Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[radiohead]

I thought it was interesting that when Doc Rivers played House over McDaniels, (15 minutes of total playing time) he was a hailed a genius, coaching circles around Joe.  Now Joe makes an adjustment that seems to have directly impacted the outcome of a critical game and everyone is like, about time, we won in spite of Joe, and so on.

RWill has not been playing well this playoff.  His impact numbers for ATL and this series are bad, at least until this last game.  Everyone is picking apart the defense and offense advanced stats.  To me, it is very clear.  Our defense is better when RWill plays (in place of White) but our offense is worse.  I don't see that as an indication of emphasis, it was more about what RWill could give the team or was giving the team.  It is no surprise that our offense is worse and defense better when RWill plays.

It definitely changed things for the PHI offense with RWill clogging the lane and defending drives.  He wasn't doing that all along though.  And when he gets drawn out, he has a tough time.  I am not really sure what his problem was in the ATL series.  RWill was -9, in a series where the team was +32 overall, he was not impacting the game.  In the PHI series, RWill is +39 (+18 last game) and Horford is -3.  It is one level of adjustment to deploy a different 8th guy for one game in a playoff series, it is a very different level of adjustment to change a starter.

Chicken/egg dilemma.

Was Rob playing poorly because he was simply playing poorly, or because he was being misused? Probably a bit of both, but given that we have an entire year of data last year that highlights his success in the two big lineup, to me it seems clear that it’s more the latter, at least with this matchup.

When Rob is the lone big out there, he’s much more vulnerable to getting picked on in mismatches, as well as less effective due to having to stick to his primary guy more and being able to play less of the safety role. He’s certainly been God-awful in the PnR coverage, which, again, is a question of individual performance vs awful drop coverage scheme.

But that happens far less as the second big out there with Timelord given that he’s on Tucker, which allows for much more cheating off of him and helping with the PnR ball handler given Tucker isn’t a threat to score.

What I still don’t understand, though, is why he seems to be so much less of a lob threat when playing the single big role. I can’t figure out why he seems to provide more vertical spacing in the double big lineup over the single big lineup.

Yeah, Joe just didn't give the two big lineup a chance, despite it being extremely successful in the regular season.  From the above article:

Williams and Al Horford had played just one minute together with the starters in the entire series prior to Game 6

“It made a tremendous difference,” Jaylen Brown said. “It don’t take a professional to see the difference that Rob makes. You put him similar in that role he played last year where he can trust his instincts, make plays, even him tipping the ball out on rebounds and stuff like that. I feel like Rob felt a lot more comfortable out there in that double big.”

“I was happy that that happened,” Al Horford added. “We just know the impact that Rob has. When Rob’s not in there, I feel like a lot falls on my shoulders. When he’s out there, I know that he’s got my back and I can be a little more aggressive, I can do different things.”

Rob's best play is with Horford next to him.  That seems very clear to both observers and players.

You think this is due to the fact that Joe likes to have five three point shooters to start the game? That he values offense more than defense? I mean he did say something in one interview that the team’s transition defense was bad because their offense sputtered, or something to that effect.

[MattyIce]

sorry i haven't read through these pages but has someone brought up Smart's comments to the media after game 6 regarding Joe?

[Yuckabuck33]

sorry i haven't read through these pages but has someone brought up Smart's comments to the media after game 6 regarding Joe?

Do tell

[CelticSooner]

sorry i haven't read through these pages but has someone brought up Smart's comments to the media after game 6 regarding Joe?

Yes. It doesn't exactly make you feel all warm inside.

[Roy H.]

I thought it was interesting that when Doc Rivers played House over McDaniels, (15 minutes of total playing time) he was a hailed a genius, coaching circles around Joe.  Now Joe makes an adjustment that seems to have directly impacted the outcome of a critical game and everyone is like, about time, we won in spite of Joe, and so on.

RWill has not been playing well this playoff.  His impact numbers for ATL and this series are bad, at least until this last game.  Everyone is picking apart the defense and offense advanced stats.  To me, it is very clear.  Our defense is better when RWill plays (in place of White) but our offense is worse.  I don't see that as an indication of emphasis, it was more about what RWill could give the team or was giving the team.  It is no surprise that our offense is worse and defense better when RWill plays.

