Lebron calls Celtics fans racist

[Roy H.]

Roy- for your info, I remember Shaq being called a “big ugly gorilla” in the old garden and people laughing. Is this not a racially motivated comment? How can you defend this fan?

I wouldn't defend that fan.  That's specific information, and the overwhelming majority of people who call black men "gorillas" would be racist.

But, that's not what Lebron provided for information.  He gave two examples that aren't inherently linked to race.  They're hostile acts, vulgar acts, assaultive acts...  but not necessarily racist.  And, I don't think it's wrong to ask him what he's referring to.

Likewise, it's fair game to ask you why, as a white guy in a very white state, your race-o-meter only ticks over to 'AF' in a country most famous for apartheid policies that ended fewer than 30 years ago - when for most people (and particularly most black athletes) the bar for 'AF' status is probably lower.

But that's kind of rude and not really relevant to the point of the discussion, so no one is asking you because we're trusting what you're saying based on your lived experiences.

See how that works?

Feel free to question away.  I don't think it's rude.  When describing a group that contains millions of people, I don't know how many I'd describe as "racist a F---".  Probably not many.  Even among folks in South Africa, I'd probably use a qualifier, such as "from my experience, many of the whites in South Africa are racist as f---".

[Kernewek]

Roy- for your info, I remember Shaq being called a “big ugly gorilla” in the old garden and people laughing. Is this not a racially motivated comment? How can you defend this fan?

I wouldn't defend that fan.  That's specific information, and the overwhelming majority of people who call black men "gorillas" would be racist.

But, that's not what Lebron provided for information.  He gave two examples that aren't inherently linked to race.  They're hostile acts, vulgar acts, assaultive acts...  but not necessarily racist.  And, I don't think it's wrong to ask him what he's referring to.

Likewise, it's fair game to ask you why, as a white guy in a very white state, your race-o-meter only ticks over to 'AF' in a country most famous for apartheid policies that ended fewer than 30 years ago - when for most people (and particularly most black athletes) the bar for 'AF' status is probably lower.

But that's kind of rude and not really relevant to the point of the discussion, so no one is asking you because we're trusting what you're saying based on your lived experiences.

See how that works?

Feel free to question away.  I don't think it's rude.  When describing a group that contains millions of people, I don't know how many I'd describe as "racist a F---".  Probably not many.  Even among folks in South Africa, I'd probably use a qualifier, such as "from my experience, many of the whites in South Africa are racist as f---".

Yeah I went back and edited in some more context a few minutes ago.

Dude made a throwaway comment. I don’t think many athletes are great intellects, but I’m also not expecting them to be: I want them to put the ball in the hoop. So I’m not going to hold their arguments up to the same scrutiny that I would if they were professional intellectuals.

[kraidstar]

More from Smart

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/marcus-smart-nba-boston-celtics-covid-racial-injustice

Me and discrimination, me and racial profiling … we go way back.

We’ve got history.

As a kid back home in Texas, I was followed by sales associates in stores and called derogatory names more times than I can count. When I was a sophomore at Oklahoma State, a fan decided that it was perfectly O.K. for him to call me the n-word after I fell into the seats during a game.

When I got to the league in 2014, the racism didn’t stop.   

My rookie year, I bought a new Range Rover, and, knowing what I know about traffic stops in this country, I made [dang] sure that the tint on the windows was legal. Somehow, though … I just kept getting pulled over for my tint.

One time it was like, “This is a pretty nice car. Pretty expensive. It’s yours?”

Another time, I get pulled over for the tint again, and the officer recognizes who I am. So for whatever reason he starts going in on Colin Kaepernick.

“I can’t believe that guy would actually kneel like that during the anthem,” he tells me. “Can you believe that? I’m just really glad you’re not like that guy. Right? You’re not one of them.”

I was terrified hearing that.

I felt like that officer was looking for me to challenge him, or to respond in a way that would allow him to take some action against me. I basically just kept quiet, hoped for the best, and asked, again and again, “Is that all, officer?”

A year or so later, I got pulled over for speeding and it was just ... more of the same.

“Nice ride. Are you a rapper or something?”

And then….

“No, you speak too well to be a rapper.”

I could go on, I’m sad to say.

There are several more, including stuff that’s happened right inside NBA arenas.

But the incident that has stuck with me the most, and that’s had the biggest impact on me, occurred a few years back after a victory at the Garden.

I was pulling out of the arena parking lot when I saw a white woman with her five- or six-year-old son crossing against the light right as the cars were starting to come at them. I had my windows down and realized something bad was about to happen, so I yelled to her, politely, that she needed to hurry and get out of the street so the two of them wouldn’t get hurt.

The woman was wearing an Isaiah Thomas number 4 Celts jersey. And there were all these other Celtics fans around who were at the game. I figured she’d be cool. 

Nope.

She swung her head around and it was….

“F*** you, you f***ing n-word!!!!”

For a second it was like I couldn’t breathe.

