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Author Topic: Brown Sticks With West  (Read 15956 times)

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Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2022, 05:15:44 PM »

Online Roy H.

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I think these things should all be universally true:

1.  Freely flowing thoughts and ideas are a good thing.  Free speech should be embraced and promoted, not just from infringement by the government, but in all spheres.  However, it's not without limits.

2.  Hate speech and bigotry are a bad thing, that should be criticized and "cancelled".  However, we can have grace and forgiveness, as well, when appropriate. 

3.  Not all speech that somebody deems "offensive" should be shut down.  People need to weigh context, reasonability, and intent. 



Regarding #3: How is this relevant to Kanye’s tweet? I keep reading/hearing that cancel culture is targeting things that aren’t “a big deal”, but without examples. What type of actions are incorrectly being called out?

I think each perceived transgression needs to be addressed on an individual basis. Lumping any type of criticism into cancel culture is lazy.

“Death con 3 to Jewish people” seems cut and dry.

I think most people can identify what category Kanye’s words fall under.


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Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2022, 05:23:21 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I think these things should all be universally true:

1.  Freely flowing thoughts and ideas are a good thing.  Free speech should be embraced and promoted, not just from infringement by the government, but in all spheres.  However, it's not without limits.

2.  Hate speech and bigotry are a bad thing, that should be criticized and "cancelled".  However, we can have grace and forgiveness, as well, when appropriate. 

3.  Not all speech that somebody deems "offensive" should be shut down.  People need to weigh context, reasonability, and intent. 



Regarding #3: How is this relevant to Kanye’s tweet? I keep reading/hearing that cancel culture is targeting things that aren’t “a big deal”, but without examples. What type of actions are incorrectly being called out?

I think each perceived transgression needs to be addressed on an individual basis. Lumping any type of criticism into cancel culture is lazy.

“Death con 3 to Jewish people” seems cut and dry.

I think most people can identify what category Kanye’s words fall under.

The contentious topic appears to be #3. What types of things offend some but not others? I’m curious how many times people have gotten defensive for getting called out for being kind of mean.

My buddies and I call each other fat when we hang out. We like each other and know that we’re not deeply offending each other. Many of us (and our wives) think it’s funny. We can’t take that same approach to the rest of the world, as we would be considered offensive and rude. People would say we’re fat shaming.

Why should I try to fight this, instead of saying “you got me, I shouldn’t have said that stuff in an evolved, polite society”?

Cancel culture is a somewhat newish term, but people have been disapproving behavior for a while. People used to make racist jokes to their friends and there were less issues. What is new is that people feel emboldened to state their racist views as legitimate political opinions.

Many of the big cancellations that I’ve seen (OJ, Cosby, Bannon, and yes, even Louis CK) have been earned.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 05:58:12 PM by MarcusSmartFanClub »

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #92 on: October 27, 2022, 06:47:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Kanye has always been batty. He wasn't being canceled before his antisemitic comments but was MAGA before. Don't believe JB is MAGA but still chose to do business w him, ditto for Adidas. I'd argue the opposite is true, people are sticking up for his freedom of speech bc he is MAGA.

So within the past year and a half America has finally turned the corner where anti-semitism is taken seriously?

Will Louis Farrakhan finally be banned from Twitter, I wonder?

Yes, people aren’t getting away with hate speech as much as before. Should have been this way for a long time.

I know nothing about Louis Farrakhan. I’ve only seen conservatives bring up his name. I haven’t seen him on tv or Twitter. If he is publicizing death to Jews, he should be kicked to the curb.

Almost all of the black celebrities advocating anti-semitism are referencing Farrakhan, knowingly or not. 

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/nation-of-islam-farrakhan-in-his-own-words

It's crazy to me that you've only seen Farrakhan referenced by conservatives.  That's not a failing of you, it's of our media and our culture, not condemning one of the most influential bigots in America.

I hope you're right, that this is a sign of anti-semitism finally becoming an issue that mainstream culture takes seriously.  For many, many years, it's been the most "acceptable" form of bigotry (minus perhaps the anti-white and anti-Christian bigotry cited above.)


