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Author Topic: Brown Sticks With West  (Read 15936 times)

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Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #105 on: October 27, 2022, 11:53:38 PM »

Offline JSD

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Still no evidence of #3. I think it’s because most of the mean things people are saying can’t be justified. Instead, they attack “cancel culture”. Who is getting unjustly cancelled? I think it’s important to discuss situations rather than lazily throwing everything into “cancel culture”.
What about Colin Kaepernick? Is that a good example?

This is another good example.

The common denominator among all these cancellers: Extreme politics.

Moderation is the key to success. This country needs to reject extremism and needs to reject it now.
I find it ironic that so many conservatives complain about cancel culture and yet have no issues canceling Colin Kaepernick and Liz Cheney and Adam  Kinzinger

Kaepernick signed a multimillion dollar deal with Nike AFTER taking a knee and being out of the league because his low talent level didn't justify the distraction for NFL teams. Liz Cheney was ousted by her constituency whom she turned her back on. Kinzinger retired from congress as he likely would have met the same fate as Cheney. Both will go on to write books, become "best Sellers" as boxes of those books nobody will buy stack up somewhere in China, and both will probably end up with high paying jobs on one of your favorite news networks.

My point is you don't seem to know what cancel culture is or how it's implemented.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2022, 02:18:33 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Still no evidence of #3. I think it’s because most of the mean things people are saying can’t be justified. Instead, they attack “cancel culture”. Who is getting unjustly cancelled? I think it’s important to discuss situations rather than lazily throwing everything into “cancel culture”.
What about Colin Kaepernick? Is that a good example?

This is another good example.

The common denominator among all these cancellers: Extreme politics.

Moderation is the key to success. This country needs to reject extremism and needs to reject it now.
I find it ironic that so many conservatives complain about cancel culture and yet have no issues canceling Colin Kaepernick and Liz Cheney and Adam  Kinzinger

Kaepernick signed a multimillion dollar deal with Nike AFTER taking a knee and being out of the league because his low talent level didn't justify the distraction for NFL teams. Liz Cheney was ousted by her constituency whom she turned her back on. Kinzinger retired from congress as he likely would have met the same fate as Cheney. Both will go on to write books, become "best Sellers" as boxes of those books nobody will buy stack up somewhere in China, and both will probably end up with high paying jobs on one of your favorite news networks.

My point is you don't seem to know what cancel culture is or how it's implemented.
You really have no idea what you're talking about most of the time due to your warped world view, do you. Alternate facts and fake news and all.

Kaep was blackballed from the NFL for years based on what he said, not what he did and lost millions and millions because of it. That's the epitome of cancel culture.

Cheney lost her position of power because of her stance on Trump's false claims about the 2020 elections and insurrection. Again, a perfect example of being cancelled. Kinzinger was no different.

My point is cancel culture is used by all in society, yet only one political view denounces it while having no issue using it. Most here are intelligent to see these things. Obviously, you aren't most.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2022, 07:53:04 AM »

Online Roy H.

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In terms of "cancellation", how do people feel about still listening to Kanye's music?  Or buying his clothing?

Over time, I've come to the conclusion that when enjoying art, I just don't care that much.  Terrible people can make incredible masterpieces, and I tend not to pick and choose the works I appreciate based upon how good or bad somebody was.

I'll still watch reruns of the Cosby Show or Roseanne.  I still enjoy Mel Gibson movies.  Michael Jackson and Eminem made some great music.  Hell, I was reading last night that Jerry Lee Lewis ("Great Balls of Fire") married his 13 year old cousin when he was 22.  That disgusts me...  but I'll still sing along when the song comes on in Top Gun.

Can you separate art from the artist?  I think you can, at least usually.  I'm sure there are some extreme examples.  Very few people want to hang an Adolf Hitler painting in their house, and those who do are probably deranged.  But, that's because his evilness far outweighs any artistic merit.  What if he was a great painting master?  We still wouldn't want to own it, but would we appreciate it?  Would we discard it, or ponder how such a black-hearted lunatic could create amazing art?




