Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[green_bballers13]

Ryen Russillo was on the pregame show with Eddie House and Scal. He was trying to be diplomatic when discussing those fans that thought they could evaluate Joe?s coaching by talking about 3 pointers and timeouts. He stated that the management group is smart and doesn?t deserve to be criticized for making a bad decision by re-upping Joe.

Instead of targeting management for dumb decisions, I think we can call out people saying that Joe is a bad coach.

To be clear, you can't "call out" any fans on here.

Are we allowed to argue with the loud minority of fans that spread negative stuff about Joe, based on an incomplete understanding of the game?

I think we should be able to engage with those that have inaccurately put the Celtics down this year.

To be specific, the two comments were that Joe is a bottom 5 coach and JB doesn?t contribute to winning.

Honestly, there are some takes on this board that just aren't worth engaging with.  Those are two of them.  "This team is mentally weak" is another one I've seen. 

JB is a dang good player and we need him.  Evidence is mounting that Joe can, in fact, coach the sport of basketball.  And this team is tough as nails.

The Joe got KP hurt take is up there as well.

Not really, since it's factual.  If Joe took KP out as soon as he injured his ankle, he wouldn't have subsequently strained his calf.

Nah- it is your opinion. We just don?t know how injured KP was. We know that he took 38 days off, but who knows when he could have been back if the team needed him. Blaming Joe for a KP injury is odd, considering KP is hurt a lot. If KP was seriously hurt, he would have gone down like Durant when he tore his Achilles against Toronto. Instead, he walked off the court both times.

We know from KP that he initially injured his ankle, tried to play through it, overcompensated, and injured his calf.

Those are the facts as told by KP.  That matches the video evidence.

Are you disputing that the calf injury was "serious"?  That's an odd argument.  Guys don't just take a month off in the middle of the playoffs.

 

Yes, I'm disputing how serious the calf injury was. He came back and was electric. If that was a serious injury, he wouldn't have been back with such pop. I think he could have been back for the Cavs or Pacers. They were cautious with him because he's often injured.

And yes, this isn't a normal playoff run. The Celtics are stacked 1-6 and are much better than the Cavs, Pacers, and Mavs. If the Celtics needed KP, he would have played through injuries like Luka.

edit: KP in a post-game interview said that there's nothing serious, and he played through it. He didn't go back in the game because they didn't need him to win.

[Roy H.]

Ryen Russillo was on the pregame show with Eddie House and Scal. He was trying to be diplomatic when discussing those fans that thought they could evaluate Joe?s coaching by talking about 3 pointers and timeouts. He stated that the management group is smart and doesn?t deserve to be criticized for making a bad decision by re-upping Joe.

Instead of targeting management for dumb decisions, I think we can call out people saying that Joe is a bad coach.

To be clear, you can't "call out" any fans on here.

Are we allowed to argue with the loud minority of fans that spread negative stuff about Joe, based on an incomplete understanding of the game?

I think we should be able to engage with those that have inaccurately put the Celtics down this year.

To be specific, the two comments were that Joe is a bottom 5 coach and JB doesn?t contribute to winning.

Honestly, there are some takes on this board that just aren't worth engaging with.  Those are two of them.  "This team is mentally weak" is another one I've seen. 

JB is a dang good player and we need him.  Evidence is mounting that Joe can, in fact, coach the sport of basketball.  And this team is tough as nails.

The Joe got KP hurt take is up there as well.

Not really, since it's factual.  If Joe took KP out as soon as he injured his ankle, he wouldn't have subsequently strained his calf.

Nah- it is your opinion. We just don?t know how injured KP was. We know that he took 38 days off, but who knows when he could have been back if the team needed him. Blaming Joe for a KP injury is odd, considering KP is hurt a lot. If KP was seriously hurt, he would have gone down like Durant when he tore his Achilles against Toronto. Instead, he walked off the court both times.

We know from KP that he initially injured his ankle, tried to play through it, overcompensated, and injured his calf.

Those are the facts as told by KP.  That matches the video evidence.

Are you disputing that the calf injury was "serious"?  That's an odd argument.  Guys don't just take a month off in the middle of the playoffs.

 

Yes, I'm disputing how serious the calf injury was. He came back and was electric. If that was a serious injury, he wouldn't have been back with such pop. I think he could have been back for the Cavs or Pacers. They were cautious with him because he's often injured.

And yes, this isn't a normal playoff run. The Celtics are stacked 1-6 and are much better than the Cavs, Pacers, and Mavs. If the Celtics needed KP, he would have played through injuries like Luka.

edit: KP in a post-game interview said that there's nothing serious, and he played through it. He didn't go back in the game because they didn't need him to win.

Yeah, that's silly.  NBA teams don't sit starters for five weeks during the playoffs with minor injuries.

