Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Celtics2021]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

[SparzWizard]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

Always budget budget budget. Like c'mon if you wanna win chips, don't cheap out!

[Kernewek]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

We're well beyond speculation at this point but considering Stoudemire was the top assistant for Udoka, are we confident that Mazza would have left if he didn't get the HC gig?

Obviously Stevens et al have their reasons for choosing one coach over another, but I'm not convinced that making Stoudemire the HC would have resulted in Joe looking for a role with another organisation.

[angryguy77]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

We're well beyond speculation at this point but considering Stoudemire was the top assistant for Udoka, are we confident that Mazza would have left if he didn't get the HC gig?

Obviously Stevens et al have their reasons for choosing one coach over another, but I'm not convinced that making Stoudemire the HC would have resulted in Joe looking for a role with another organisation.

Joe worked as an assistent for 2 years, right? So if he felt entitled to take over for a championship ready team after proving nothing, he should've been told to not let the door hit him on the way out.

I hope that's not what went down, because if it is, Brad and Wyc would be dumb enough to hold office.

[Celtics2021]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

We're well beyond speculation at this point but considering Stoudemire was the top assistant for Udoka, are we confident that Mazza would have left if he didn't get the HC gig?

Obviously Stevens et al have their reasons for choosing one coach over another, but I'm not convinced that making Stoudemire the HC would have resulted in Joe looking for a role with another organisation.

I think Brad chose Joe over Stoudemire because he thought Joe was better, based on his observation of both of them over the past years.  I’m saying that decision was a coin flip because you don’t know in advance who would do a better job, and we never will know that because only one of them would get the opportunity.  I don’t think Joe potentially leaving or not mid-year would have been or should have been a consideration, nor would Stoudemire’s.  I was just saying that in choosing Joe, Stevens had limited other options, and there’s no evidence he made the wrong choice, because we don’t have data on how the alternatives would have performed.

[Celtics2021]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

We're well beyond speculation at this point but considering Stoudemire was the top assistant for Udoka, are we confident that Mazza would have left if he didn't get the HC gig?

Obviously Stevens et al have their reasons for choosing one coach over another, but I'm not convinced that making Stoudemire the HC would have resulted in Joe looking for a role with another organisation.

Joe worked as an assistent for 2 years, right? So if he felt entitled to take over for a championship ready team after proving nothing, he should've been told to not let the door hit him on the way out.

I hope that's not what went down, because if it is, Brad and Wyc would be dumb enough to hold office.

I don’t understand where this speculation is even coming from.

[angryguy77]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

We're well beyond speculation at this point but considering Stoudemire was the top assistant for Udoka, are we confident that Mazza would have left if he didn't get the HC gig?

Obviously Stevens et al have their reasons for choosing one coach over another, but I'm not convinced that making Stoudemire the HC would have resulted in Joe looking for a role with another organisation.

Joe worked as an assistent for 2 years, right? So if he felt entitled to take over for a championship ready team after proving nothing, he should've been told to not let the door hit him on the way out.

I hope that's not what went down, because if it is, Brad and Wyc would be dumb enough to hold office.

I don’t understand where this speculation is even coming from.

To be clear, I'm not saying this was the case but just going with the discussion.

[Roy H.]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

I don't agree with the premise.  On the eve of training camp, sure, you might be squeezed into hiring an internal candidate.  But, the team knew the second week of July, I think.  They then blew two months looking for legal cover.

Brad should have contacted all the players in early July, and asked them to come in for a group meeting to discuss candidly the best direction for the team.  They didn't because they didn't want to leak, due to legal cover.  They hid information from their players, because they wanted legal cover.  And, unless there's all kinds of harassment and discrimination in the organization under Wyc (which wouldn't surprise me, based upon what I know of Pagliuca), then the legal exposure for some crude words and a consensual relationship wasn't all that much.

So, hire somebody in July (Snyder, or Vogel, or Cassell, or Lee, or Allen, or Larranaga, etc.).  Or keep Ime.  Or surround Joe with competent veteran assistants.  The Celtics could have done all three.

[Celtics2021]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

I don't agree with the premise.  On the eve of training camp, sure, you might be squeezed into hiring an internal candidate.  But, the team knew the second week of July, I think.  They then blew two months looking for legal cover.

Brad should have contacted all the players in early July, and asked them to come in for a group meeting to discuss candidly the best direction for the team.  They didn't because they didn't want to leak, due to legal cover.  They hid information from their players, because they wanted legal cover.  And, unless there's all kinds of harassment and discrimination in the organization under Wyc (which wouldn't surprise me, based upon what I know of Pagliuca), then the legal exposure for some crude words and a consensual relationship wasn't all that much.