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Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2022, 08:10:51 AM »

Offline Redz

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In terms of "cancellation", how do people feel about still listening to Kanye's music?  Or buying his clothing?

Over time, I've come to the conclusion that when enjoying art, I just don't care that much.  Terrible people can make incredible masterpieces, and I tend not to pick and choose the works I appreciate based upon how good or bad somebody was.

I'll still watch reruns of the Cosby Show or Roseanne.  I still enjoy Mel Gibson movies.  Michael Jackson and Eminem made some great music.  Hell, I was reading last night that Jerry Lee Lewis ("Great Balls of Fire") married his 13 year old cousin when he was 22.  That disgusts me...  but I'll still sing along when the song comes on in Top Gun.

Can you separate art from the artist?  I think you can, at least usually.  I'm sure there are some extreme examples.  Very few people want to hang an Adolf Hitler painting in their house, and those who do are probably deranged.  But, that's because his evilness far outweighs any artistic merit.  What if he was a great painting master?  We still wouldn't want to own it, but would we appreciate it?  Would we discard it, or ponder how such a black-hearted lunatic could create amazing art?

Hitler was a heck of a rapper  ;)

https://youtu.be/kmzPnpn63nA

I hear you.  I can definitely set aside personal stuff to listen to music I’m familiar with - but I think that’s because I associate more with the instruments than the lyrics somehow.  I haven’t tried watching the Cosby show but I think it would just seem dated - though I think I’d have no problem with a Fat Albert show.  Haven’t banned Jello pudding either…dating myself a little.

I also wonder how much we truly know about anyone unless they’ve expressed it outwardly and we happen to be paying attention.  I’m grateful, in some respects, that Kanye (can’t call him Ye) has been pretty clear on what his beliefs are.  I just wish they weren’t so potentially influential.

I am also fortunate that I don’t really like his music, so there’s no conflict.  My college aged daughter is very torn about it. 
Yup

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2022, 08:24:56 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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In terms of "cancellation", how do people feel about still listening to Kanye's music?  Or buying his clothing?

Over time, I've come to the conclusion that when enjoying art, I just don't care that much.  Terrible people can make incredible masterpieces, and I tend not to pick and choose the works I appreciate based upon how good or bad somebody was.

I'll still watch reruns of the Cosby Show or Roseanne.  I still enjoy Mel Gibson movies.  Michael Jackson and Eminem made some great music.  Hell, I was reading last night that Jerry Lee Lewis ("Great Balls of Fire") married his 13 year old cousin when he was 22.  That disgusts me...  but I'll still sing along when the song comes on in Top Gun.

Can you separate art from the artist?  I think you can, at least usually.  I'm sure there are some extreme examples.  Very few people want to hang an Adolf Hitler painting in their house, and those who do are probably deranged.  But, that's because his evilness far outweighs any artistic merit.  What if he was a great painting master?  We still wouldn't want to own it, but would we appreciate it?  Would we discard it, or ponder how such a black-hearted lunatic could create amazing art?
Pretty much where I stand.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2022, 08:42:59 AM »

Offline mobilija

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Appreciating and spending money on artistic endeavors is different.

I'll still watch, listen and ponder artistic accomplishments despite the horrible person behind it, but won't give them a red cent. Heck, you gotta twist my arm to spend money on Celtics gear or tix. The amount of money involved in the owners and players makes me ill.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #111 on: October 28, 2022, 08:52:14 AM »

Offline td450

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My take is that all of this behavior and the resulting spectrum of canceling has always been there. People have made always made such judgements and imposed them on other people and it has often been just as petty and venal as the examples we all see today.

And this didn't just happen among the powerful. People react to others emotionally all the time and the resulting judgements and actions can often be absurd.

What is different is that we have added social media to the mix.. It's a fire hose of normal human behavior, and we all are finding out just what we are all like. You don't just get exposed to this from your personal life anymore. You scroll through an ocean of it. It pops up at you all day. And it is driving everyone crazy.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #112 on: October 28, 2022, 09:21:24 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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In terms of "cancellation", how do people feel about still listening to Kanye's music?  Or buying his clothing?