It definitely changed things for the PHI offense with RWill clogging the lane and defending drives.  He wasn't doing that all along though.  And when he gets drawn out, he has a tough time.  I am not really sure what his problem was in the ATL series.  RWill was -9, in a series where the team was +32 overall, he was not impacting the game.  In the PHI series, RWill is +39 (+18 last game) and Horford is -3.  It is one level of adjustment to deploy a different 8th guy for one game in a playoff series, it is a very different level of adjustment to change a starter.

Chicken/egg dilemma.

Was Rob playing poorly because he was simply playing poorly, or because he was being misused? Probably a bit of both, but given that we have an entire year of data last year that highlights his success in the two big lineup, to me it seems clear that it’s more the latter, at least with this matchup.

When Rob is the lone big out there, he’s much more vulnerable to getting picked on in mismatches, as well as less effective due to having to stick to his primary guy more and being able to play less of the safety role. He’s certainly been God-awful in the PnR coverage, which, again, is a question of individual performance vs awful drop coverage scheme.

But that happens far less as the second big out there with Timelord given that he’s on Tucker, which allows for much more cheating off of him and helping with the PnR ball handler given Tucker isn’t a threat to score.

What I still don’t understand, though, is why he seems to be so much less of a lob threat when playing the single big role. I can’t figure out why he seems to provide more vertical spacing in the double big lineup over the single big lineup.

Yeah, Joe just didn't give the two big lineup a chance, despite it being extremely successful in the regular season.  From the above article:

Williams and Al Horford had played just one minute together with the starters in the entire series prior to Game 6

“It made a tremendous difference,” Jaylen Brown said. “It don’t take a professional to see the difference that Rob makes. You put him similar in that role he played last year where he can trust his instincts, make plays, even him tipping the ball out on rebounds and stuff like that. I feel like Rob felt a lot more comfortable out there in that double big.”

“I was happy that that happened,” Al Horford added. “We just know the impact that Rob has. When Rob’s not in there, I feel like a lot falls on my shoulders. When he’s out there, I know that he’s got my back and I can be a little more aggressive, I can do different things.”

Rob's best play is with Horford next to him.  That seems very clear to both observers and players.

You think this is due to the fact that Joe likes to have five three point shooters to start the game? That he values offense more than defense? I mean he did say something in one interview that the team’s transition defense was bad because their offense sputtered, or something to that effect.

I think that's his thought process. I also think that it is an extremely flawed one, and the team seems to agree.

[Neurotic Guy]

Rob will be playing in his 13th straight game on Sunday.  I’m not sure the last time he’s played that many in a row.  His max was 5 in a row this season.

[Kuberski33]

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/05/marcus-smart-admits-joe-mazzulla-deserved-criticism-before-game-6-adjustments.html

Reading this MassLive piece, it seems clear that some of Joe’s struggles have clearly been recognized by the team, and there seems to be some frustration for the deviations from what worked so well last year, particularly with Timelord.

That said, they still sound supportive and seem to be embracing this as more of a collaborative thing trying to help Joe along, especially with the brain drain on the bench. Have to say, I absolutely hate that we’re in this position thanks to a combination of Ime, Brad, and Joe himself, but it’s good to see that the guys are stepping up, acknowledging the issue, abd embracing it to still try and succeed.

Then the question needs to be asked for Brad and ownership about why they didn't give him more help on the bench? Brad had Ron Adams his first season here, so you would think he would understand that. Unless he didn't think Adams helped him much.  And if Stoudemire provided that type of help he should never have been allowed to leave until the season ends.

[Yuckabuck33]

My favorite is Jaylen Brown saying, " It don't take a professional to see...." i took that as a shot at Joe.

[ozgod]

sorry i haven't read through these pages but has someone brought up Smart's comments to the media after game 6 regarding Joe?