Did she really say that?

And in an instant, just like that, I was made to feel less than human.

I wasn’t a person to this woman. I was a form of entertainment. Nothing more. And, believe me, it took every ounce of restraint in my body not to curse her out.

A few seconds later, I drove off. I just wanted it to be over.

But I think about that night, that moment, a lot. And more than anything else, I think about….

That little boy.

Wow! I love that.  I'd like to comment more but have to run.  Interested in responses from those who tend to minimize racial prejudice experienced by Black Americans.

Yeah that is pretty messed up. What I find most disturbing is that these cops feel entitled to so freely offer their "opinions" to a citizen. They should be fired for that straight up, as you would be at almost any other job.

I have a buddy, who is a minority,   who was driving from Cali to New England. He got pulled over in Illinois for some nonsense reason and the cop put him in the back of the cruiser and started interrogating him about his job. When my friend told the cop he worked for a certain social media company, the cop went on a rant about how social media companies are the enemies of free speech. my friend was terrified about what this weirdo might do to him.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Roy- for your info, I remember Shaq being called a “big ugly gorilla” in the old garden and people laughing. Is this not a racially motivated comment? How can you defend this fan?

I wouldn't defend that fan.  That's specific information, and the overwhelming majority of people who call black men "gorillas" would be racist.

But, that's not what Lebron provided for information.  He gave two examples that aren't inherently linked to race.  They're hostile acts, vulgar acts, assaultive acts...  but not necessarily racist.  And, I don't think it's wrong to ask him what he's referring to.

Likewise, it's fair game to ask you why, as a white guy in a very white state, your race-o-meter only ticks over to 'AF' in a country most famous for apartheid policies that ended fewer than 30 years ago - when for most people (and particularly most black athletes) the bar for 'AF' status is probably lower.

But that's kind of rude and not really relevant to the point of the discussion, so no one is asking you because we're trusting what you're saying based on your lived experiences.

See how that works?

Feel free to question away.  I don't think it's rude.  When describing a group that contains millions of people, I don't know how many I'd describe as "racist a F---".  Probably not many.  Even among folks in South Africa, I'd probably use a qualifier, such as "from my experience, many of the whites in South Africa are racist as f---".

I agree with this. Most people are good. Some people ruin it for others. Throw a small amount of pickle juice on an ice cream and it quickly becomes ruined. The Celtics haven’t figured out how to prevent pickles from walking in and ruining an event (or at least the perception of an event).

I’d like to say I’d pound a person for throwing garbage at a black person, but I bet I would sheepishly call an usher to the effect of very little action. Maybe more people need to be willing to call out the bad seeds. Maybe good guys with guns?

[Roy H.]

Where do white entertainers receive this abuse? I’ve been thinking about it. I’ve been to many football games at Gillette and haven’t heard anything racial. I’ve heard multiple boos at black players kneeling during the national anthem, but that’s a more nuanced topic including nationalism.

Does this happen in WWE? I’ve never been. UFC? I’ve heard the Premiership deals with racism, but not towards white players.

The optics are:

Vast majority of fans are white

And

Some Fans loudly abuse players

And

Vast majority of players are black

It isn’t rocket science to see what conclusions are drawn. If a black player has garbage thrown at him, I’m certainly not going to say with conviction that it wasn’t a racist act.

Here's a partial list of fan-related incidents. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_violent_spectator_incidents_in_sports

I have no idea what percentage are directed at black players.  Some are undoubtedly racist in nature.  And, the list leaves off a lot of incidents that are probably noteworthy, such as Lebron having the beer poured on him (in 2012; based upon his 2017 remarks, he didn't think this was a racist incident at the time.)

Here's an article discussing (or celebrating) three beer incidents, two regarding white players and one Latino.

https://larrybrownsports.com/hockey/blackhawks-fans-adam-pardy-helmet-beer-video/209918

[Rondo9]

More from Smart

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/marcus-smart-nba-boston-celtics-covid-racial-injustice

Me and discrimination, me and racial profiling … we go way back.

We’ve got history.

As a kid back home in Texas, I was followed by sales associates in stores and called derogatory names more times than I can count. When I was a sophomore at Oklahoma State, a fan decided that it was perfectly O.K. for him to call me the n-word after I fell into the seats during a game.

When I got to the league in 2014, the racism didn’t stop.   

My rookie year, I bought a new Range Rover, and, knowing what I know about traffic stops in this country, I made [dang] sure that the tint on the windows was legal. Somehow, though … I just kept getting pulled over for my tint.

One time it was like, “This is a pretty nice car. Pretty expensive. It’s yours?”

Another time, I get pulled over for the tint again, and the officer recognizes who I am. So for whatever reason he starts going in on Colin Kaepernick.

“I can’t believe that guy would actually kneel like that during the anthem,” he tells me. “Can you believe that? I’m just really glad you’re not like that guy. Right? You’re not one of them.”

I was terrified hearing that.