Louis Farrakhan is a despicable human being and should be denounced, there is no doubt about that.

Regarding the comment about Farrakhan only being referenced by conservatives, my guess is that is because:

1) It does not seem, at least to me, that we have heard much from him recently. The link you shared above was originally from 2013 and the most recent update is a quote from 2018.

2) It does not seem, again, at least to me, that many people are referencing or openly supporting Farrakhan and on the occassion that someone does others denounce him. Recently Marion Barry's wife praised Farrakhan and afterwards the White House denounced any praise of him with an aide saying ""As President Biden has always done and as Karine reiterated this morning, ‘we need to call out antisemitism everywhere it rears its ugly head. The President has unequivocally condemned Louis Farrakhan and the hate he represents for decades and co-sponsored bipartisan legislation doing so. He also denounces any praise of Louis Farrakhan or his repugnant, antisemitic values, including in this case"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/white-house-denounces-dc-officials-praise-of-anti-semite-louis-farrakhan/ar-AA13mkIR


Again, Farrakhan is despicable and I am fine with him being banned from Twitter for things he has said, I just do not think people talk much about him because he is seen and heard of less and is not as influential than he has been in the past.

Doesn't much of the anti-semitism we see from celebrities stem from Farrakhan's teachings?  Black separatism, black supremacy, blacks are the real children of Israel, etc.?

Here are some brief articles making the same connection:

https://andscape.com/features/desean-jacksons-anti-semitic-posts-continue-long-history-of-tension-over-farrakhan/

https://apnews.com/article/us-news-ap-top-news-nick-cannon-entertainment-lifestyle-ecfb4235f1bda967e617cf687853a5ba

https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/black-public-personalities-are-engaged-in-antisemitic-rhetoric-635715
Not sure I am buying the Farrakhan connections these articles are making. Almost all racism, of any kind, is learned at a very young age from parents and family members. If those celebs listened to and espoused Farrakhan teachings on race, it's almost certainly because they were predisposed to those teachings and opinions because of racism learned as children.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #93 on: October 27, 2022, 06:56:33 PM »

Offline td450

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Kanye has always been batty. He wasn't being canceled before his antisemitic comments but was MAGA before. Don't believe JB is MAGA but still chose to do business w him, ditto for Adidas. I'd argue the opposite is true, people are sticking up for his freedom of speech bc he is MAGA.

So within the past year and a half America has finally turned the corner where anti-semitism is taken seriously?

Will Louis Farrakhan finally be banned from Twitter, I wonder?

Yes, people aren’t getting away with hate speech as much as before. Should have been this way for a long time.

I know nothing about Louis Farrakhan. I’ve only seen conservatives bring up his name. I haven’t seen him on tv or Twitter. If he is publicizing death to Jews, he should be kicked to the curb.

Almost all of the black celebrities advocating anti-semitism are referencing Farrakhan, knowingly or not. 

https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/nation-of-islam-farrakhan-in-his-own-words

It's crazy to me that you've only seen Farrakhan referenced by conservatives.  That's not a failing of you, it's of our media and our culture, not condemning one of the most influential bigots in America.

I hope you're right, that this is a sign of anti-semitism finally becoming an issue that mainstream culture takes seriously.  For many, many years, it's been the most "acceptable" form of bigotry (minus perhaps the anti-white and anti-Christian bigotry cited above.)


Louis Farrakhan is a despicable human being and should be denounced, there is no doubt about that.

Regarding the comment about Farrakhan only being referenced by conservatives, my guess is that is because:

1) It does not seem, at least to me, that we have heard much from him recently. The link you shared above was originally from 2013 and the most recent update is a quote from 2018.

