feel of having two All-Star perimeter ball handlers,” Lowe said of playing Brown and Holiday together while Tatum rests. “Neither of them a point guard by any means, one of them with sometimes the yips with the dribble, that’s Jaylen Brown. Both All-Star, All-NBA level players…let’s see if they can prop up the offense along with Porzingis and good spacing. They are going to close games with Jrue Holiday on the floor. I think (bringing him off the bench) has some legs.”

Whether Holiday is willing to sacrifice and embrace a reserve role remains to be seen. He addressed the alignment after his Celtics debut on Sunday without giving any hints on the matter.

“I think it’s just about time,” Holiday said. “Time on the court. Getting a chance to play with them and see what’s going to happen, see where I’m supposed to be and where I’m going to be getting the ball, and things like that. But real fun, glad I got to go out there and play.”

He doesn’t think Jrue Holiday is a point guard???  “By any means” 

Enough said... What a joke.

[obnoxiousmime]

Just as interesting about the Holiday starting question is what it apparently reveals about the other players on the roster.

First of all, it confirms that they are concerned about what we all know is obvious: Jaylen needs to be further moved off the ball. He should be used as a finisher primarily, even when Tatum is out. That means that somebody else in the non-Tatum minutes needs to be the primary ballhandler/initiator. We're not going to see as much of Jaylen dancing on the perimeter "creating" as part of that unit's attack.

The second interesting question is, if they feel Holiday is that person, what does that mean about their feelings on White and Pritchard? White was going to be their starting guard until Holiday unexpectedly became available and he's the easiest personality-wise to accept a bench role (it appears that Horford is very proud about being a starter). Pritchard is having a hot preseason and just got an extension, leading some to believe he'd have a similar role to some extent in the regular season off the bench. This would put doubt on that idea, since Holiday being the primary ballhandler would make Pritchard more of a spacer/off ball movement shooter.

Anyway, all the reasoning seems sound and yes, having the best lineups out there at all times make sense analytically. The Celtics braintrust also obviously has a lot of reverence for the Spurs and you could point to Ginobili moving to the bench as a positive example of this. All that being said, I still think that perception has value and that fans are going to want Holiday announced with the starters, being considered for the All-Star game/season awards, generating "best starting 5" debates, etc. I think all that stuff still has value. Maybe it would be different if, like Ginobili you had already won a title with Holiday and had a long history with him.

[Redz]

Just as interesting about the Holiday starting question is what it apparently reveals about the other players on the roster.

First of all, it confirms that they are concerned about what we all know is obvious: Jaylen needs to be further moved off the ball. He should be used as a finisher primarily, even when Tatum is out. That means that somebody else in the non-Tatum minutes needs to be the primary ballhandler/initiator. We're not going to see as much of Jaylen dancing on the perimeter "creating" as part of that unit's attack.

The second interesting question is, if they feel Holiday is that person, what does that mean about their feelings on White and Pritchard? White was going to be their starting guard until Holiday unexpectedly became available and he's the easiest personality-wise to accept a bench role (it appears that Horford is very proud about being a starter). Pritchard is having a hot preseason and just got an extension, leading some to believe he'd have a similar role to some extent in the regular season off the bench. This would put doubt on that idea, since Holiday being the primary ballhandler would make Pritchard more of a spacer/off ball movement shooter.

Anyway, all the reasoning seems sound and yes, having the best lineups out there at all times make sense analytically. The Celtics braintrust also obviously has a lot of reverence for the Spurs and you could point to Ginobili moving to the bench as a positive example of this. All that being said, I still think that perception has value and that fans are going to want Holiday announced with the starters, being considered for the All-Star game/season awards, generating "best starting 5" debates, etc. I think all that stuff still has value. Maybe it would be different if, like Ginobili you had already won a title with Holiday and had a long history with him.

Not sure how they all mix together but I’ve definitely loved what I’ve seen of Holliday and White on the court together.

[Goldstar88]

So far, Horford is impressed (With Porzingis). “I feel like he’s really doing a good job with the attention to detail, especially on the defensive end,” said the 17-year vet. “With us, we’re asking him to do a lot, to cover a lot of things. Already I feel like he has my back covering different positions on the court. Everybody knows his offense. His offense is great. We know he can do a lot of things. But on defense, he’s doing a good job of talking to us, protecting the basket and really staying active.” – via Taylor Snow @ NBA.com

[BitterJim]

Just as interesting about the Holiday starting question is what it apparently reveals about the other players on the roster.