Over time, I've come to the conclusion that when enjoying art, I just don't care that much.  Terrible people can make incredible masterpieces, and I tend not to pick and choose the works I appreciate based upon how good or bad somebody was.

I'll still watch reruns of the Cosby Show or Roseanne.  I still enjoy Mel Gibson movies.  Michael Jackson and Eminem made some great music.  Hell, I was reading last night that Jerry Lee Lewis ("Great Balls of Fire") married his 13 year old cousin when he was 22.  That disgusts me...  but I'll still sing along when the song comes on in Top Gun.

Can you separate art from the artist?  I think you can, at least usually.  I'm sure there are some extreme examples.  Very few people want to hang an Adolf Hitler painting in their house, and those who do are probably deranged.  But, that's because his evilness far outweighs any artistic merit.  What if he was a great painting master?  We still wouldn't want to own it, but would we appreciate it?  Would we discard it, or ponder how such a black-hearted lunatic could create amazing art?

I go both ways.  I loved the Cosby Show, but I can’t watch it without thinking about how horrible a person Bill Cosby was, and how antithetical it was to the show, so it’s completely eliminated the enjoyment I used to get from it.  But I can listen to Michael Jackson without thinking about this most of the time.  I was never a fan of Mel Gibson, but his rabid antisemitism is a no go, so he’ll never get a chance for me to see something he does in the future.

My personal threshold has probably three components: 1) Is the artist living or dead?  If s/he has died, they aren’t profiting from their work any more, so I’m not really supporting the artist but appreciating the work.  It’s a lot easier to divorce the art and artist in that case.  This is probably why I can listen to MJ.  2) How long ago was the incident?  Peter Yarrow did some pretty bad things 50+ years ago.  He went to jail and it seems like that behavior stopped, so yeah, my kid can listen to Puff the Magic Dragon.  3) Has the person tried to make amends/changed in some way because of the incident?  He’s not an artist, but the example that comes most quickly to my mind is Tim Hardaway Sr.  He said some very homophobic things years ago, met with gay rights organizations, listened, learned, and later worked with the NBA and its players to address homophobia in the sport.  I don’t need everyone who says something repugnant to become another Hardaway, but the point is that people should be given the opportunity to change.  At the same time, one of the positive things about “canceling” is that it can be a signal to that influencer that they have gone off-track, and some time to reflect and learn can be very positive.  I’m fine with giving people a second chance, as being a human means being imperfect.  But making an effort to change is important.

It’s also difficult, because in many cases the canceled artist has worked with many others to create their works, who are often lower in public stature than the canceled artist.  The Cosby Show is canceled, and a lot of other performers have their work erased as well for actions that weren’t theirs.  And honestly, a lot of them probably have feelings that run the gamut of the issue. 

I have personal experience with this.  Many years ago I was a singer trying to make it in the professional music world.  I was involved in a recording with a major artist that ultimately won a Grammy.  I’ve got a picture of myself with the Grammy, and it was a thrilling moment.  But several years later that artist was canceled, because he’d essentially had a long-running sex cult using both his personality but also his power to give musicians jobs.  I was completely unaware of this at the time I worked with him, and only learned about it through the news stories (no sex cult for me!)  I used to listen to that recording every few months, but I haven’t listened to it since, which has been several years now, because of this.  Maybe I will some day, but I haven’t moved on yet.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #113 on: October 28, 2022, 09:27:34 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
Jaylen Brown @FCHWPO
 
High school Students are potentially getting there scholarships pulled for there affiliation with Donda are we serious?

I hope that's not true.  And if it is true, I'd call on Kanye and Jaylen and Aaron Donald and others who care about these kids to set up their own scholarship for them. 


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Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #114 on: October 28, 2022, 09:30:02 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I have personal experience with this.  Many years ago I was a singer trying to make it in the professional music world.  I was involved in a recording with a major artist that ultimately won a Grammy.  I’ve got a picture of myself with the Grammy, and it was a thrilling moment.  But several years later that artist was canceled, because he’d essentially had a long-running sex cult using both his personality but also his power to give musicians jobs.  I was completely unaware of this at the time I worked with him, and only learned about it through the news stories (no sex cult for me!)  I used to listen to that recording every few months, but I haven’t listened to it since, which has been several years now, because of this.  Maybe I will some day, but I haven’t moved on yet.