2) It does not seem, again, at least to me, that many people are referencing or openly supporting Farrakhan and on the occassion that someone does others denounce him. Recently Marion Barry's wife praised Farrakhan and afterwards the White House denounced any praise of him with an aide saying ""As President Biden has always done and as Karine reiterated this morning, ‘we need to call out antisemitism everywhere it rears its ugly head. The President has unequivocally condemned Louis Farrakhan and the hate he represents for decades and co-sponsored bipartisan legislation doing so. He also denounces any praise of Louis Farrakhan or his repugnant, antisemitic values, including in this case"

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/white-house-denounces-dc-officials-praise-of-anti-semite-louis-farrakhan/ar-AA13mkIR


Again, Farrakhan is despicable and I am fine with him being banned from Twitter for things he has said, I just do not think people talk much about him because he is seen and heard of less and is not as influential than he has been in the past.

Doesn't much of the anti-semitism we see from celebrities stem from Farrakhan's teachings?  Black separatism, black supremacy, blacks are the real children of Israel, etc.?

Here are some brief articles making the same connection:

https://andscape.com/features/desean-jacksons-anti-semitic-posts-continue-long-history-of-tension-over-farrakhan/

https://apnews.com/article/us-news-ap-top-news-nick-cannon-entertainment-lifestyle-ecfb4235f1bda967e617cf687853a5ba

https://www.jpost.com/american-politics/black-public-personalities-are-engaged-in-antisemitic-rhetoric-635715
Not sure I am buying the Farrakhan connections these articles are making. Almost all racism, of any kind, is learned at a very young age from parents and family members. If those celebs listened to and espoused Farrakhan teachings on race, it's almost certainly because they were predisposed to those teachings and opinions because of racism learned as children.

You can have an underlying set of resentments and develop a predisposition to judge a certain way that you grow up with, then as an adult hear a narrative that validates how you feel.


Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #94 on: October 27, 2022, 07:23:29 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Pretty succinct summation of the whole thread, really.
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #95 on: October 27, 2022, 09:54:03 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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I think these things should all be universally true:

1.  Freely flowing thoughts and ideas are a good thing.  Free speech should be embraced and promoted, not just from infringement by the government, but in all spheres.  However, it's not without limits.

2.  Hate speech and bigotry are a bad thing, that should be criticized and "cancelled".  However, we can have grace and forgiveness, as well, when appropriate. 

3.  Not all speech that somebody deems "offensive" should be shut down.  People need to weigh context, reasonability, and intent. 

This. When I call for a return to common sense sanity, this is precisely what I am calling for.

People are increasingly sick of the dark triad types who engage in item three to an extreme extent so they can boost their “woke credentials.” These sick individuals love seeing people they merely disagree with being cancelled/shunned, even though they know some of these people are good people who do not deserve to be lumped in with item two (they see the world differently, but are not hateful bigots by any means). This type of cancel culture behavior, jumping on people for retweeting an off-color joke about women for example, often resembles the brimstone biblical types of the 20th century with God/Jesus substituted with “social justice” and “equity.” The backlash against these types—among right-wingers, middle/center folk, and classical liberals who worship item one above all else—the backlash is obviously bubbling to the surface. Eventually we may need to treat the people who are seemingly always offended by something, always trying to push this cancellation or that ban, the same as the people who engage in item two above because ultimately what most of those people are really selling/pushing is hate/bigotry of a more implicit/insidious nature (or people are being pushed in that direction by those who want to see increasing levels of hate/bigotry/disunion). Many are not so different from the people who fall under item two, frankly.

I’ve read your last couple of posts as “Kanye was wrong, but cancel culture is to blame”.

This is an absolutely wild take.

Absolutely not the case. My point is that cancel culture has been so repulsive/over-the-top that we are now in an environment where one of the biggest musicians on the planet is spewing antisemitism and the nation is not 100% united in lambasting the sick dude with his evil comments. Complete opposite of how we would have reacted in 2012, 2002, 1992, etc., before cancel culture, when we were mostly united on categories 1-3 in Roy’s bullets above, and did not allow true hate/bigotry to be outside the shadows. To use my prior analogy of a law that treats bank robberies the exact same as murder with a life in prison sentence, cancel culture has snowballed and created an environment where the bank robbers are now running around saying, “what’s the difference if we take out everyone in the bank? If we’re caught, it’s life in prison no matter what, so time to do what we gotta do to walk out of here.” When we do not delineate between offensive/contrary viewpoints and dangerous/hateful/bigoted ideas, that is what we get.