First of all, it confirms that they are concerned about what we all know is obvious: Jaylen needs to be further moved off the ball. He should be used as a finisher primarily, even when Tatum is out. That means that somebody else in the non-Tatum minutes needs to be the primary ballhandler/initiator. We're not going to see as much of Jaylen dancing on the perimeter "creating" as part of that unit's attack.

The second interesting question is, if they feel Holiday is that person, what does that mean about their feelings on White and Pritchard? White was going to be their starting guard until Holiday unexpectedly became available and he's the easiest personality-wise to accept a bench role (it appears that Horford is very proud about being a starter). Pritchard is having a hot preseason and just got an extension, leading some to believe he'd have a similar role to some extent in the regular season off the bench. This would put doubt on that idea, since Holiday being the primary ballhandler would make Pritchard more of a spacer/off ball movement shooter.

Anyway, all the reasoning seems sound and yes, having the best lineups out there at all times make sense analytically. The Celtics braintrust also obviously has a lot of reverence for the Spurs and you could point to Ginobili moving to the bench as a positive example of this. All that being said, I still think that perception has value and that fans are going to want Holiday announced with the starters, being considered for the All-Star game/season awards, generating "best starting 5" debates, etc. I think all that stuff still has value. Maybe it would be different if, like Ginobili you had already won a title with Holiday and had a long history with him.

I don't think it "confirms" that at all. We had an opportunity to upgrade Brogdon to Jrue, and we took it. That isn't a reflection on anything except Brad's willingness to make win-now moves this summer.

[obnoxiousmime]

Just as interesting about the Holiday starting question is what it apparently reveals about the other players on the roster.

First of all, it confirms that they are concerned about what we all know is obvious: Jaylen needs to be further moved off the ball. He should be used as a finisher primarily, even when Tatum is out. That means that somebody else in the non-Tatum minutes needs to be the primary ballhandler/initiator. We're not going to see as much of Jaylen dancing on the perimeter "creating" as part of that unit's attack.

The second interesting question is, if they feel Holiday is that person, what does that mean about their feelings on White and Pritchard? White was going to be their starting guard until Holiday unexpectedly became available and he's the easiest personality-wise to accept a bench role (it appears that Horford is very proud about being a starter). Pritchard is having a hot preseason and just got an extension, leading some to believe he'd have a similar role to some extent in the regular season off the bench. This would put doubt on that idea, since Holiday being the primary ballhandler would make Pritchard more of a spacer/off ball movement shooter.

Anyway, all the reasoning seems sound and yes, having the best lineups out there at all times make sense analytically. The Celtics braintrust also obviously has a lot of reverence for the Spurs and you could point to Ginobili moving to the bench as a positive example of this. All that being said, I still think that perception has value and that fans are going to want Holiday announced with the starters, being considered for the All-Star game/season awards, generating "best starting 5" debates, etc. I think all that stuff still has value. Maybe it would be different if, like Ginobili you had already won a title with Holiday and had a long history with him.

I don't think it "confirms" that at all. We had an opportunity to upgrade Brogdon to Jrue, and we took it. That isn't a reflection on anything except Brad's willingness to make win-now moves this summer.

My post was in response to Zach Lowe's comments on Holiday potentially coming off the bench and the Celtics' rationale for it. I wasn't referring to the trade itself. It's unclear if Lowe was just analyzing it himself or if it was based on talks with the team, but he basically said Holiday off the bench helped the Brown-only units because those lineups struggled offensively. You can go back and find the quote, somebody transcribed it from the podcast.

[Roy H.]

Just as interesting about the Holiday starting question is what it apparently reveals about the other players on the roster.

First of all, it confirms that they are concerned about what we all know is obvious: Jaylen needs to be further moved off the ball. He should be used as a finisher primarily, even when Tatum is out. That means that somebody else in the non-Tatum minutes needs to be the primary ballhandler/initiator. We're not going to see as much of Jaylen dancing on the perimeter "creating" as part of that unit's attack.

The second interesting question is, if they feel Holiday is that person, what does that mean about their feelings on White and Pritchard? White was going to be their starting guard until Holiday unexpectedly became available and he's the easiest personality-wise to accept a bench role (it appears that Horford is very proud about being a starter). Pritchard is having a hot preseason and just got an extension, leading some to believe he'd have a similar role to some extent in the regular season off the bench. This would put doubt on that idea, since Holiday being the primary ballhandler would make Pritchard more of a spacer/off ball movement shooter.

