Nets, Tsai upset about Cryrie's promotion of antisemitic book, film

[td450]

Well, at least the NBA doesn’t care.

I wonder, if Gordon Hayward linked to a story advocating hatred toward Muslims, would the league do nothing?

I was looking back at this thread and noticed a second reference to Gordon Hayward. Why have you mentioned a white player (that hasn’t been on the team for years) twice in reference to Kyrie/Jaylen?

To me, this seems like Tucker Carlson’s “double standard” rhetoric. “What if a white guy did this?!?”

Why did Gordon make two appearances, and what does he have to do with Jaylen?

There is a double standard.

And this is why you keep trying to connect Jaylen (a player that some of us like) with Kyrie (a player that none of us like)?

Jaylen hasn’t been punished/cancelled and needs to be?

I wasn't going to add this, but the "What if a white guy did this?" needs to be addressed.

Generally speaking, the claims of jewish conspiracy are absurd. It should be noted however that almost all of the weird accusations specific to jews that don't make sense in any other context have actually been done by the larger white society and endured by black people. There was a racially driven intergenerational plot to oppress black people. It all really did happen to them.

Processing that is different, and no matter how woke you are, an overtly race based history that painful brings you very close up to turning it back as racism and anger. Sprinkle in a little Christian faith teaching you a desire to be one of God's chosen people (something many people get caught up in), and you are 95% of the way there. It only takes a nudge to start looking at any particular negative myths towards subgroups of white people, and applying them to the very real pain your families have endured.

That doesn't change the fact that all of this is awful and must be spoken out against. But it does mean that we need to be a bit less sanctimonious about it when it happens. For white people this is all fragility and self indulgence. For black people it's blame for something very real that gets deflected in the wrong direction.

No, I think we can be sanctimonious.  Blacks aren't the only race that have suffered terribly, and certain black supremacists specifically targeting the Jews -- a race that Hitler tried to exterminate, and that has been subject to religion-based war and discrimination for millennia -- should be harshly criticized, without excuse.

I understand the need for grace and understanding, but when you start mitigating one group's racism, then you need to need to apply that standard equally.  Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance.  Blacks got screwed.  So did the Chinese, the Japanese, Native Americans, the Irish, immigrants in general and particularly Hispanics, the Jews, the homosexuals, etc., etc.

Also, I don't think this was your intent at all, but your first paragraph starts with saying most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are nonsense, but then shifts to saying that blacks are truly aggrieved.  It's important to explicitly point out that Jews are not responsible for the suffering of black people.  People who connect that dot -- which has happened frequently in history -- shouldn't be given a pass.  Blaming the Jews for suffering is what leads to the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or millionaire basketball players praising anti-Semites.

The idea that all racial grievance must be dealt with equally is impossible, and hugely self indulgent if you are a white guy.

"Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance. ".

Where is the grace in that? Can't we be a bit smarter, and maybe understand that there is a difference between how Nick Fuentes got there and how Kyrie did? That does not require excusing or promoting Kyrie's point of view at all. It just means a different approach to opposing it. If you actually believe in the need for grace and understanding, that's where you do the work.

[Roy H.]

Well, at least the NBA doesn’t care.

I wonder, if Gordon Hayward linked to a story advocating hatred toward Muslims, would the league do nothing?

I was looking back at this thread and noticed a second reference to Gordon Hayward. Why have you mentioned a white player (that hasn’t been on the team for years) twice in reference to Kyrie/Jaylen?

To me, this seems like Tucker Carlson’s “double standard” rhetoric. “What if a white guy did this?!?”

Why did Gordon make two appearances, and what does he have to do with Jaylen?

There is a double standard.

And this is why you keep trying to connect Jaylen (a player that some of us like) with Kyrie (a player that none of us like)?

Jaylen hasn’t been punished/cancelled and needs to be?

I wasn't going to add this, but the "What if a white guy did this?" needs to be addressed.

Generally speaking, the claims of jewish conspiracy are absurd. It should be noted however that almost all of the weird accusations specific to jews that don't make sense in any other context have actually been done by the larger white society and endured by black people. There was a racially driven intergenerational plot to oppress black people. It all really did happen to them.

Processing that is different, and no matter how woke you are, an overtly race based history that painful brings you very close up to turning it back as racism and anger. Sprinkle in a little Christian faith teaching you a desire to be one of God's chosen people (something many people get caught up in), and you are 95% of the way there. It only takes a nudge to start looking at any particular negative myths towards subgroups of white people, and applying them to the very real pain your families have endured.