[green_bballers13]

Ryen Russillo was on the pregame show with Eddie House and Scal. He was trying to be diplomatic when discussing those fans that thought they could evaluate Joe?s coaching by talking about 3 pointers and timeouts. He stated that the management group is smart and doesn?t deserve to be criticized for making a bad decision by re-upping Joe.

Instead of targeting management for dumb decisions, I think we can call out people saying that Joe is a bad coach.

To be clear, you can't "call out" any fans on here.

Are we allowed to argue with the loud minority of fans that spread negative stuff about Joe, based on an incomplete understanding of the game?

I think we should be able to engage with those that have inaccurately put the Celtics down this year.

To be specific, the two comments were that Joe is a bottom 5 coach and JB doesn?t contribute to winning.

Honestly, there are some takes on this board that just aren't worth engaging with.  Those are two of them.  "This team is mentally weak" is another one I've seen. 

JB is a dang good player and we need him.  Evidence is mounting that Joe can, in fact, coach the sport of basketball.  And this team is tough as nails.

The Joe got KP hurt take is up there as well.

Not really, since it's factual.  If Joe took KP out as soon as he injured his ankle, he wouldn't have subsequently strained his calf.

Nah- it is your opinion. We just don?t know how injured KP was. We know that he took 38 days off, but who knows when he could have been back if the team needed him. Blaming Joe for a KP injury is odd, considering KP is hurt a lot. If KP was seriously hurt, he would have gone down like Durant when he tore his Achilles against Toronto. Instead, he walked off the court both times.

We know from KP that he initially injured his ankle, tried to play through it, overcompensated, and injured his calf.

Those are the facts as told by KP.  That matches the video evidence.

Are you disputing that the calf injury was "serious"?  That's an odd argument.  Guys don't just take a month off in the middle of the playoffs.

 

Yes, I'm disputing how serious the calf injury was. He came back and was electric. If that was a serious injury, he wouldn't have been back with such pop. I think he could have been back for the Cavs or Pacers. They were cautious with him because he's often injured.

And yes, this isn't a normal playoff run. The Celtics are stacked 1-6 and are much better than the Cavs, Pacers, and Mavs. If the Celtics needed KP, he would have played through injuries like Luka.

edit: KP in a post-game interview said that there's nothing serious, and he played through it. He didn't go back in the game because they didn't need him to win.

Yeah, that's silly.  NBA teams don't sit starters for five weeks during the playoffs with minor injuries.

They do if they end up playing cupcakes. If they were challenged one time during the Cavs and Pacers series, KP would have been in there.

The Celtics can't control who they play. It just worked out that they weren't tested before the Finals.

[Roy H.]

Ryen Russillo was on the pregame show with Eddie House and Scal. He was trying to be diplomatic when discussing those fans that thought they could evaluate Joe?s coaching by talking about 3 pointers and timeouts. He stated that the management group is smart and doesn?t deserve to be criticized for making a bad decision by re-upping Joe.

Instead of targeting management for dumb decisions, I think we can call out people saying that Joe is a bad coach.

To be clear, you can't "call out" any fans on here.

Are we allowed to argue with the loud minority of fans that spread negative stuff about Joe, based on an incomplete understanding of the game?

I think we should be able to engage with those that have inaccurately put the Celtics down this year.

To be specific, the two comments were that Joe is a bottom 5 coach and JB doesn?t contribute to winning.

Honestly, there are some takes on this board that just aren't worth engaging with.  Those are two of them.  "This team is mentally weak" is another one I've seen. 

JB is a dang good player and we need him.  Evidence is mounting that Joe can, in fact, coach the sport of basketball.  And this team is tough as nails.

The Joe got KP hurt take is up there as well.

Not really, since it's factual.  If Joe took KP out as soon as he injured his ankle, he wouldn't have subsequently strained his calf.

Nah- it is your opinion. We just don?t know how injured KP was. We know that he took 38 days off, but who knows when he could have been back if the team needed him. Blaming Joe for a KP injury is odd, considering KP is hurt a lot. If KP was seriously hurt, he would have gone down like Durant when he tore his Achilles against Toronto. Instead, he walked off the court both times.

We know from KP that he initially injured his ankle, tried to play through it, overcompensated, and injured his calf.

Those are the facts as told by KP.  That matches the video evidence.

Are you disputing that the calf injury was "serious"?  That's an odd argument.  Guys don't just take a month off in the middle of the playoffs.

 

Yes, I'm disputing how serious the calf injury was. He came back and was electric. If that was a serious injury, he wouldn't have been back with such pop. I think he could have been back for the Cavs or Pacers. They were cautious with him because he's often injured.

