New Celtics / Durant rumor

[Vermont Green]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Why leave the comparison at rookie 3PT %?

Jaylen Brown as a 20 year-old rookie averaged 7/3/1 on 45/34/69 shooting, playing on a 53 win team. Barnes averaged 15/8/4 on 49/30/74 shooting, playing on a 48 win team.

Brown is obviously the better player now, but Barnes was an amazing rookie with all the physical gifts one could ask for.

Barnes played 35 min per game his rookie season and Brown only played 17 min per game so the absolute per game stats are hard to compare, and I am not big on per 36 as a normalizer.

I agree that Barnes is a promising young player as was Brown and am not trying to tit for tat compare them.  I just don't see why he would be the reason to not get Durant.  Now if you are not that sold on Durant, if you are uncertain whether you are going to be able to get 2-4 seasons of top level play out of Durant then that is something different.  If you are worried about his durability or mind set, then you shouldn't want to trade for him in any case.

[Roy H.]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Why leave the comparison at rookie 3PT %?

Jaylen Brown as a 20 year-old rookie averaged 7/3/1 on 45/34/69 shooting, playing on a 53 win team. Barnes averaged 15/8/4 on 49/30/74 shooting, playing on a 48 win team.

Brown is obviously the better player now, but Barnes was an amazing rookie with all the physical gifts one could ask for.

Agreed. And Barnes’ on-ball defense at least as good, his team defense looks quite a bit better. His raw talent is very impressive. His future looks like all-NBA, if he keeps developing.

I get that Barnes is a promising young player but say both were on the Celtics and you were the GM. Would you trade Brown for Durant but not trade Barnes?   So Barnes is more equivalent to Tatum? 

I find it surprising that Toronto puts that kind of value on Barnes.

Keep in mind the rookie salary / team control aspect.

So you agree?  You would include Brown in a trade for Durant but not Barnes?  It does not surprise you that Toronto has drawn a red line at Barnes?

I guess it may be more that Toronto has so many options.  If the rumors are true (and I doubt they are) it was reported that the Celtics would do Brown and White but not Brown and Smart.  I guess that isn't that they wouldn't trade Smart.  Maybe it was more like that for Toronto.  They would trade Siakam and Anunoby but not Siakam and Barnes, something like that.  It isn't how it is being reported though.

My guess is that if were just Barnes, salary filler and draft picks, Barnes would be gone.  But, Barnes makes less than $8 million.  They're going to have to pair him with somebody good going out.  That's likely either Siakim, or two of VanVleet, Trent Jr. and Anunoby.

For a guy who they see as a multi-time All-Star on a very, very cheap contract, that's a bridge too far.

[Moranis]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Why leave the comparison at rookie 3PT %?

Jaylen Brown as a 20 year-old rookie averaged 7/3/1 on 45/34/69 shooting, playing on a 53 win team. Barnes averaged 15/8/4 on 49/30/74 shooting, playing on a 48 win team.

Brown is obviously the better player now, but Barnes was an amazing rookie with all the physical gifts one could ask for.

Agreed. And Barnes’ on-ball defense at least as good, his team defense looks quite a bit better. His raw talent is very impressive. His future looks like all-NBA, if he keeps developing.

I get that Barnes is a promising young player but say both were on the Celtics and you were the GM. Would you trade Brown for Durant but not trade Barnes?   So Barnes is more equivalent to Tatum? 

I find it surprising that Toronto puts that kind of value on Barnes.

Keep in mind the rookie salary / team control aspect.

So you agree?  You would include Brown in a trade for Durant but not Barnes?  It does not surprise you that Toronto has drawn a red line at Barnes?

I guess it may be more that Toronto has so many options.  If the rumors are true (and I doubt they are) it was reported that the Celtics would do Brown and White but not Brown and Smart.  I guess that isn't that they wouldn't trade Smart.  Maybe it was more like that for Toronto.  They would trade Siakam and Anunoby but not Siakam and Barnes, something like that.  It isn't how it is being reported though.

My guess is that if were just Barnes, salary filler and draft picks, Barnes would be gone.  But, Barnes makes less than $8 million.  They're going to have to pair him with somebody good going out.  That's likely either Siakim, or two of VanVleet, Trent Jr. and Anunoby.