That doesn't change the fact that all of this is awful and must be spoken out against. But it does mean that we need to be a bit less sanctimonious about it when it happens. For white people this is all fragility and self indulgence. For black people it's blame for something very real that gets deflected in the wrong direction.

No, I think we can be sanctimonious.  Blacks aren't the only race that have suffered terribly, and certain black supremacists specifically targeting the Jews -- a race that Hitler tried to exterminate, and that has been subject to religion-based war and discrimination for millennia -- should be harshly criticized, without excuse.

I understand the need for grace and understanding, but when you start mitigating one group's racism, then you need to need to apply that standard equally.  Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance.  Blacks got screwed.  So did the Chinese, the Japanese, Native Americans, the Irish, immigrants in general and particularly Hispanics, the Jews, the homosexuals, etc., etc.

Also, I don't think this was your intent at all, but your first paragraph starts with saying most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are nonsense, but then shifts to saying that blacks are truly aggrieved.  It's important to explicitly point out that Jews are not responsible for the suffering of black people.  People who connect that dot -- which has happened frequently in history -- shouldn't be given a pass.  Blaming the Jews for suffering is what leads to the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or millionaire basketball players praising anti-Semites.

I think you're talking past the point a little bit though Roy - specifically I don't think framing the scenario for racist behaviours and thoughts are the same as mitigating it.

Don't you think that just about any form of racism can be framed, though?  Framing racism suggests that some racism is more understandable -- and thus more legitimate -- than others.  And to me, that leads down lots of rabbit holes that do nothing to condemn racism.  Generally I like nuance, but when it comes to discrimination or hatred based upon race, gender, orientation, etc., I think there need to be bright lines.  Otherwise, you end up with a society where certain race-based theories of supremacy are passively tolerated.

[Roy H.]

Well, at least the NBA doesn’t care.

I wonder, if Gordon Hayward linked to a story advocating hatred toward Muslims, would the league do nothing?

I was looking back at this thread and noticed a second reference to Gordon Hayward. Why have you mentioned a white player (that hasn’t been on the team for years) twice in reference to Kyrie/Jaylen?

To me, this seems like Tucker Carlson’s “double standard” rhetoric. “What if a white guy did this?!?”

Why did Gordon make two appearances, and what does he have to do with Jaylen?

There is a double standard.

And this is why you keep trying to connect Jaylen (a player that some of us like) with Kyrie (a player that none of us like)?

Jaylen hasn’t been punished/cancelled and needs to be?

I wasn't going to add this, but the "What if a white guy did this?" needs to be addressed.

Generally speaking, the claims of jewish conspiracy are absurd. It should be noted however that almost all of the weird accusations specific to jews that don't make sense in any other context have actually been done by the larger white society and endured by black people. There was a racially driven intergenerational plot to oppress black people. It all really did happen to them.

Processing that is different, and no matter how woke you are, an overtly race based history that painful brings you very close up to turning it back as racism and anger. Sprinkle in a little Christian faith teaching you a desire to be one of God's chosen people (something many people get caught up in), and you are 95% of the way there. It only takes a nudge to start looking at any particular negative myths towards subgroups of white people, and applying them to the very real pain your families have endured.

That doesn't change the fact that all of this is awful and must be spoken out against. But it does mean that we need to be a bit less sanctimonious about it when it happens. For white people this is all fragility and self indulgence. For black people it's blame for something very real that gets deflected in the wrong direction.

No, I think we can be sanctimonious.  Blacks aren't the only race that have suffered terribly, and certain black supremacists specifically targeting the Jews -- a race that Hitler tried to exterminate, and that has been subject to religion-based war and discrimination for millennia -- should be harshly criticized, without excuse.

I understand the need for grace and understanding, but when you start mitigating one group's racism, then you need to need to apply that standard equally.  Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance.  Blacks got screwed.  So did the Chinese, the Japanese, Native Americans, the Irish, immigrants in general and particularly Hispanics, the Jews, the homosexuals, etc., etc.

Also, I don't think this was your intent at all, but your first paragraph starts with saying most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are nonsense, but then shifts to saying that blacks are truly aggrieved.  It's important to explicitly point out that Jews are not responsible for the suffering of black people.  People who connect that dot -- which has happened frequently in history -- shouldn't be given a pass.  Blaming the Jews for suffering is what leads to the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or millionaire basketball players praising anti-Semites.

The idea that all racial grievance must be dealt with equally is impossible, and hugely self indulgent if you are a white guy.

"Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance. ".

Where is the grace in that? Can't we be a bit smarter, and maybe understand that there is a difference between how Nick Fuentes got there and how Kyrie did? That does not require excusing or promoting Kyrie's point of view at all. It just means a different approach to opposing it. If you actually believe in the need for grace and understanding, that's where you do the work.