And yes, this isn't a normal playoff run. The Celtics are stacked 1-6 and are much better than the Cavs, Pacers, and Mavs. If the Celtics needed KP, he would have played through injuries like Luka.

edit: KP in a post-game interview said that there's nothing serious, and he played through it. He didn't go back in the game because they didn't need him to win.

Yeah, that's silly.  NBA teams don't sit starters for five weeks during the playoffs with minor injuries.

They do if they end up playing cupcakes. If they were challenged one time during the Cavs and Pacers series, KP would have been in there.

The Celtics can't control who they play. It just worked out that they weren't tested before the Finals.

Just because you declare something doesn't make it true.  At least other posters on this board who make wild claims point to some evidence of their theories.

Can you point to one example in NBA history where a team sat a starter for that long in the playoffs despite them being well enough to play?

KP had the same injury Giannis did, and he couldn't go.    Maybe the Bucks were just disrespecting their opponent, too, and Giannis was good enough to go the whole time.

[green_bballers13]

Ryen Russillo was on the pregame show with Eddie House and Scal. He was trying to be diplomatic when discussing those fans that thought they could evaluate Joe?s coaching by talking about 3 pointers and timeouts. He stated that the management group is smart and doesn?t deserve to be criticized for making a bad decision by re-upping Joe.

Instead of targeting management for dumb decisions, I think we can call out people saying that Joe is a bad coach.

To be clear, you can't "call out" any fans on here.

Are we allowed to argue with the loud minority of fans that spread negative stuff about Joe, based on an incomplete understanding of the game?

I think we should be able to engage with those that have inaccurately put the Celtics down this year.

To be specific, the two comments were that Joe is a bottom 5 coach and JB doesn?t contribute to winning.

Honestly, there are some takes on this board that just aren't worth engaging with.  Those are two of them.  "This team is mentally weak" is another one I've seen. 

JB is a dang good player and we need him.  Evidence is mounting that Joe can, in fact, coach the sport of basketball.  And this team is tough as nails.

The Joe got KP hurt take is up there as well.

Not really, since it's factual.  If Joe took KP out as soon as he injured his ankle, he wouldn't have subsequently strained his calf.

Nah- it is your opinion. We just don?t know how injured KP was. We know that he took 38 days off, but who knows when he could have been back if the team needed him. Blaming Joe for a KP injury is odd, considering KP is hurt a lot. If KP was seriously hurt, he would have gone down like Durant when he tore his Achilles against Toronto. Instead, he walked off the court both times.

We know from KP that he initially injured his ankle, tried to play through it, overcompensated, and injured his calf.

Those are the facts as told by KP.  That matches the video evidence.

Are you disputing that the calf injury was "serious"?  That's an odd argument.  Guys don't just take a month off in the middle of the playoffs.

 

Yes, I'm disputing how serious the calf injury was. He came back and was electric. If that was a serious injury, he wouldn't have been back with such pop. I think he could have been back for the Cavs or Pacers. They were cautious with him because he's often injured.

And yes, this isn't a normal playoff run. The Celtics are stacked 1-6 and are much better than the Cavs, Pacers, and Mavs. If the Celtics needed KP, he would have played through injuries like Luka.

edit: KP in a post-game interview said that there's nothing serious, and he played through it. He didn't go back in the game because they didn't need him to win.

Yeah, that's silly.  NBA teams don't sit starters for five weeks during the playoffs with minor injuries.

They do if they end up playing cupcakes. If they were challenged one time during the Cavs and Pacers series, KP would have been in there.

The Celtics can't control who they play. It just worked out that they weren't tested before the Finals.

Just because you declare something doesn't make it true.

Can you point to one example in NBA history where a team sat a starter for that long in the playoffs despite them being well enough to play?

KP had the same injury Giannis did, and he couldn't go.    Maybe the Bucks were just disrespecting their opponent, too, and Giannis was good enough to go the whole time.

I get your point, I just disagree with it.

I can't remember a team this stacked with a 7'3 center that shoots the lights out sitting him in the playoffs. Zinger is a unicorn (maybe Wemby is too).

I don't think that means that the Celtics were disrespecting their opponents. They won in 5 games, 5 games, and 4 games. They played hard, despite some shooting woes from their best player. I don't see any disrespect coming from the Celtics.

[Big333223]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

[Neurotic Guy]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

It?s also to the point that some posters aren?t just making suggestions - wondering if Joe should do x or y. They are calling him a moron and incompetent for not doing what the poster thinks he should do.  IMO that?s over the top criticism and also over the top self-confidence.

[green_bballers13]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

It?s also to the point that some posters aren?t just making suggestions - wondering if Joe should do x or y. They are calling him a moron and incompetent for not doing what the poster thinks he should do.  IMO that?s over the top criticism and also over the top self-confidence.