For a guy who they see as a multi-time All-Star on a very, very cheap contract, that's a bridge too far.

I think this is right.  I also think Barnes has potential that exceeds what Brown is.  He obviously has to get there, but I think he has more of the Tatum ceiling as opposed to the Brown ceiling. 

If Toronto offered Barnes for Brown, straight up, I'd probably do that as I think it gives Boston a better shot at winning championships (not next year, but in the future).  And that should absolutely be the goal.

[td450]

Does trading for Durant bring you a strong shot at a title for 2 years?

In the case of Boston or Toronto, you would trade a foundational player (Brown/Barnes) plus probably at least one good rotation player plus 2 or three 1sts.

So a big part of the value exchange is the picks. A team is trading unutilized future value and getting Durant now. That is a big part of the promised improvement of Durant.

What happens to Boston or Toronto if they made the same trade minus the stars? Three 1sts, plus Derrick White or even Marcus Smart brings that future value onto the team just like trading for Durant would. Doesn't that get us a foundational big? Can anyone say Durant would make us better than if we kept Brown and added Collins or Sabonis or Capela?

[gouki88]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Why leave the comparison at rookie 3PT %?

Jaylen Brown as a 20 year-old rookie averaged 7/3/1 on 45/34/69 shooting, playing on a 53 win team. Barnes averaged 15/8/4 on 49/30/74 shooting, playing on a 48 win team.

Brown is obviously the better player now, but Barnes was an amazing rookie with all the physical gifts one could ask for.

Barnes played 35 min per game his rookie season and Brown only played 17 min per game so the absolute per game stats are hard to compare, and I am not big on per 36 as a normalizer.

I agree that Barnes is a promising young player as was Brown and am not trying to tit for tat compare them.  I just don't see why he would be the reason to not get Durant.  Now if you are not that sold on Durant, if you are uncertain whether you are going to be able to get 2-4 seasons of top level play out of Durant then that is something different.  If you are worried about his durability or mind set, then you shouldn't want to trade for him in any case.

There is a reason Barnes played a lot more as a rookie on a similarly good team is all I’m saying.

Toronto may not be comfortable with what they would have to send out in total for KD, alongside Barnes. Maybe not confident it would lead to a title shot

[Who]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Jaylen Brown is unlikely to ever be a franchise player but he is a young perennial All-Star at 25 years old. That is very valuable. I rate him as a top 20 player in the NBA.

Scottie Barnes is not an All-Star. He is not a top 20 player in the NBA. He may not be a top 50 player in the NBA. He is however a blue chip young prospect who Toronto view as a possible franchise player level talent.

I view S.Barnes as very similar to Iguodala who I rated as a perennial All-Star; I am still amazed that Iggy played only 1 All-Star game just as I am amazed that Jaylen has only gotten 1 All-Star nod over the last few years. So I'd rate Iggy at his peak as somewhat similar to Jaylen today (who is still improving). Jaylen a better scorer; Iggy a better non-scorer (man defender, team defender, ball-handler, passer).

However, while I view Scottie Barnes as similar to Iggy, I do believe it would be a mistake to limit him to Iggy in terms of future potential. He is very young and has shown good signs of scoring ability. He could become Iggy-plus meaning Iggy + improved scoring which could very well make Scottie Barnes a top 10 player in the NBA someday and very much a franchise player talent (rather than a top 20 player & perennial All-Star).

Which leaves a few questions: Would you trade a 34yo Durant for 15yrs of Iguodala? I would not. Would you trade a 34yo Durant for a 15yrs of a future franchise player? I would not.

Then again, maybe Scottie Barnes ends up disappointing (does not develop), fails to reach either plateau, and finishes up more as a top 50 level player than a top 20 player ... in which case you would trade him Durant.

I am high enough on Scottie Barnes' talent that I would not trade him if I were in Toronto's shoes. It would be a non-starter. Dead in the water. Not on the table, never on the table. No deal.

[Celtics2021]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Why leave the comparison at rookie 3PT %?

Jaylen Brown as a 20 year-old rookie averaged 7/3/1 on 45/34/69 shooting, playing on a 53 win team. Barnes averaged 15/8/4 on 49/30/74 shooting, playing on a 48 win team.

Brown is obviously the better player now, but Barnes was an amazing rookie with all the physical gifts one could ask for.