So, in practice:  many Jews are "white", or are considered to be.  Do we offer them grace if they're racist?  I mean, they went through a literal genocide, along with plenty of other grievances.  Do we offer white homosexuals grace if they're bigoted?  Society has suppressed and/or actively discriminated against homosexuals for hundreds of years.  On a micro-level, in middle school I knew a deaf kid who was a racist and all-around terrible person.  Do we approach his racism in a different way?  What about the millions of whites who have grown up in generational poverty?  What about the 1930s and 1940s Germans who were going through a terrible economic depression?  It's only natural that they'd want a scapegoat, right?  Hell, Nick Fuentes...  I know nothing about the guy or his origins, other than that he's a racist and Holocaust denier.  But, that surname...  It's obviously Hispanic.  What grievances must he have in his lineage?  Can we understand his racism and hatred in some manner? 

No, no, no, no.  We shouldn't make excuses for racism, or approach it in any way that doesn't include "this is categorically wrong".

[Kernewek]

Two things can be true at the same time:

• All forms of racism can be demonstrably bad and worthy of equal denouncement
• Different grievances can be more or less tangibly based in reality

So, in this case, we can denounce the end result without discounting the actual (and often very real) problems that get people to that end result. That's not difficult, but it is more effort.

[Roy H.]

Two things can be true at the same time:

• All forms of racism can be demonstrably bad and worthy of equal denouncement
• Different grievances can be more or less tangibly based in reality

So, in this case, we can denounce the end result without discounting the actual (and often very real) problems that get people to that end result. That's not difficult, but it is more effort.

So, in practice, how does that work?

Let's say that I have a strong hatred toward the English because for 800 years they oppressed my Irish ancestors.  I actively hate and discriminate against any English person I meet.

Acknowledging that hating somebody based upon country of origin isn't precisely the same as racism, how should something like this be treated?  How is it different than "I totally get where you're coming from, but that's some seriously distorted thinking"?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I still haven’t seen any tangible proof that he’s a bigot. Only proof that he hangs out with bigots.

Speaking of crusades, Roy is on one to promote Tucker Carlson type views.

[Kernewek]

Two things can be true at the same time:

• All forms of racism can be demonstrably bad and worthy of equal denouncement
• Different grievances can be more or less tangibly based in reality

So, in this case, we can denounce the end result without discounting the actual (and often very real) problems that get people to that end result. That's not difficult, but it is more effort.

So, in practice, how does that work?

Let's say that I have a strong hatred toward the English because for 800 years they oppressed my Irish ancestors.  I actively hate and discriminate against any English person I meet.

Acknowledging that hating somebody based upon country of origin isn't precisely the same as racism, how should something like this be treated?  How is it different than "I totally get where you're coming from, but that's some seriously distorted thinking"?

Sure. In this example I think the conversation goes something like this, presuming they're American.

First point - unless you've got a passport, you're not actually Irish.

This is likely to cause some argument, right? So let's say we give our American Anglophobe a pass on that point, based on the fact that there's more members of the Irish Diaspora than real Irish people on either half of the island... Our complainer would probably be hard pressed to identify any tangible examples of oppression that have been placed on them, their immediate family, and/or their community by the English, so hating them is fairly divorced from reality.

They're essentially just carrying on the hate from their forebears - which is a categorically bad thing.

So, second point - To borrow a phrase from some born-in-Ireland Irish, I think I'd chalk this up to our A.A. being a plastic Paddy and advise them to worry about things that actively & tangibly impact them and their community.

Irrational hatred of the English would fall under 'unreasonable' grievance, in my view  - even though the way the English treated the Irish (and pretty much everyone else) was - and in some ways remains - abominable.

[td450]

Well, at least the NBA doesn’t care.

I wonder, if Gordon Hayward linked to a story advocating hatred toward Muslims, would the league do nothing?

I was looking back at this thread and noticed a second reference to Gordon Hayward. Why have you mentioned a white player (that hasn’t been on the team for years) twice in reference to Kyrie/Jaylen?

To me, this seems like Tucker Carlson’s “double standard” rhetoric. “What if a white guy did this?!?”

Why did Gordon make two appearances, and what does he have to do with Jaylen?

There is a double standard.

And this is why you keep trying to connect Jaylen (a player that some of us like) with Kyrie (a player that none of us like)?

Jaylen hasn’t been punished/cancelled and needs to be?

I wasn't going to add this, but the "What if a white guy did this?" needs to be addressed.