Wild story.  I can understand not wanting to listen to the recording, but I hope you're still proud of your work. 


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Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #115 on: October 28, 2022, 10:01:13 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I have personal experience with this.  Many years ago I was a singer trying to make it in the professional music world.  I was involved in a recording with a major artist that ultimately won a Grammy.  I’ve got a picture of myself with the Grammy, and it was a thrilling moment.  But several years later that artist was canceled, because he’d essentially had a long-running sex cult using both his personality but also his power to give musicians jobs.  I was completely unaware of this at the time I worked with him, and only learned about it through the news stories (no sex cult for me!)  I used to listen to that recording every few months, but I haven’t listened to it since, which has been several years now, because of this.  Maybe I will some day, but I haven’t moved on yet.

Wild story.  I can understand not wanting to listen to the recording, but I hope you're still proud of your work.

I'm not as proud as I should or otherwise would be.   When people ask about my top experiences as a musician, it used to be #1.  Now it's around #5, and a lot of times it doesn't come up.

I still talk to a few of the others I made that recording with, and their opinions run the gamut from not caring about the issue at all and thus completely enjoying the experience to basically trying to erase the entire experience from their lives.  It's emotionally complex to deal with, and I think the problem with the "cancel culture" issue is that we've lost sight of the complexity of it all, on both sides of the debate.  I lean towards "canceling", but I do think the social media aspect of it creates a mob mentality that often loses the grace we need as part of humanity.  At the same time, speaking from personal experience, the anger and hurt is real, and I think those who are quick to throw out the term "cancel culture" with a negative connotation need to just step back and let people be hurt and angry at things that they probably have good reason to be hurt and angered by.  Keep enjoying the person's work if you can separate the two -- that's fine.  Believe me when I say I wish I could do that too at times.  But let people be angry without trying to deride them.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #116 on: October 28, 2022, 10:05:02 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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Jaylen Brown @FCHWPO
 
High school Students are potentially getting there scholarships pulled for there affiliation with Donda are we serious?

I hope that's not true.  And if it is true, I'd call on Kanye and Jaylen and Aaron Donald and others who care about these kids to set up their own scholarship for them.

It's not untrue about the potential.  The Donda Academy might be closing.  It's a bit more complex than "scholarships getting pulled", because if the school closes because of this, it's not about paying tuition somewhere, it's about finding somewhere to pay tuition to.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #117 on: October 28, 2022, 10:38:19 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Just to add fuel to the fire:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/yfn16j/jaylen_brown_likes_then_unlikes_hours_later/

Apparently, Jaylen liked and then unliked a tweet that said, "Them Boston fans about to show you the true colors." Not sure what to make of it, but thought it was relevant to the topic at hand.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #118 on: October 28, 2022, 11:08:34 AM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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Just to add fuel to the fire:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/yfn16j/jaylen_brown_likes_then_unlikes_hours_later/

Apparently, Jaylen liked and then unliked a tweet that said, "Them Boston fans about to show you the true colors." Not sure what to make of it, but thought it was relevant to the topic at hand.

There were many Celtics fans that saw his performance in the Finals, then wanted to trade him with other players and picks for an aging malcontent KD. Not a great look.

Re: Brown Sticks With West
« Reply #119 on: October 28, 2022, 11:26:17 AM »

Online Roy H.

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Just to add fuel to the fire:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/yfn16j/jaylen_brown_likes_then_unlikes_hours_later/

Apparently, Jaylen liked and then unliked a tweet that said, "Them Boston fans about to show you the true colors." Not sure what to make of it, but thought it was relevant to the topic at hand.

There were many Celtics fans that saw his performance in the Finals, then wanted to trade him with other players and picks for an aging malcontent KD. Not a great look.

Not only fans, but also Brad Stevens.

I'm not sure that it's a bad look, though.  I think most GMs, coaches, fans and players would take KD over the next two or three years.  If JB is upset that his name briefly came up in conversations, then his skin is too thin.


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