Barnes played 35 min per game his rookie season and Brown only played 17 min per game so the absolute per game stats are hard to compare, and I am not big on per 36 as a normalizer.

I agree that Barnes is a promising young player as was Brown and am not trying to tit for tat compare them.  I just don't see why he would be the reason to not get Durant.  Now if you are not that sold on Durant, if you are uncertain whether you are going to be able to get 2-4 seasons of top level play out of Durant then that is something different.  If you are worried about his durability or mind set, then you shouldn't want to trade for him in any case.

There is a reason Barnes played a lot more as a rookie on a similarly good team is all I’m saying.

Toronto may not be comfortable with what they would have to send out in total for KD, alongside Barnes. Maybe not confident it would lead to a title shot

I would push back that it was a similarly good team, for what it's worth.  The Celtics were coming off a 48-34 season, compared to the Raptors lottery season, and thus were trying to win from the get-go rather than get their high lottery pick a lot of minutes.  Similarly, the Celtics were near the top of the conference all season long, limiting Brown's minutes to a degree, whereas the Raptors were a .500 team in late January.  Lastly, the Celtics were being led by Isaiah Thomas, who was having a season the rightfully put him in all the MVP conversations, and so the on-court roles available to Brown and Barnes were very different.

Put a different way, I'm not sure that Scottie Barnes on the 2016-2017 Celtics has a substantially larger role than Jaylen Brown did.  Maybe he does, but the team contexts are different enough that there is significant uncertainty.

[LilRip]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Jaylen Brown is unlikely to ever be a franchise player but he is a young perennial All-Star at 25 years old. That is very valuable. I rate him as a top 20 player in the NBA.

Scottie Barnes is not an All-Star. He is not a top 20 player in the NBA. He may not be a top 50 player in the NBA. He is however a blue chip young prospect who Toronto view as a possible franchise player level talent.

I view S.Barnes as very similar to Iguodala who I rated as a perennial All-Star; I am still amazed that Iggy played only 1 All-Star game just as I am amazed that Jaylen has only gotten 1 All-Star nod over the last few years. So I'd rate Iggy at his peak as somewhat similar to Jaylen today (who is still improving). Jaylen a better scorer; Iggy a better non-scorer (man defender, team defender, ball-handler, passer).

However, while I view Scottie Barnes as similar to Iggy, I do believe it would be a mistake to limit him to Iggy in terms of future potential. He is very young and has shown good signs of scoring ability. He could become Iggy-plus meaning Iggy + improved scoring which could very well make Scottie Barnes a top 10 player in the NBA someday and very much a franchise player talent (rather than a top 20 player & perennial All-Star).

Which leaves a few questions: Would you trade a 34yo Durant for 15yrs of Iguodala? I would not. Would you trade a 34yo Durant for a 15yrs of a future franchise player? I would not.

Then again, maybe Scottie Barnes ends up disappointing (does not develop), fails to reach either plateau, and finishes up more as a top 50 level player than a top 20 player ... in which case you would trade him Durant.

I am high enough on Scottie Barnes' talent that I would not trade him if I were in Toronto's shoes. It would be a non-starter. Dead in the water. Not on the table, never on the table. No deal.

I don’t think JB is a perennial allstar. I think he’s a fringe allstar who can occasionally make the team if his team is winning. It’s Tatum who is a perennial allstar in that he will always make the team (if he plays enough games), regardless of his team’s performance.

I also think JB is only arguably top 20. When healthy, that list roughly goes Jokic, Lebron, Giannis, Luka, KD, Embiid, Tatum, Steph, Butler, Morant, Kawhi, AD, Booker, CP3, Trae, and Lillard as your top 16 (no particular order). They all contribute a lot to their team winning. Harden would’ve been on that list too but last year gave me pause.

Then the last few spots are fought for by many deserving candidates such as JB, Siakam, PG, Ingram, KAT, Gobert, Mitchell, Derozan, Beal, Kyrie, and even Ben freakin Simmons (if he ever plays again). And then to be seen but are really up and coming and may overtake some guys: Anthony Edwards and Zion.

[Roy H.]

FOX Sports NBA reporter Ric Bucher asked GMs from across the league one simple question: What gets a deal done for KD, and would you do it?