Generally speaking, the claims of jewish conspiracy are absurd. It should be noted however that almost all of the weird accusations specific to jews that don't make sense in any other context have actually been done by the larger white society and endured by black people. There was a racially driven intergenerational plot to oppress black people. It all really did happen to them.

Processing that is different, and no matter how woke you are, an overtly race based history that painful brings you very close up to turning it back as racism and anger. Sprinkle in a little Christian faith teaching you a desire to be one of God's chosen people (something many people get caught up in), and you are 95% of the way there. It only takes a nudge to start looking at any particular negative myths towards subgroups of white people, and applying them to the very real pain your families have endured.

That doesn't change the fact that all of this is awful and must be spoken out against. But it does mean that we need to be a bit less sanctimonious about it when it happens. For white people this is all fragility and self indulgence. For black people it's blame for something very real that gets deflected in the wrong direction.

No, I think we can be sanctimonious.  Blacks aren't the only race that have suffered terribly, and certain black supremacists specifically targeting the Jews -- a race that Hitler tried to exterminate, and that has been subject to religion-based war and discrimination for millennia -- should be harshly criticized, without excuse.

I understand the need for grace and understanding, but when you start mitigating one group's racism, then you need to need to apply that standard equally.  Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance.  Blacks got screwed.  So did the Chinese, the Japanese, Native Americans, the Irish, immigrants in general and particularly Hispanics, the Jews, the homosexuals, etc., etc.

Also, I don't think this was your intent at all, but your first paragraph starts with saying most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are nonsense, but then shifts to saying that blacks are truly aggrieved.  It's important to explicitly point out that Jews are not responsible for the suffering of black people.  People who connect that dot -- which has happened frequently in history -- shouldn't be given a pass.  Blaming the Jews for suffering is what leads to the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or millionaire basketball players praising anti-Semites.

The idea that all racial grievance must be dealt with equally is impossible, and hugely self indulgent if you are a white guy.

"Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance. ".

Where is the grace in that? Can't we be a bit smarter, and maybe understand that there is a difference between how Nick Fuentes got there and how Kyrie did? That does not require excusing or promoting Kyrie's point of view at all. It just means a different approach to opposing it. If you actually believe in the need for grace and understanding, that's where you do the work.

So, in practice:  many Jews are "white", or are considered to be.  Do we offer them grace if they're racist?  I mean, they went through a literal genocide, along with plenty of other grievances.  Do we offer white homosexuals grace if they're bigoted?  Society has suppressed and/or actively discriminated against homosexuals for hundreds of years.  On a micro-level, in middle school I knew a deaf kid who was a racist and all-around terrible person.  Do we approach his racism in a different way?  What about the millions of whites who have grown up in generational poverty?  What about the 1930s and 1940s Germans who were going through a terrible economic depression?  It's only natural that they'd want a scapegoat, right?  Hell, Nick Fuentes...  I know nothing about the guy or his origins, other than that he's a racist and Holocaust denier.  But, that surname...  It's obviously Hispanic.  What grievances must he have in his lineage?  Can we understand his racism and hatred in some manner? 

No, no, no, no.  We shouldn't make excuses for racism, or approach it in any way that doesn't include "this is categorically wrong".

I suppose it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are just worried about making this nice and morally tidy, then sure. If you actually want people to understand, and maybe help move some of those closer to the edge to confront the flaws in their point of view, then unfortunately that takes more work.

So yes, even the dismal Nick Fuentes may require some level of understanding before we go after his rhetoric. Because "this is categorically wrong" hasn't worked very well on him and people who think like him. He will likely never change, but there are some people who feel some of the same things, but have some doubts.

So far as I can tell, the most successful civil rights efforts are those that get people to confront their own behavior by using their own values. You won't have much luck trying to shame them using your values.

[Roy H.]

I still haven’t seen any tangible proof that he’s a bigot. Only proof that he hangs out with bigots.

Speaking of crusades, Roy is on one to promote Tucker Carlson type views.

Are we not allowed to criticize people for hanging out with bigots?  (And also for endorsing hate groups on social media?)

I don’t watch Carlson.  I find him grating.  But, if he’s advocating for others to condemn racism wherever they see it, then I guess good for him?

[Roy H.]

Well, at least the NBA doesn’t care.

I wonder, if Gordon Hayward linked to a story advocating hatred toward Muslims, would the league do nothing?

I was looking back at this thread and noticed a second reference to Gordon Hayward. Why have you mentioned a white player (that hasn’t been on the team for years) twice in reference to Kyrie/Jaylen?

To me, this seems like Tucker Carlson’s “double standard” rhetoric. “What if a white guy did this?!?”

Why did Gordon make two appearances, and what does he have to do with Jaylen?

There is a double standard.