It’s important to throw it in the face of the people who are “offended” at minor stuff like an off-color joke about women being different from men—the same types who find any disagreement “offensive” and something they try to censor because they’re sick, weak people themselves—the intolerance of these individuals, their intolerance of different viewpoints (and automatically trying to associate all disagreements with true hate/bigotry), and most people letting these offended people push their weight around in cancelling/trying to silence people for relatively minor transgressions compared to antisemitism, has contributed greatly to the current snowballing of problems.

Regarding Roy’s three bullet points, many people think trying to stifle bullet point one is perhaps the worst offense anybody can try to do regardless of where hate/bigotry is coming from—we can hold that opinion and still think the behaviors that fall into category two are repulsive and to be opposed/boycotted. But frankly, most are really sick of the people who fall into category 3, especially seeing something like this Kanye stuff blowup in the wake of everything. This would not be happening if not for the hordes who fall into category three (that is, people trying to shut down anything anybody says that anybody considers “offensive” - the backlash is the worst of the worst coming out to fight and further snowballing problems.

Far too many people need to learn all individuals are different/unique, and we will not always agree with everything everybody says, but simply being different does not mean someone is bigoted/hateful. We do not have a fundamental right to not be offended. That’s not how life works in a free country because a free country understands that anything and everything has the potential to offend. Yes, if someone spews hate/bigotry, shut ‘em down/cancel them. But being different from someone does not mean they’re hateful of someone or anybody for that matter. Being different, not towing a party line, does not mean they must be censored. Being hateful/bigoted means they must be censored. Try imposing censorship on people who are not hateful/bigoted and it definitely will not end well for anybody, especially those of us in the middle of these extreme leftists and extreme right-wingers. Cannot speak for everybody in the center, but most of us simply desire peace, prosperity and dignity for fellow members of our species. An increasing number of people in the middle are just fed up with both extremes, and want both sides to be powerless so we can once more have common sense sanity. It’s very sad that things have escalated so badly and out of hand that one of the biggest musicians on the planet is spewing antisemitism. If only we had reserved the act of ostracizing only for those who spew hate/bigotry like antisemitism, it seems likely we would not be such a mess today.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 10:19:59 PM by GreenlyGreeny »

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #96 on: October 27, 2022, 10:18:32 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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Still no evidence of #3. I think it’s because most of the mean things people are saying can’t be justified. Instead, they attack “cancel culture”. Who is getting unjustly cancelled? I think it’s important to discuss situations rather than lazily throwing everything into “cancel culture”.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #97 on: October 27, 2022, 10:25:09 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Still no evidence of #3. I think it’s because most of the mean things people are saying can’t be justified. Instead, they attack “cancel culture”. Who is getting unjustly cancelled? I think it’s important to discuss situations rather than lazily throwing everything into “cancel culture”.

Look at the one at the Washington Post who tried to get a coworker fired because he retweeted an off-color joke about women. By all accounts, that dude is not a bad guy who’s worthy of being treated the same as someone who, say, spews antisemitism like Kanye. What an absurd environment where the tiniest misstep results in the same outcome as being truly hateful/bigoted. Do that enough and there will be plenty of hate/bigotry out there in its wake. That’s what is happening.

For a seemingly endless supply of examples of category 3:

https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&search_query=Bill+maher+cancel+culture
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 10:33:01 PM by GreenlyGreeny »

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2022, 10:35:01 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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 I never read about that. I guess I’m not as tuned in to the Washington Post. I’m curious if there’s someone that a) I know and b) has been unfairly cancelled.

I’ve said a lot of dumb stuff in my life and appreciate those that have given me a second chance. If I upset someone, I’ll say sorry and move on. If I don’t like them/know them, I prob won’t talk to them again. What I’m not doing is doubling down on said offense in a defensive manner.