One Eastern conference GM said “the Nets should ask that he be part of the deal. Because Marcus [Smart] just brings a different element. There’s risk, but with all the great ones, there’s normally risk. And not to say Marcus is great, but when he’s good he’s really, really [expletive] good.”

A Western Conference GM argued that the Celtics might be better served swapping Jayson Tatum for Durant while keeping Brown and Smart.

“I know he’s a lot younger than KD, but if you’re just trying to win one title, do you trade Tatum for Durant? I’d do that before I’d give them Jaylen and Smart.”

“Brown is valued a little less than Tatum because he’s not the skill darling. He’s a high level athlete who has developed into a good player. But I have to think Brooklyn would prefer Tatum and you wouldn’t have to give up Smart.”

One Western Conference team needs to fire its GM.

[Celtics2021]

FOX Sports NBA reporter Ric Bucher asked GMs from across the league one simple question: What gets a deal done for KD, and would you do it?

One Eastern conference GM said “the Nets should ask that he be part of the deal. Because Marcus [Smart] just brings a different element. There’s risk, but with all the great ones, there’s normally risk. And not to say Marcus is great, but when he’s good he’s really, really [expletive] good.”

A Western Conference GM argued that the Celtics might be better served swapping Jayson Tatum for Durant while keeping Brown and Smart.

“I know he’s a lot younger than KD, but if you’re just trying to win one title, do you trade Tatum for Durant? I’d do that before I’d give them Jaylen and Smart.”

“Brown is valued a little less than Tatum because he’s not the skill darling. He’s a high level athlete who has developed into a good player. But I have to think Brooklyn would prefer Tatum and you wouldn’t have to give up Smart.”

One Western Conference team needs to fire its GM.

True, but if the Brown-Celtics relationship is destroyed, the Celtics had better call that GM before his job is gone to negotiate a Jaylen trade. 

[Sophomore]

I find the contrast of Toronto not willing to trade Barnes and the Celtics at least willing to discuss trading Brown interesting. I see Brown as a much better player than Barnes. Barnes shot 30% from three. Maybe I am missing some thing with Barnes.  Brown was 34% from three his rookie season.

Why leave the comparison at rookie 3PT %?

Jaylen Brown as a 20 year-old rookie averaged 7/3/1 on 45/34/69 shooting, playing on a 53 win team. Barnes averaged 15/8/4 on 49/30/74 shooting, playing on a 48 win team.

Brown is obviously the better player now, but Barnes was an amazing rookie with all the physical gifts one could ask for.

Agreed. And Barnes’ on-ball defense at least as good, his team defense looks quite a bit better. His raw talent is very impressive. His future looks like all-NBA, if he keeps developing.

I get that Barnes is a promising young player but say both were on the Celtics and you were the GM. Would you trade Brown for Durant but not trade Barnes?   So Barnes is more equivalent to Tatum? 

I find it surprising that Toronto puts that kind of value on Barnes.

I probably wouldn’t make that trade, but only because we are all-in next year. Brown next year should be better than Barnes next year.

But if I could, hypothetically, get the 25-year old version of Barnes it might be a different story. My guess is he’ll be a better player than 25-year old Jaylen - real chance to be a top-ten guy.

[vjcsmoke]

I do think top 20 is ranking Brown a little high.  I'm comfortable rating him as top 30 and can get into the all star game much of the time but not a perennial all-star yet by any means.  The value in Brown over someone like Scotty Barnes is that JB is fully developed and ready to contribute now.  He could easily lead the Raptors into the playoffs if we swapped Scotty Barnes for JB.  But that's not the deal on the table.

Stevens is looking to upgrade to Durant and turn what was a Finals appearance instead into a Finals Championship win.  It's all about the rings in Beantown.

The late great Russell, was the greatest champion in NBA history.  We've got a tradition for championships with the Celtics.  The standard is set very high.

[Moranis]

FOX Sports NBA reporter Ric Bucher asked GMs from across the league one simple question: What gets a deal done for KD, and would you do it?

One Eastern conference GM said “the Nets should ask that he be part of the deal. Because Marcus [Smart] just brings a different element. There’s risk, but with all the great ones, there’s normally risk. And not to say Marcus is great, but when he’s good he’s really, really [expletive] good.”

A Western Conference GM argued that the Celtics might be better served swapping Jayson Tatum for Durant while keeping Brown and Smart.