And this is why you keep trying to connect Jaylen (a player that some of us like) with Kyrie (a player that none of us like)?

Jaylen hasn’t been punished/cancelled and needs to be?

I wasn't going to add this, but the "What if a white guy did this?" needs to be addressed.

Generally speaking, the claims of jewish conspiracy are absurd. It should be noted however that almost all of the weird accusations specific to jews that don't make sense in any other context have actually been done by the larger white society and endured by black people. There was a racially driven intergenerational plot to oppress black people. It all really did happen to them.

Processing that is different, and no matter how woke you are, an overtly race based history that painful brings you very close up to turning it back as racism and anger. Sprinkle in a little Christian faith teaching you a desire to be one of God's chosen people (something many people get caught up in), and you are 95% of the way there. It only takes a nudge to start looking at any particular negative myths towards subgroups of white people, and applying them to the very real pain your families have endured.

That doesn't change the fact that all of this is awful and must be spoken out against. But it does mean that we need to be a bit less sanctimonious about it when it happens. For white people this is all fragility and self indulgence. For black people it's blame for something very real that gets deflected in the wrong direction.

No, I think we can be sanctimonious.  Blacks aren't the only race that have suffered terribly, and certain black supremacists specifically targeting the Jews -- a race that Hitler tried to exterminate, and that has been subject to religion-based war and discrimination for millennia -- should be harshly criticized, without excuse.

I understand the need for grace and understanding, but when you start mitigating one group's racism, then you need to need to apply that standard equally.  Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance.  Blacks got screwed.  So did the Chinese, the Japanese, Native Americans, the Irish, immigrants in general and particularly Hispanics, the Jews, the homosexuals, etc., etc.

Also, I don't think this was your intent at all, but your first paragraph starts with saying most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are nonsense, but then shifts to saying that blacks are truly aggrieved.  It's important to explicitly point out that Jews are not responsible for the suffering of black people.  People who connect that dot -- which has happened frequently in history -- shouldn't be given a pass.  Blaming the Jews for suffering is what leads to the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or millionaire basketball players praising anti-Semites.

The idea that all racial grievance must be dealt with equally is impossible, and hugely self indulgent if you are a white guy.

"Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance. ".

Where is the grace in that? Can't we be a bit smarter, and maybe understand that there is a difference between how Nick Fuentes got there and how Kyrie did? That does not require excusing or promoting Kyrie's point of view at all. It just means a different approach to opposing it. If you actually believe in the need for grace and understanding, that's where you do the work.

So, in practice:  many Jews are "white", or are considered to be.  Do we offer them grace if they're racist?  I mean, they went through a literal genocide, along with plenty of other grievances.  Do we offer white homosexuals grace if they're bigoted?  Society has suppressed and/or actively discriminated against homosexuals for hundreds of years.  On a micro-level, in middle school I knew a deaf kid who was a racist and all-around terrible person.  Do we approach his racism in a different way?  What about the millions of whites who have grown up in generational poverty?  What about the 1930s and 1940s Germans who were going through a terrible economic depression?  It's only natural that they'd want a scapegoat, right?  Hell, Nick Fuentes...  I know nothing about the guy or his origins, other than that he's a racist and Holocaust denier.  But, that surname...  It's obviously Hispanic.  What grievances must he have in his lineage?  Can we understand his racism and hatred in some manner? 

No, no, no, no.  We shouldn't make excuses for racism, or approach it in any way that doesn't include "this is categorically wrong".

I suppose it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are just worried about making this nice and morally tidy, then sure. If you actually want people to understand, and maybe help move some of those closer to the edge to confront the flaws in their point of view, then unfortunately that takes more work.

So yes, even the dismal Nick Fuentes may require some level of understanding before we go after his rhetoric. Because "this is categorically wrong" hasn't worked very well on him and people who think like him. He will likely never change, but there are some people who feel some of the same things, but have some doubts.

So far as I can tell, the most successful civil rights efforts are those that get people to confront their own behavior by using their own values. You won't have much luck trying to shame them using your values.

I’m curious, what values other than “racism is wrong in all forms” will get through to racists?  Doesn’t much of racism break down to “my life sucks, I need somebody to blame, so I’m going to find a scapegoat”?  I suppose that vein of racism is different than “I’m rich / I’m very powerful, so I can exploit fear and prejudice against “the other” to consolidate even more wealth / power” racism.  But don’t the basic foundations all boil down to pretty much the same thing?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I still haven’t seen any tangible proof that he’s a bigot. Only proof that he hangs out with bigots.

Speaking of crusades, Roy is on one to promote Tucker Carlson type views.