I don't think it's as bad as some people here are suggesting, that Smart mocked Joe by saying he rightfully deserved to be criticized. I think he was trying to say that they ended Game 4 bad, then they had a terrible Game 5 but made adjustments for Game 6 (probably the Timelord lineup change), Joe got criticized for his decisions and rightfully so, but he made amends and that's all you can expect from someone and they are all in it together, learning together. Whatever was said in public I'm sure much worse was said in private, which is how teams should be with each other - brutally honest.

If you look at the chain of communications:

Marcus after Game 5

“We still believe in our coach,” Smart told Heavy.com’s Steve Bulpett following Boston’s 115-103 loss on Tuesday. “We believe in Joe to the fullest. We haven’t lost faith in him and we won’t. He has a game plan; it’s on us to go out and execute it. We’re the ones out there playing, so we’ve got to help him. He’s been doing great.”

“It’s everybody. It happens,” Smart said. “We get so much [expletive] talked about us as players, and we need to be held accountable. The coaches, too.

“But just because things aren’t going right, it’s not just one person’s fault. It’s not his fault, and it’s not my fault, it’s not Jayson’s fault, it’s not Jaylen’s fault — it’s everybody’s fault. It’s a full team, and we’ve got to figure it out together.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/marcus-smart-defends-joe-mazzulla-following-celtics-game-5-loss-we-haven-t-lost-faith-in-him/ar-AA1b0MDH

Marcus after Game 6

“I was ecstatic about it,” Smart said of the starting lineup change. “To be able to have Rob in there, he changes the game a lot. Being able to have a lob threat, a rim threat, to be able to protect the rim on the other end. He’s huge for us. And I was proud to have him on the court.

“And that just goes to show you Joe’s learning just like all of us. I know he’s been killed a lot, rightfully so. He needs to make some adjustments and he did that. And that’s all you can ask for. Just continue to be the best he can be. And it takes everybody. It’s a full team effort.”

While making the surprising admission about Mazzulla, Smart made sure to praise his coach for the job he’s done all year and how they’ve helped him along the way.

“It’s different,” Smart said. “But it helps us as players. When you think about in the grand scheme, we’re teaching him, as well. We’re teaching ourselves. We get to learn more about ourselves. It allows Jayson, it allows Jaylen, it allows me to be more vocal on the court and to go figure things out, we’re doing it together. It’s not going to be perfect - Joe’s not perfect. He’s been put in a very tough situation this year, and he’s doing the best he can. That’s all we can ask for. We’re going to continue to go out there and work our tails off for him, just like he’s going to continue to work his tail off for us.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/marcus-smart-admits-joe-mazzulla-deserved-criticism-before-game-6-adjustments/ar-AA1b5Bmz

Joe after Game 6, after Marcus's comments:

After the 95-86 win, head coach Joe Mazzulla spoke highly of the veteran guard's impact.

"He got the pace going for us from start to finish," Mazzulla said. "He did a great job of keeping us poised. He was the quarterback of our defense, him and Rob."

"When Smart can dictate the pace like that and get us into offense and get us into spacing and just play with that level of toughness, it was contagious. He's one of our emotional leaders."

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/joe-mazzulla-heaps-praise-marcus-smart-after-stellar-game-6-vs-sixers

Tatum after Game 6:

“Me and Joe, we talk, I don’t want to say separately, but there’s moments throughout this season (when) things going great, things not going great,” Tatum said. “Sometimes we just pull each other to the side and I’ve done that to him, right? In his first year, he’s done an unbelievable job. I know there’s a lot of questions and doubts. I told him a lot of times like, ‘Yo, I got you. I got your back. We in this together.’ I love that relationship that me and Joe have.”

https://theathletic.com/4512906/2023/05/12/celtics-jayson-tatum-76ers-game7/

Smart is nothing if not honest. There was probably some divided opinions in the group about going back to the two-big lineup. Joe probably wanted to stick with White because he's an offensive minded coach and White spaces the floor better than Timelord and allows them to play a five out offense. But the players know the value of having Timelord there to help protect the rim, even at the cost of spacing. They obviously scored less points in G6 than they typically do but they kept Philly to an even lower total, so from that point of view they were vindicated. And I have a feeling that because (I think, obviously I have no proof) Joe hasn't really created that separation between the coach and the players, that the senior players see themselves as somewhat of an equal partner with their coach, and so they feel free to criticize him like they would other players. He's kind of more like an elder brother, a buddy, than a dad in terms of how they see him (the age disparity and his being a rookie probably doesn't help either). In any case Smartacus made sure to take some of the blame himself, kind of a "we're all in it together" approach.

