Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Kernewek]

By the way, in case anyone is looking for video clips when we talk about specific examples:
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/traditional

If the figures are blue, you can click through them and get a video replay per occurrence.

So if you want to see, say, all the Celtics' turnovers for the series, you can can use the filters to bring you here:
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/traditional?LastNGames=2&TeamID=1610612738

and then click on the stat - again, if it's blue - to get you to the full postseason/regular season video playlist. You will have to sort it again, which is annoying, but it's great that this is available to the general public (for now at least)

[Roy H.]

I'm curious about one aspect of Joe's growth:  if we need a game-winner in the Finals, will Joe reflexively go to the terrible Tatum iso that seemed like it was our only end of quarter play during the season?  Or, will he be willing to call plays for other guys, like the game-tying shot JB had against Indiana?

I think that was the single biggest complaint I consistently had with Joe this season, but I'm hoping it's remedied itself.

Tatum is by far Boston's best playmaker. He should have the ball. I'm fine if the play runs through him for someone else, but Tatum needs to be making that decision. Holiday is the only other guy I'd trust to make thay decision.  He is just more limited in what he can do.

Yeah, that's a different thing.  I don't mind if Tatum has the ball.  I absolutely hate it when he settles for three pointers or fadeaways.  He simply hasn't been making those shots.

One of my favorite Celtics memories is Paul Pierce passing to Delonte West for a game-winner.  Draw the defense, pass it to the open guy.  Tatum is brilliant at it for about 47.5 minutes every game, but then keeps the ball for the last shot.

Personally I'd just bring Pritchard off the bench and have him shoot a half court 3.

Haha.  It's been our most reliable quarter-ending shot lately.

[Moranis]

If Boston needs a 3 I might actually go really small. Pritchard, Holiday, Hauser, Brown, and Tatum as the lineup on floor. Tatum with ball and lots of screening and movement off the ball to get guys open.

[Roy H.]

If Boston needs a 3 I might actually go really small. Pritchard, Holiday, Hauser, Brown, and Tatum as the lineup on floor. Tatum with ball and lots of screening and movement off the ball to get guys open.

I think it's hard taking White out.  He's perhaps our best 3PT shooter when combining efficiency and volume.

I'd sit Hauser since he's out of rhythm. 

[BudweiserCeltic]

If Boston needs a 3 I might actually go really small. Pritchard, Holiday, Hauser, Brown, and Tatum as the lineup on floor. Tatum with ball and lots of screening and movement off the ball to get guys open.

I think it's hard taking White out.  He's perhaps our best 3PT shooter when combining efficiency and volume.

I'd sit Hauser since he's out of rhythm.

I agree with this, plus White has shown he can hit clutch shots. Unless memory is failing me... and on a miss, I'd have him over Hauser to crash the boards if there's time for that still.

[bdm860]

If Boston needs a 3 I might actually go really small. Pritchard, Holiday, Hauser, Brown, and Tatum as the lineup on floor. Tatum with ball and lots of screening and movement off the ball to get guys open.

I think it's hard taking White out.  He's perhaps our best 3PT shooter when combining efficiency and volume.

I'd sit Hauser since he's out of rhythm.

I agree with this, plus White has shown he can hit clutch shots. Unless memory is failing me... and on a miss, I'd have him over Hauser to crash the boards if there's time for that still.

Probably depends on the situation (length of the court or half court set? If half court, inbounding from baseline, sideout, or other?, etc.) who's hot/cold, and who you think the defense might roll out.

But I think it might be beneficial to have a 6'9" 240lb 40% 3 point shooter out there to help set picks and create room, or hit the shot, or help corral a miss.

Speaks volumes about the team that there's so many options though.  Can't really go wrong with any of Tatum, Brown, White, Holiday, Horford, Pritchard, Hauser, Porzingis (if he can play).

[green_bballers13]

Any Celtics head coach haters left?

I think he's done alright by the boys.

[green_bballers13]

Good job Celtics coaching staff. It was impressive that they keep holding off late game pushes. The team's composure is admirable.

[trickybilly]

I'm still fire Joe.

[ozgod]

Joe definitely deserves a lot of credit for his success in probably the most important role a coach has - to manage his team of players, to get them to all buy into a common vision, and to get them all pulling in the same direction, executing an agreed game plan. Not every fan with agree with his vision for the team or the game plan he wants them to implement, but there's no doubt his players all agree, and they're all aligned with Joe.

That's the most important job of any leader of an organization or team, whether it's sports, corporate, government or whatever else. This is a team where everyone knows their role, everyone understands that is expected of them and they hold each other accountable. You have guys like Tillman who haven't played in weeks and come in and know exactly what his role is. It's a mature team not a bunch of college players, they don't need to be taught how to suck eggs or yelled at or have the whip cracked. They just need to make sure they all understand the need to sacrifice and the need to hold each other accountable.