Are we not allowed to criticize people for hanging out with bigots?  (And also for endorsing hate groups on social media?)

I don’t watch Carlson.  I find him grating.  But, if he’s advocating for others to condemn racism wherever they see it, then I guess good for him?

We definitely should criticize hate where we see it.

They play Tucker at the gym that I go to. He’s constantly finding instances of double standards where a person of color is in the wrong, which lets him lead to other conclusions. Kyle Rittenhouse, affirmative action, etc etc.

The guy is driving the double standard train to a place where white people have been wrongfully blamed for societal ills.

[Roy H.]

I still haven’t seen any tangible proof that he’s a bigot. Only proof that he hangs out with bigots.

Speaking of crusades, Roy is on one to promote Tucker Carlson type views.

Are we not allowed to criticize people for hanging out with bigots?  (And also for endorsing hate groups on social media?)

I don’t watch Carlson.  I find him grating.  But, if he’s advocating for others to condemn racism wherever they see it, then I guess good for him?

We definitely should criticize hate where we see it.

They play Tucker at the gym that I go to. He’s constantly finding instances of double standards where a person of color is in the wrong, which lets him lead to other conclusions. Kyle Rittenhouse, affirmative action, etc etc.

The guy is driving the double standard train to a place where white people have been wrongfully blamed for societal ills.

Find a new gym, or wear headphones?

I find that business decision by the gym to be an interesting one.  I would expect that showing Carlson offends more potential members than it attracts, but that particular market must be different.  Are you still in MA, or did you move to TX?  Military / cop gym?  Gym owned by Focus on the Family?

But I digress.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I still haven’t seen any tangible proof that he’s a bigot. Only proof that he hangs out with bigots.

Speaking of crusades, Roy is on one to promote Tucker Carlson type views.

Are we not allowed to criticize people for hanging out with bigots?  (And also for endorsing hate groups on social media?)

I don’t watch Carlson.  I find him grating.  But, if he’s advocating for others to condemn racism wherever they see it, then I guess good for him?

We definitely should criticize hate where we see it.

They play Tucker at the gym that I go to. He’s constantly finding instances of double standards where a person of color is in the wrong, which lets him lead to other conclusions. Kyle Rittenhouse, affirmative action, etc etc.

The guy is driving the double standard train to a place where white people have been wrongfully blamed for societal ills.

Find a new gym, or wear headphones?

I find that business decision by the gym to be an interesting one.  I would expect that showing Carlson offends more potential members than it attracts, but that particular market must be different.  Are you still in MA, or did you move to TX?  Military / cop gym?  Gym owned by Focus on the Family?

But I digress.

MA. We have a lot more conservatives than many think. Typically the older men using cardio equipment watch it. Most of the young people using free weights don’t watch TV at the gym. CNN is not an option I guess haha.

Both Fox News and CNN suck btw. Propaganda delivery for the masses.

[td450]

Well, at least the NBA doesn’t care.

I wonder, if Gordon Hayward linked to a story advocating hatred toward Muslims, would the league do nothing?

I was looking back at this thread and noticed a second reference to Gordon Hayward. Why have you mentioned a white player (that hasn’t been on the team for years) twice in reference to Kyrie/Jaylen?

To me, this seems like Tucker Carlson’s “double standard” rhetoric. “What if a white guy did this?!?”

Why did Gordon make two appearances, and what does he have to do with Jaylen?

There is a double standard.

And this is why you keep trying to connect Jaylen (a player that some of us like) with Kyrie (a player that none of us like)?

Jaylen hasn’t been punished/cancelled and needs to be?

I wasn't going to add this, but the "What if a white guy did this?" needs to be addressed.

Generally speaking, the claims of jewish conspiracy are absurd. It should be noted however that almost all of the weird accusations specific to jews that don't make sense in any other context have actually been done by the larger white society and endured by black people. There was a racially driven intergenerational plot to oppress black people. It all really did happen to them.

Processing that is different, and no matter how woke you are, an overtly race based history that painful brings you very close up to turning it back as racism and anger. Sprinkle in a little Christian faith teaching you a desire to be one of God's chosen people (something many people get caught up in), and you are 95% of the way there. It only takes a nudge to start looking at any particular negative myths towards subgroups of white people, and applying them to the very real pain your families have endured.

That doesn't change the fact that all of this is awful and must be spoken out against. But it does mean that we need to be a bit less sanctimonious about it when it happens. For white people this is all fragility and self indulgence. For black people it's blame for something very real that gets deflected in the wrong direction.