I agree with @jpotter's read of things:

https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/05/marcus-smart-admits-joe-mazzulla-deserved-criticism-before-game-6-adjustments.html

Reading this MassLive piece, it seems clear that some of Joe’s struggles have clearly been recognized by the team, and there seems to be some frustration for the deviations from what worked so well last year, particularly with Timelord.

That said, they still sound supportive and seem to be embracing this as more of a collaborative thing trying to help Joe along, especially with the brain drain on the bench. Have to say, I absolutely hate that we’re in this position thanks to a combination of Ime, Brad, and Joe himself, but it’s good to see that the guys are stepping up, acknowledging the issue, abd embracing it to still try and succeed.

BUT...I agree it's so much more fun and juicy speculating about a rift in the team and maybe some chairs being thrown around after the next loss 

[tenn_smoothie]

This is all well and good and Smart's comments were both interesting and somewhat encouraging.

But if they are "all in this together, working our butts off for each other" on and on,
then how does Marcus explain the team's mentality in Game 5, the most important of the playoffs this year so far ?
They came out flat and unmotivated, like they could not have cared any less about a win, about a title.

[Who]

I took Smart's comments along the line of "we all deserved to be criticized after that" "we all deserve to be criticized when lose that badly" even the head coach / including the head coach. We stunk and we deserved criticism.

I didn't think Smart was having a go at him.

[ozgod]

This is all well and good and Smart's comments were both interesting and somewhat encouraging.

But if they are "all in this together, working our butts off for each other" on and on,
then how does Marcus explain the team's mentality in Game 5, the most important of the playoffs this year so far ?
They came out flat and unmotivated, like they could not have cared any less about a win, about a title.

I suspect thst was one of the collective fails that Marcus was talking about - Mazzulla failing to prepare them to succeed and them failing to seize the moment. In that sense it really was a failure at all levels. Kind of like the Suns last season And this season Game 7. Let’s hope they realize they don’t have all that many fails left before they run out of fails 

[ozgod]

I took Smart's comments along the line of "we all deserved to be criticized after that" "we all deserve to be criticized when lose that badly" even the head coach / including the head coach. We stunk and we deserved criticism.

I didn't think Smart was having a go at him.

When he said “we all need to be held accountable…even coaches” I took thst to mean there’s been some brutal honesty directed joes way for some of his decisions, like the Timelord one. Thst one seems to have been very popular with the team. And Joe 100% needs to hear it, certainly privately if not publicly. It’s the no way he will learn.

[tenn_smoothie]

I took Smart's comments along the line of "we all deserved to be criticized after that" "we all deserve to be criticized when lose that badly" even the head coach / including the head coach. We stunk and we deserved criticism.

I didn't think Smart was having a go at him.

When he said “we all need to be held accountable…even coaches” I took thst to mean there’s been some brutal honesty directed joes way for some of his decisions, like the Timelord one. Thst one seems to have been very popular with the team. And Joe 100% needs to hear it, certainly privately if not publicly. It’s the no way he will learn.

If Joe was willing to learn and was more receptive to criticism, yes. But he has been stubborn and petty about his decisions and strategies. It took us all the way thru the regular season to Game 6 of the 2nd round for him to consider making a change toward playing better defense ?  We are all feeling optimistic after the Game 6 win, but if the Celts fall flat in Game 7, the pitchforks will come out again. I still don't see this guy coaching us thru four playoff matchups and winning a title and I hope that I am very wrong.

[Celtic_Pride777]

The knee-jerky Suns owner fired a two-time coach of the year in four years -- including a trip to the 2021 NBA Finals. Should Brad give a call to Monty Williams?