“I know he’s a lot younger than KD, but if you’re just trying to win one title, do you trade Tatum for Durant? I’d do that before I’d give them Jaylen and Smart.”

“Brown is valued a little less than Tatum because he’s not the skill darling. He’s a high level athlete who has developed into a good player. But I have to think Brooklyn would prefer Tatum and you wouldn’t have to give up Smart.”

One Western Conference team needs to fire its GM.

To be fair, he didn't say he would make the trade only that you could argue a team with both Smart and Brown (next to Durant) is better than just the duo of Tatum and Durant.  I disagree but I'd bet there are people on this board that would agree with that assessment.

[Vermont Green]

FOX Sports NBA reporter Ric Bucher asked GMs from across the league one simple question: What gets a deal done for KD, and would you do it?

One Eastern conference GM said “the Nets should ask that he be part of the deal. Because Marcus [Smart] just brings a different element. There’s risk, but with all the great ones, there’s normally risk. And not to say Marcus is great, but when he’s good he’s really, really [expletive] good.”

A Western Conference GM argued that the Celtics might be better served swapping Jayson Tatum for Durant while keeping Brown and Smart.

“I know he’s a lot younger than KD, but if you’re just trying to win one title, do you trade Tatum for Durant? I’d do that before I’d give them Jaylen and Smart.”

“Brown is valued a little less than Tatum because he’s not the skill darling. He’s a high level athlete who has developed into a good player. But I have to think Brooklyn would prefer Tatum and you wouldn’t have to give up Smart.”

One Western Conference team needs to fire its GM.

To be fair, he didn't say he would make the trade only that you could argue a team with both Smart and Brown (next to Durant) is better than just the duo of Tatum and Durant.  I disagree but I'd bet there are people on this board that would agree with that assessment.

I look at it the other way.  What is better to pair with Tatum, Brown and Smart or Durant.  That is worth some discussion or consideration.  Of course Brooklyn would prefer Tatum.

I guess if you look at this and say it was Giannis and not Durant that we were trading for, the question makes a little more sense.  Would you rather trade Tatum for Giannis or Brown and Smart for Giannis.  I guess that is what this GM was getting at.  Tatum for Giannis is at least a reasonable hypothetical to consider.  Tatum for Durant is not.

[Moranis]

FOX Sports NBA reporter Ric Bucher asked GMs from across the league one simple question: What gets a deal done for KD, and would you do it?

One Eastern conference GM said “the Nets should ask that he be part of the deal. Because Marcus [Smart] just brings a different element. There’s risk, but with all the great ones, there’s normally risk. And not to say Marcus is great, but when he’s good he’s really, really [expletive] good.”

A Western Conference GM argued that the Celtics might be better served swapping Jayson Tatum for Durant while keeping Brown and Smart.

“I know he’s a lot younger than KD, but if you’re just trying to win one title, do you trade Tatum for Durant? I’d do that before I’d give them Jaylen and Smart.”

“Brown is valued a little less than Tatum because he’s not the skill darling. He’s a high level athlete who has developed into a good player. But I have to think Brooklyn would prefer Tatum and you wouldn’t have to give up Smart.”

One Western Conference team needs to fire its GM.

To be fair, he didn't say he would make the trade only that you could argue a team with both Smart and Brown (next to Durant) is better than just the duo of Tatum and Durant.  I disagree but I'd bet there are people on this board that would agree with that assessment.

I look at it the other way.  What is better to pair with Tatum, Brown and Smart or Durant.  That is worth some discussion or consideration.  Of course Brooklyn would prefer Tatum.

I guess if you look at this and say it was Giannis and not Durant that we were trading for, the question makes a little more sense.  Would you rather trade Tatum for Giannis or Brown and Smart for Giannis.  I guess that is what this GM was getting at.  Tatum for Giannis is at least a reasonable hypothetical to consider.  Tatum for Durant is not.

Tatum for Giannis is only reasonable because there would be no other option.  Milwaukee wouldn't take Brown and Smart instead of Tatum, but let's say they would, would you rather have Tatum and Giannis or Brown, Smart, and Giannis.  It is the same decision point in both situations.  I'd always rather have Tatum than Brown and Smart and it isn't close for me, but I can at least see where someone could make the argument the other way.