No, I think we can be sanctimonious.  Blacks aren't the only race that have suffered terribly, and certain black supremacists specifically targeting the Jews -- a race that Hitler tried to exterminate, and that has been subject to religion-based war and discrimination for millennia -- should be harshly criticized, without excuse.

I understand the need for grace and understanding, but when you start mitigating one group's racism, then you need to need to apply that standard equally.  Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance.  Blacks got screwed.  So did the Chinese, the Japanese, Native Americans, the Irish, immigrants in general and particularly Hispanics, the Jews, the homosexuals, etc., etc.

Also, I don't think this was your intent at all, but your first paragraph starts with saying most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are nonsense, but then shifts to saying that blacks are truly aggrieved.  It's important to explicitly point out that Jews are not responsible for the suffering of black people.  People who connect that dot -- which has happened frequently in history -- shouldn't be given a pass.  Blaming the Jews for suffering is what leads to the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or millionaire basketball players praising anti-Semites.

The idea that all racial grievance must be dealt with equally is impossible, and hugely self indulgent if you are a white guy.

"Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance. ".

Where is the grace in that? Can't we be a bit smarter, and maybe understand that there is a difference between how Nick Fuentes got there and how Kyrie did? That does not require excusing or promoting Kyrie's point of view at all. It just means a different approach to opposing it. If you actually believe in the need for grace and understanding, that's where you do the work.

So, in practice:  many Jews are "white", or are considered to be.  Do we offer them grace if they're racist?  I mean, they went through a literal genocide, along with plenty of other grievances.  Do we offer white homosexuals grace if they're bigoted?  Society has suppressed and/or actively discriminated against homosexuals for hundreds of years.  On a micro-level, in middle school I knew a deaf kid who was a racist and all-around terrible person.  Do we approach his racism in a different way?  What about the millions of whites who have grown up in generational poverty?  What about the 1930s and 1940s Germans who were going through a terrible economic depression?  It's only natural that they'd want a scapegoat, right?  Hell, Nick Fuentes...  I know nothing about the guy or his origins, other than that he's a racist and Holocaust denier.  But, that surname...  It's obviously Hispanic.  What grievances must he have in his lineage?  Can we understand his racism and hatred in some manner? 

No, no, no, no.  We shouldn't make excuses for racism, or approach it in any way that doesn't include "this is categorically wrong".

I suppose it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are just worried about making this nice and morally tidy, then sure. If you actually want people to understand, and maybe help move some of those closer to the edge to confront the flaws in their point of view, then unfortunately that takes more work.

So yes, even the dismal Nick Fuentes may require some level of understanding before we go after his rhetoric. Because "this is categorically wrong" hasn't worked very well on him and people who think like him. He will likely never change, but there are some people who feel some of the same things, but have some doubts.

So far as I can tell, the most successful civil rights efforts are those that get people to confront their own behavior by using their own values. You won't have much luck trying to shame them using your values.

I’m curious, what values other than “racism is wrong in all forms” will get through to racists?  Doesn’t much of racism break down to “my life sucks, I need somebody to blame, so I’m going to find a scapegoat”?  I suppose that vein of racism is different than “I’m rich / I’m very powerful, so I can exploit fear and prejudice against “the other” to consolidate even more wealth / power” racism.  But don’t the basic foundations all boil down to pretty much the same thing?

As I said, you need to understand the values of the person you are talking to. Martin Luther King Jr. was the most successful civil rights leader in modern memory in America, and his core success was when he appealed to the values of the people he was trying to convince.

He knew that it white society believed that it was a core American value that anyone could succeed or fail here based on the content of their character, and that denying that was impossible for them to square. That same appeal may not have worked in parts of Europe.

[Kernewek]

Well, at least the NBA doesn’t care.

I wonder, if Gordon Hayward linked to a story advocating hatred toward Muslims, would the league do nothing?

I was looking back at this thread and noticed a second reference to Gordon Hayward. Why have you mentioned a white player (that hasn’t been on the team for years) twice in reference to Kyrie/Jaylen?

To me, this seems like Tucker Carlson’s “double standard” rhetoric. “What if a white guy did this?!?”

Why did Gordon make two appearances, and what does he have to do with Jaylen?

There is a double standard.

And this is why you keep trying to connect Jaylen (a player that some of us like) with Kyrie (a player that none of us like)?

Jaylen hasn’t been punished/cancelled and needs to be?

I wasn't going to add this, but the "What if a white guy did this?" needs to be addressed.

Generally speaking, the claims of jewish conspiracy are absurd. It should be noted however that almost all of the weird accusations specific to jews that don't make sense in any other context have actually been done by the larger white society and endured by black people. There was a racially driven intergenerational plot to oppress black people. It all really did happen to them.