So, hire somebody in July (Snyder, or Vogel, or Cassell, or Lee, or Allen, or Larranaga, etc.).  Or keep Ime.  Or surround Joe with competent veteran assistants.  The Celtics could have done all three.

Your premise relies on a lot of assumptions.  An awful lot of assumptions.  The public statements were that they acquired new information in September that changed the direction of the organization's decision.  We don't know what that new information was, and it's pointless to speculate about it, but the rushed nature of the decision supports that indeed they weren't looking for cover for two months, but rather thought that they'd be moving forward with Udoka as coach for this season.

[Roy H.]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

I don't agree with the premise.  On the eve of training camp, sure, you might be squeezed into hiring an internal candidate.  But, the team knew the second week of July, I think.  They then blew two months looking for legal cover.

Brad should have contacted all the players in early July, and asked them to come in for a group meeting to discuss candidly the best direction for the team.  They didn't because they didn't want to leak, due to legal cover.  They hid information from their players, because they wanted legal cover.  And, unless there's all kinds of harassment and discrimination in the organization under Wyc (which wouldn't surprise me, based upon what I know of Pagliuca), then the legal exposure for some crude words and a consensual relationship wasn't all that much.

So, hire somebody in July (Snyder, or Vogel, or Cassell, or Lee, or Allen, or Larranaga, etc.).  Or keep Ime.  Or surround Joe with competent veteran assistants.  The Celtics could have done all three.

Your premise relies on a lot of assumptions.  An awful lot of assumptions.  The public statements were that they acquired new information in September that changed the direction of the organization's decision.  We don't know what that new information was, and it's pointless to speculate about it, but the rushed nature of the decision supports that indeed they weren't looking for cover for two months, but rather thought that they'd be moving forward with Udoka as coach for this season.

You make an awful lot of assumptions, too.  This incident happened in mid-July.  Ime didn't make any statements after mid-July (when he said the team still needed a wing).  The team didn't make any roster moves between mid-July and immediately before training camp. 

The team was paralyzed.  Either make a decision to keep Ime, or move on.  The worst possible scenario is moving on at the last minute without a good plan in place, which is the option they chose.

Do you have a link to there being important new information in September?

[gouki88]

The stats don't even back Joe up in these situations:

Celtics trailing by 3 or less, in final 30 seconds of 4th Q or OT, of regular season games (per PBP stats) … Coming out of timeout: 17 POSS 23 PTS 5-9 FG 4-9 3PT 1 turnover Plays not following timeouts: 11 POSS 8 PTS 2-6 FG 0-2 3PT 4 turnovers

Of course they don't. He only cares about analytics if it backs up his predetermined course of action. He's stubborn and thinks very highly of his strategies, even in the face of [dang]ing evidence.

Having such an ego despite nothing to warrant it makes me worry

[Celtics2021]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

I don't agree with the premise.  On the eve of training camp, sure, you might be squeezed into hiring an internal candidate.  But, the team knew the second week of July, I think.  They then blew two months looking for legal cover.

Brad should have contacted all the players in early July, and asked them to come in for a group meeting to discuss candidly the best direction for the team.  They didn't because they didn't want to leak, due to legal cover.  They hid information from their players, because they wanted legal cover.  And, unless there's all kinds of harassment and discrimination in the organization under Wyc (which wouldn't surprise me, based upon what I know of Pagliuca), then the legal exposure for some crude words and a consensual relationship wasn't all that much.

So, hire somebody in July (Snyder, or Vogel, or Cassell, or Lee, or Allen, or Larranaga, etc.).  Or keep Ime.  Or surround Joe with competent veteran assistants.  The Celtics could have done all three.

Your premise relies on a lot of assumptions.  An awful lot of assumptions.  The public statements were that they acquired new information in September that changed the direction of the organization's decision.  We don't know what that new information was, and it's pointless to speculate about it, but the rushed nature of the decision supports that indeed they weren't looking for cover for two months, but rather thought that they'd be moving forward with Udoka as coach for this season.

You make an awful lot of assumptions, too.  This incident happened in mid-July.  Ime didn't make any statements after mid-July (when he said the team still needed a wing).  The team didn't make any roster moves between mid-July and immediately before training camp. 

The team was paralyzed.  Either make a decision to keep Ime, or move on.  The worst possible scenario is moving on at the last minute without a good plan in place, which is the option they chose.

Do you have a link to there being important new information in September?