TP. This has been my biggest take-away from this thread. The only reason that I have been outspoken regarding the anti-Joe rhetoric is because people have been harshly criticizing him for things that either aren't his fault or even true at all (we shoot too many 3 pointers, rotations are bad, etc). Zach Lowe and others paid to cover the sport have said that Joe has been impressive. His team has bought in.

He has set the defensive mindset for this squad. Last year, Malcolm Brogdon said ?a few guys told me that he was sort of the mastermind behind our defense and everything in the Finals, and his game plan, his adjustments, and his scouting reports were really good,? Brogdon said.

Yet some fans still think he is a bad coach.

Opinions are not facts, and people aren't incompetent just because you don't like them.

[liam]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

It?s also to the point that some posters aren?t just making suggestions - wondering if Joe should do x or y. They are calling him a moron and incompetent for not doing what the poster thinks he should do.  IMO that?s over the top criticism and also over the top self-confidence.

TP. This has been my biggest take-away from this thread. The only reason that I have been outspoken regarding the anti-Joe rhetoric is because people have been harshly criticizing him for things that either aren't his fault or even true at all (we shoot too many 3 pointers, rotations are bad, etc). Zach Lowe and others paid to cover the sport have said that Joe has been impressive. His team has bought in.

He has set the defensive mindset for this squad. Last year, Malcolm Brogdon said ?a few guys told me that he was sort of the mastermind behind our defense and everything in the Finals, and his game plan, his adjustments, and his scouting reports were really good,? Brogdon said.

Yet some fans still think he is a bad coach.

Opinions are not facts, and people aren't incompetent just because you don't like them.

Well said.

[ozgod]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

Game thread is entertainment to me...like the dude screaming next to you at the Garden...not exactly the place for rational takes 

[Roy H.]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

I think of Joe this year like Doc in 2008.  Is Doc a good coach?  Many would say no, but the team played hard for him and maintained focus.  He was a good coach for that team.

[Vermont Green]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

It?s also to the point that some posters aren?t just making suggestions - wondering if Joe should do x or y. They are calling him a moron and incompetent for not doing what the poster thinks he should do.  IMO that?s over the top criticism and also over the top self-confidence.

These coaching genius's that are so critical have the benefit of second guessing.  He is a moron every time there is a missed shot or a turnover.  Every bad possession is Joe's fault.  Every win is in spite of Joe. It takes a coach a long time to build up the "capital" where he will get the benefit of the doubt.  Joe is not close to that yet, he is a very young coach.  He has a long way to go before he will gain that kind of coaching status.  And that is perfectly fair.

What is likely to happen, assuming that the Celtics continue to have team success over the next 2-5 games, is that Mazzulla will be overly elevated as a coach.  He will go from being a coach who does not get the credit that he deserves (in my opinion) to a coach who will be overhype by the league/fans overall.

It takes some time for any coach to define their legacy.  Doc was a good example.  I thought Doc was a really good coach.  He had some great success with some young scrappy ORL teams.  Then he led a wily veteran team to a title.  Then he kind of hit the wall.  How good of a coach Mazzulla is will take years to define.  But to me, it is pretty clear that he is not a bad coach.

[Roy H.]

Also thinking about Doc, his most successful year was the season he had Thibs as an assistant.  I'll be curious to see what impact, if any, Charles Lee's departure has.

[green_bballers13]

There's just no argument anymore that Mazzulla is a bad coach. Last night in the game thread people were blaming Mazzulla for the Celtics missing wide open shots. It's fallen to that level.

The reality is the won a game last night when they couldn't hit water falling out of a boat because they were rock-solid in most other aspects of the game. That points to good coaching.

I think of Joe this year like Doc in 2008.  Is Doc a good coach?  Many would say no, but the team played hard for him and maintained focus.  He was a good coach for that team.

Again, no one has said that Joe is great or even all that good. They are stating that he's not a bottom 5 coach.

The 1999-00 NBA Coach of the Year, Rivers was named one of the 15 Greatest Coaches in NBA history in 2022 by a panel of 43 current and former NBA head coaches in collaboration with the National Basketball Coaches Association.

If you said that Doc was a bottom 5 coach, many would roll their eyes.

[#1P4P]

If coaching were a pie chart, team preparation would take up the vast majority of the pie. We only see the results of it.

The in game adjustment slice would be the smallest piece. People see it and think it?s the biggest.

It?s like saying Thibodeau is a bad coach, while he has former bench players winning #2 seeds, playoff games, and advancing through rounds in the playoffs. Of course, he has his warts, but he also has his teams consistently punching above their weight class.

Joe has the highest winning percentage for a Regular Season HC and is on the cusp of winning the NBA Championship in his second season. He was given a great opportunity on short notice and has risen to the occasion. Good luck to the nitpickers, that argument will only get tougher from here.