Processing that is different, and no matter how woke you are, an overtly race based history that painful brings you very close up to turning it back as racism and anger. Sprinkle in a little Christian faith teaching you a desire to be one of God's chosen people (something many people get caught up in), and you are 95% of the way there. It only takes a nudge to start looking at any particular negative myths towards subgroups of white people, and applying them to the very real pain your families have endured.

That doesn't change the fact that all of this is awful and must be spoken out against. But it does mean that we need to be a bit less sanctimonious about it when it happens. For white people this is all fragility and self indulgence. For black people it's blame for something very real that gets deflected in the wrong direction.

No, I think we can be sanctimonious.  Blacks aren't the only race that have suffered terribly, and certain black supremacists specifically targeting the Jews -- a race that Hitler tried to exterminate, and that has been subject to religion-based war and discrimination for millennia -- should be harshly criticized, without excuse.

I understand the need for grace and understanding, but when you start mitigating one group's racism, then you need to need to apply that standard equally.  Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance.  Blacks got screwed.  So did the Chinese, the Japanese, Native Americans, the Irish, immigrants in general and particularly Hispanics, the Jews, the homosexuals, etc., etc.

Also, I don't think this was your intent at all, but your first paragraph starts with saying most anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are nonsense, but then shifts to saying that blacks are truly aggrieved.  It's important to explicitly point out that Jews are not responsible for the suffering of black people.  People who connect that dot -- which has happened frequently in history -- shouldn't be given a pass.  Blaming the Jews for suffering is what leads to the Crusades, or the Holocaust, or millionaire basketball players praising anti-Semites.

The idea that all racial grievance must be dealt with equally is impossible, and hugely self indulgent if you are a white guy.

"Otherwise, we're left with a"hierarchy of woke-ism", where the actions of certain groups are excused, or even promoted, based upon level of grievance. ".

Where is the grace in that? Can't we be a bit smarter, and maybe understand that there is a difference between how Nick Fuentes got there and how Kyrie did? That does not require excusing or promoting Kyrie's point of view at all. It just means a different approach to opposing it. If you actually believe in the need for grace and understanding, that's where you do the work.

So, in practice:  many Jews are "white", or are considered to be.  Do we offer them grace if they're racist?  I mean, they went through a literal genocide, along with plenty of other grievances.  Do we offer white homosexuals grace if they're bigoted?  Society has suppressed and/or actively discriminated against homosexuals for hundreds of years.  On a micro-level, in middle school I knew a deaf kid who was a racist and all-around terrible person.  Do we approach his racism in a different way?  What about the millions of whites who have grown up in generational poverty?  What about the 1930s and 1940s Germans who were going through a terrible economic depression?  It's only natural that they'd want a scapegoat, right?  Hell, Nick Fuentes...  I know nothing about the guy or his origins, other than that he's a racist and Holocaust denier.  But, that surname...  It's obviously Hispanic.  What grievances must he have in his lineage?  Can we understand his racism and hatred in some manner? 

No, no, no, no.  We shouldn't make excuses for racism, or approach it in any way that doesn't include "this is categorically wrong".

I suppose it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are just worried about making this nice and morally tidy, then sure. If you actually want people to understand, and maybe help move some of those closer to the edge to confront the flaws in their point of view, then unfortunately that takes more work.

So yes, even the dismal Nick Fuentes may require some level of understanding before we go after his rhetoric. Because "this is categorically wrong" hasn't worked very well on him and people who think like him. He will likely never change, but there are some people who feel some of the same things, but have some doubts.

So far as I can tell, the most successful civil rights efforts are those that get people to confront their own behavior by using their own values. You won't have much luck trying to shame them using your values.

I’m curious, what values other than “racism is wrong in all forms” will get through to racists?  Doesn’t much of racism break down to “my life sucks, I need somebody to blame, so I’m going to find a scapegoat”?  I suppose that vein of racism is different than “I’m rich / I’m very powerful, so I can exploit fear and prejudice against “the other” to consolidate even more wealth / power” racism.  But don’t the basic foundations all boil down to pretty much the same thing?

As I said, you need to understand the values of the person you are talking to. Martin Luther King Jr. was the most successful civil rights leader in modern memory in America, and his core success was when he appealed to the values of the people he was trying to convince.

He knew that it white society believed that it was a core American value that anyone could succeed or fail here based on the content of their character, and that denying that was impossible for them to square. That same appeal may not have worked in parts of Europe.

He also got assassinated when he took some of his civil rights positions to their logical conclusions. I know you're probably aware of this, but there's an awful lot of MLK's positions that don't get taught to folks today because they're not the frictionless bits.