No link, but I watched the entire press conference in September, and they said more than once during it that there were “twists and turns” and that there was recent new information.  I’m sure the press conference is out there somewhere on YouTube if you want to watch it yourself.

[Roy H.]

They may still win in spite of Joe's shortcomings. I hope they do. The talent is there. But, if they lose, Brad and Joe gotta go.

I swear that's the only thing that will shut me up about Joe for the next few months- the C's need to win banner 18 this June lol.

But agreed on the bolded.

I don't feel too strongly about Joe, but Brad is the one who put Brogdon and White on this team. If they lose, it's not his fault. I have no idea what was going on behind the scenes this summer, so I don't know how much Brad's hands were tied.

Bottom line: Stevens put together a team that should win. It's not his fault if they don't.

Mike

Yeah, I've got some issues with the roster construction -- they've needed one more interior big all season long -- but Brad has done a good job with the roster.

We don't have the information to judge him based on his budget and the behind the scenes issues with the coaching staff.  However, *if* Wyc gave him authority to further address the coaching staff via hiring externally -- either for a head coach or veteran assistants -- then Brad gets a chunk of the blame if we don't advance due to Joe.

I think given the circumstances, regardless of what budget he was given, Brad made the correct decision with Joe, with the only other viable options being Stoudemire or himself.  Given the circumstances of Udoka's departure, which were both sudden and secret, the only possible hire would have been internal, as otherwise trust with the players would have been lost.  If Brad didn't want the job himself, and it's clear he didn't, then it was probably a coin flip between Joe and Stoudemire.  As for assistants, they unsuccessfully tried to bring back Larranaga, but I agree with them not bringing in a big name former head coach, as it would have just created more turmoil about whether Mazzulla was just a placeholder for Vogel, Snyder, or whomever else, and that would have undercut any goals for stability.  I do think it a failing that Udoka/Stevens never replaced Hardy.  That should have happened, and I think some of the in-game coaching mistakes are due to the fact that there are simply not enough eyes and heads on the sideline to absorb everything in real time.  This was exacerbated with Udoka's departure and the inability to find a coaching replacement in October, and compounded with Stoudemire leaving in March.  I get not being able to find a qualified assistant in the pre-season or mid-season, but there's really little excuse for not hiring one in July when the first opening presented itself.

I don't agree with the premise.  On the eve of training camp, sure, you might be squeezed into hiring an internal candidate.  But, the team knew the second week of July, I think.  They then blew two months looking for legal cover.

Brad should have contacted all the players in early July, and asked them to come in for a group meeting to discuss candidly the best direction for the team.  They didn't because they didn't want to leak, due to legal cover.  They hid information from their players, because they wanted legal cover.  And, unless there's all kinds of harassment and discrimination in the organization under Wyc (which wouldn't surprise me, based upon what I know of Pagliuca), then the legal exposure for some crude words and a consensual relationship wasn't all that much.

So, hire somebody in July (Snyder, or Vogel, or Cassell, or Lee, or Allen, or Larranaga, etc.).  Or keep Ime.  Or surround Joe with competent veteran assistants.  The Celtics could have done all three.

Your premise relies on a lot of assumptions.  An awful lot of assumptions.  The public statements were that they acquired new information in September that changed the direction of the organization's decision.  We don't know what that new information was, and it's pointless to speculate about it, but the rushed nature of the decision supports that indeed they weren't looking for cover for two months, but rather thought that they'd be moving forward with Udoka as coach for this season.

You make an awful lot of assumptions, too.  This incident happened in mid-July.  Ime didn't make any statements after mid-July (when he said the team still needed a wing).  The team didn't make any roster moves between mid-July and immediately before training camp. 

The team was paralyzed.  Either make a decision to keep Ime, or move on.  The worst possible scenario is moving on at the last minute without a good plan in place, which is the option they chose.

Do you have a link to there being important new information in September?

No link, but I watched the entire press conference in September, and they said more than once during it that there were “twists and turns” and that there was recent new information.  I’m sure the press conference is out there somewhere on YouTube if you want to watch it yourself.

I just listened to it again, all 27 minutes of P.R..  Wyc did mention "twists and turns", but there was nothing about recent information.  And frankly, I don't trust a word Wyc speaks.

[GreenBoomer]

Brad IS responsible for the coaching hire. If owners pushed for an internal option, and Brad didn't agree with their choice, he should have taken the job himself for the betterment of the team. This one is squarely on his shoulders.

[BringToughnessBack]

Game five and flat as hell- First time for me- Adios Joe