Joe's weakest point (that we could see) was his in-game management - timeouts, subs, adjusting the gameplan on the fly. They also happen to be the only part of his job we can see as fans, and evaluate him on in our couple of hours a night of watching the game before we forget about it and move on to our day to day lives, so it becomes the be-all end-all of whether he's a good coach not. He's clearly improved in that respect.

BUT...he's still getting fired right after we win the LOB trophy. Don't let him get his grubby hands on it 

[tenn_smoothie]

You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.

As I said, I am hardly alone in my opinion on Joe's offense and the way it leads to bad losses or blown leads. Sometimes we escape like Game 3 tonite due to our superior talent and our defense. But we win in spite of Joe's offense, not because of it.

Some similar opinions include:

Charles Barkley: Brings up the bad shot selection and stagnant offense the team falls into on a regular basis.

ESPN Tim Bontemps: That Boston still hasn't quite shaken all of its bad habits but still has enough talent to close out this series. The fourth quarter was a highlight reel of Boston's past issues -- poor offensive execution, lapses in concentration and overall head-scratching decision-making. But after giving up a 22-2 run that got Dallas back within a point, Boston was able to lock in defensively down the stretch. It was enough to move the Celtics one win away from an NBA-record 18th championship -- even if it became far more stressful than it should have been.

ESPN Brian Windhorst: The Celtics are finally over the hump, and they have one hand on banner No. 18. They had to survive their late-game demons. Boston has lost a handful of playoff games in this exact fashion over the past several years, and during that 20-2 run in the fourth quarter there was that old sick feeling. But the Celtics' stars all made a play or two -- and collectively, that was enough, mostly because they now have so many stars.

[SHAQATTACK]

He speaks with much more confidence now . 

Kinda has zero personality to me , but hey , if the guys like him and buy in , what more can you ask.

I?m glade we don?t have Kidd as a coach , he reminds me of a criminal.  I don?t trust him.

[Big333223]

Here's a good video about how the Celtics adjusted their offensive scheme after halftime of game 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myZrj06fHsY

[BudweiserCeltic]

You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.

As I said, I am hardly alone in my opinion on Joe's offense and the way it leads to bad losses or blown leads. Sometimes we escape like Game 3 tonite due to our superior talent and our defense. But we win in spite of Joe's offense, not because of it.

Some similar opinions include:

Charles Barkley: Brings up the bad shot selection and stagnant offense the team falls into on a regular basis.

ESPN Tim Bontemps: That Boston still hasn't quite shaken all of its bad habits but still has enough talent to close out this series. The fourth quarter was a highlight reel of Boston's past issues -- poor offensive execution, lapses in concentration and overall head-scratching decision-making. But after giving up a 22-2 run that got Dallas back within a point, Boston was able to lock in defensively down the stretch. It was enough to move the Celtics one win away from an NBA-record 18th championship -- even if it became far more stressful than it should have been.

ESPN Brian Windhorst: The Celtics are finally over the hump, and they have one hand on banner No. 18. They had to survive their late-game demons. Boston has lost a handful of playoff games in this exact fashion over the past several years, and during that 20-2 run in the fourth quarter there was that old sick feeling. But the Celtics' stars all made a play or two -- and collectively, that was enough, mostly because they now have so many stars.

Almost everything you have in bold there is more of a reflection of what the players are doing than bad coaching.

[tenn_smoothie]

You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.

As I said, I am hardly alone in my opinion on Joe's offense and the way it leads to bad losses or blown leads. Sometimes we escape like Game 3 tonite due to our superior talent and our defense. But we win in spite of Joe's offense, not because of it.

Some similar opinions include:

Charles Barkley: Brings up the bad shot selection and stagnant offense the team falls into on a regular basis.

ESPN Tim Bontemps: That Boston still hasn't quite shaken all of its bad habits but still has enough talent to close out this series. The fourth quarter was a highlight reel of Boston's past issues -- poor offensive execution, lapses in concentration and overall head-scratching decision-making. But after giving up a 22-2 run that got Dallas back within a point, Boston was able to lock in defensively down the stretch. It was enough to move the Celtics one win away from an NBA-record 18th championship -- even if it became far more stressful than it should have been.

ESPN Brian Windhorst: The Celtics are finally over the hump, and they have one hand on banner No. 18. They had to survive their late-game demons. Boston has lost a handful of playoff games in this exact fashion over the past several years, and during that 20-2 run in the fourth quarter there was that old sick feeling. But the Celtics' stars all made a play or two -- and collectively, that was enough, mostly because they now have so many stars.

Almost everything you have in bold there is more of a reflection of what the players are doing than bad coaching.

Good Lord, offensive scheme and player decisions are a product of what the coach tells them to do and what is taught in practice.
Joe is not telling them to stop the one-on-one 3-point shooting. He has stated several times that he considers them to be good shots.