Edit: I just read his tweet:  “Every girl is bi. You just have to figure out if it’s polar or sexual.” I think that is funny and he doesn’t deserve to be cancelled. My wife thought it was insulting but not worthy of a cancel.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 10:40:22 PM by MarcusSmartFanClub »

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #99 on: October 27, 2022, 10:43:58 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Still no evidence of #3. I think it’s because most of the mean things people are saying can’t be justified. Instead, they attack “cancel culture”. Who is getting unjustly cancelled? I think it’s important to discuss situations rather than lazily throwing everything into “cancel culture”.
What about Colin Kaepernick? Is that a good example?

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #100 on: October 27, 2022, 10:45:31 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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I never read about that. I guess I’m not as tuned in to the Washington Post. I’m curious if there’s someone that a) I know and b) has been unfairly cancelled.

I’ve said a lot of dumb stuff in my life and appreciate those that have given me a second chance. If I upset someone, I’ll say sorry and move on. If I don’t like them/know them, I prob won’t talk to them again. What I’m not doing is doubling down on said offense in a defensive manner.

Yes, this is common sense sanity. Unfortunately, there is an increasingly growing horde that will treat a minor misstep the same as spewing antisemitism. Not a healthy environment. It started with celebrities and now it’s growing to going after ordinary people. Some of them target people simply because they disagree or speak up against extreme leftist ideas, even if the person is obviously not hateful/bigoted. It’s like something out of the Soviet Union and it needs to stop. We need to realize to err is to be human, and when we are sorry, we ought to be forgiven in most cases. Ostracizing should be reserved for real hate/bigotry like Kanye has displayed.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #101 on: October 27, 2022, 10:49:21 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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Still no evidence of #3. I think it’s because most of the mean things people are saying can’t be justified. Instead, they attack “cancel culture”. Who is getting unjustly cancelled? I think it’s important to discuss situations rather than lazily throwing everything into “cancel culture”.
What about Colin Kaepernick? Is that a good example?

This is another good example.

The common denominator among all these cancellers: Extreme politics.

Moderation is the key to success. This country needs to reject extremism and needs to reject it now.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #102 on: October 27, 2022, 10:51:55 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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I never read about that. I guess I’m not as tuned in to the Washington Post. I’m curious if there’s someone that a) I know and b) has been unfairly cancelled.

I’ve said a lot of dumb stuff in my life and appreciate those that have given me a second chance. If I upset someone, I’ll say sorry and move on. If I don’t like them/know them, I prob won’t talk to them again. What I’m not doing is doubling down on said offense in a defensive manner.

Yes, this is common sense sanity. Unfortunately, there is an increasingly growing horde that will treat a minor misstep the same as spewing antisemitism. Not a healthy environment. It started with celebrities and now it’s growing to going after ordinary people. Some of them target people simply because they disagree or speak up against extreme leftist ideas, even if the person is obviously not hateful/bigoted. It’s like something out of the Soviet Union and it needs to stop. We need to realize to err is to be human, and when we are sorry, we ought to be forgiven in most cases. Ostracizing should be reserved for real hate/bigotry like Kanye has displayed.

Eh, I’m not sure I agree. I can’t speak for others, but I definitely make a distinction. I think most people do. I think you might be listening to a loud minority that can’t tell the difference.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2022, 11:09:04 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Still no evidence of #3. I think it’s because most of the mean things people are saying can’t be justified. Instead, they attack “cancel culture”. Who is getting unjustly cancelled? I think it’s important to discuss situations rather than lazily throwing everything into “cancel culture”.
What about Colin Kaepernick? Is that a good example?

This is another good example.

The common denominator among all these cancellers: Extreme politics.

Moderation is the key to success. This country needs to reject extremism and needs to reject it now.
I find it ironic that so many conservatives complain about cancel culture and yet have no issues canceling Colin Kaepernick and Liz Cheney and Adam  Kinzinger

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2022, 11:26:29 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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It’s faux outrage. People don’t like being told what to do, let alone being told that they’re wrong. Even worse: they don’t want to be considered mean. Many can’t handle shame well, so they resort to victimization of a “cancel culture”.

At the expense of getting cancelled, I propose that the Tucker Carlsons of the world should grow a pair. Sack up, take your verbal beating on the chin, and move on.