Anyway, all the reasoning seems sound and yes, having the best lineups out there at all times make sense analytically. The Celtics braintrust also obviously has a lot of reverence for the Spurs and you could point to Ginobili moving to the bench as a positive example of this. All that being said, I still think that perception has value and that fans are going to want Holiday announced with the starters, being considered for the All-Star game/season awards, generating "best starting 5" debates, etc. I think all that stuff still has value. Maybe it would be different if, like Ginobili you had already won a title with Holiday and had a long history with him.

I don't think it "confirms" that at all. We had an opportunity to upgrade Brogdon to Jrue, and we took it. That isn't a reflection on anything except Brad's willingness to make win-now moves this summer.

My post was in response to Zach Lowe's comments on Holiday potentially coming off the bench and the Celtics' rationale for it. I wasn't referring to the trade itself. It's unclear if Lowe was just analyzing it himself or if it was based on talks with the team, but he basically said Holiday off the bench helped the Brown-only units because those lineups struggled offensively. You can go back and find the quote, somebody transcribed it from the podcast.

I don't think he's citing team sources.  It's his own observation mixed in with his speculation.

[cman88]

I dont think the Holiday trade really proves anything of what they think about white/pritchard etc.

Celtics were fully content to roll out the roster as it was with brogdon/timelord here.

but then the powers in the east shifted with Dame going to Milwaukee. not only did that potentially leapfrog the bucks past the celtics. it opened up an opportunity for Miami or Philly to go get Holiday and vastly improve their roster.

So, the celtics made the decision to go all in on Holiday to essentially put them back above Milwaukee. and to block Miami/Philly from improving to the point where they possibly are at the celtics level.

It was brad/ownership basically saying. No, we are going to win this year so lets pay the heavy price to make sure we are in the race because having to go through a miami/philly with Jrue and then a milwaukee with dame would probably be a tougher path than 2 years ago.

[Big333223]

Interesting article on Oshae:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/oshae-brissett-s-value-to-the-celtics-on-full-display-in-preseason/ar-AA1i3QMS?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=954e1c0b2b4f4fc28b17a247223a3d7c&ei=12

TP for the article.

I remain really high on Brisett as a guy who can play 25 minutes a night and give the team everything it needs on the wing in those minutes.

[Goldstar88]

Garnett shared why he thinks that the Celtics should be a bit concerned about their lack of perceived depth following the trade in a recent episode of “KG Certified.”

“No, no, no, you got to worry about it,” Garnett said when asked if the Celtics need to be concerned about their lack of depth. “Your bench is everything. I don’t think that you can exhaust [Jaylen] Brown, [Jayson Tatum] – I don’t think you can exhaust them early on. When you get into the second half of the season, you pick their minutes up a little bit.”

Garnett isn’t sure how the Celtics will necessarily fix their depth, but he thinks Brad Stevens is going to address it. However, he noted that whoever they bring in is unlikely to be as good as who they parted ways with.

“You want to have solid pieces,” Garnett said. “I’m sure Brad and them have thought about this. They’re very strategy-driven. I can see them bringing in some help, actually. But, I mean, it ain’t going to be Marcus Smart. It ain’t going to be Rob Williams. Those were special players on a special team that they were feeling like they were trying to build a certain type of team.”

[Vermont Green]

Garnett shared why he thinks that the Celtics should be a bit concerned about their lack of perceived depth following the trade in a recent episode of “KG Certified.”

“No, no, no, you got to worry about it,” Garnett said when asked if the Celtics need to be concerned about their lack of depth. “Your bench is everything. I don’t think that you can exhaust [Jaylen] Brown, [Jayson Tatum] – I don’t think you can exhaust them early on. When you get into the second half of the season, you pick their minutes up a little bit.”

Garnett isn’t sure how the Celtics will necessarily fix their depth, but he thinks Brad Stevens is going to address it. However, he noted that whoever they bring in is unlikely to be as good as who they parted ways with.

“You want to have solid pieces,” Garnett said. “I’m sure Brad and them have thought about this. They’re very strategy-driven. I can see them bringing in some help, actually. But, I mean, it ain’t going to be Marcus Smart. It ain’t going to be Rob Williams. Those were special players on a special team that they were feeling like they were trying to build a certain type of team.”

Thanks for posting this quote, when Kevin Garnett speaks, we all listen.  But Marcus Smart has been replaced by Holiday (upgrade) and Rob Williams by Porzingis (upgrade).  We primarily need to replace Grant Williams and Brogdon.  Brogdon is probably largely replaced by Pritchard but also guys like Hauser, Stevens, Mykhailiuk.  It is not a 1 for 1 replacement but I am not that concerned about that.  Grant Williams has been replaced by Brissett.  Again, not perfect, I would prefer to have a true natural PF on the bench, but I don't think this hurts the team all that much.