I felt like that officer was looking for me to challenge him, or to respond in a way that would allow him to take some action against me. I basically just kept quiet, hoped for the best, and asked, again and again, “Is that all, officer?”

A year or so later, I got pulled over for speeding and it was just ... more of the same.

“Nice ride. Are you a rapper or something?”

And then….

“No, you speak too well to be a rapper.”

I could go on, I’m sad to say.

There are several more, including stuff that’s happened right inside NBA arenas.

But the incident that has stuck with me the most, and that’s had the biggest impact on me, occurred a few years back after a victory at the Garden.

I was pulling out of the arena parking lot when I saw a white woman with her five- or six-year-old son crossing against the light right as the cars were starting to come at them. I had my windows down and realized something bad was about to happen, so I yelled to her, politely, that she needed to hurry and get out of the street so the two of them wouldn’t get hurt.

The woman was wearing an Isaiah Thomas number 4 Celts jersey. And there were all these other Celtics fans around who were at the game. I figured she’d be cool. 

Nope.

She swung her head around and it was….

“F*** you, you f***ing n-word!!!!”

For a second it was like I couldn’t breathe.

Did she really say that?

And in an instant, just like that, I was made to feel less than human.

I wasn’t a person to this woman. I was a form of entertainment. Nothing more. And, believe me, it took every ounce of restraint in my body not to curse her out.

A few seconds later, I drove off. I just wanted it to be over.

But I think about that night, that moment, a lot. And more than anything else, I think about….

That little boy.

Wow! I love that.  I'd like to comment more but have to run.  Interested in responses from those who tend to minimize racial prejudice experienced by Black Americans.

Honestly I think the average person would be horrified, no need to fan the flames.

[SHAQATTACK]

I guess by saying that , he thinks Boston fans will cheer for him next visit to garden . I wouldn’t hold my breath . 

IMO he probably has fanned the flames .

[RJ87]

I guess by saying that , he thinks Boston fans will cheer for him next visit to garden . I wouldn’t hold my breath . 

IMO he probably has fanned the flames .

I thoroughly doubt he thinks that. If anything, I'm sure he'll expect the crowd to be more hostile and then some dummy in the crowd will take it too far, proving his point. Just like Kyrie and the kid throwing the water bottle.

[celticsclay]

My main issue is that LeBron spoke so flippantly and doesn't really have anything insightful or interesting to say about this topic.

Of course there are racists in Boston. Of course there are racial undertones in sports. There are racial undertones in everything in America. We are constantly looking for enemies within. You see a Biden or a Trump banner in someone's yard and the mind jumps to all sorts of conclusions that may or may not have anything in common with the person's actual character.

We are addicted to conflict and to hate.

Sports, in some ways, is an ideal example of this. I remember despising Peyton Mannings's "good old boy" routine when he played against the Pats. It really got under my skin. The same could be said of Aaron Rodgers' aloof Bohemian schtick or Tom Brady's practiced vanilla political-speak. In a way I guess I hated Peyton Manning's whiteness.

But I love Matthew McConnaghey, who similarly spews drawling anecdotes and hawks products in commercials. But McConnaghey wasn't wearing Colts or Broncos colors.

When a person is on the opposite side of the fence it is easy to hate everything about them. You want to assume the worst because that makes you and your side more righteous, more worthy.

A Celtics fan can look at Draymond Green and see an "aggressive black man," and, an instant later, see Marcus Smart's antics as "tough, old-school dirt-dog basketball." The uniforms write the narrative. The Warriors were standing between us and a championship, so of course they must be bad. To an opposing player, the vitriol of the fans might come across as racist. And race does play a role in it, as it does in everything. Draymond Green is black. It's part of who he is. In the frenzy of a championship series the Celtics fans are going to hate Draymond, and, maybe subconsciously, hate his blackness as well, because it is a part of the person tormenting us. I don't think it is intentional, but maybe that adds a little extra dollop of malice onto the proverbial cake.

Race has been embedded in American identity from the beginning, and its political significance has only intensified since the Civil War. And sports are like a daily Civil War. Boston is the city of Tom Yawkey, of the 70's bussing policy, of the Bird/McHale/Ainge Celtics vs the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers. Basketball players, media, and fans have many preconceived ideas about who is on what side. Some of it might be fair, some is not.

One thing I know is that, had LeBron played on the Celtics, he would have loved it here. But instead he was on the other side, and the Celtics were the team that knocked him out of the playoffs twice and catalyzed his flight to Miami. Despite the two titles he won, his career took a hit with that move, to the point where he felt obligated to return to Cleveland to prove he could win there. I don't think he's ever forgiven the Celtics for that.

And I think that played into the flippancy of his comments, which is a shame. Because while race is inherently imbedded into everything, sports is, at its heart, supposed to be fun. Hatred and all. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed - aka slinging beer and racial slurs - but if LeBron's problems are that white Celtics fans are wearing "F-LBJ" shirts and are chanting against Draymond then maybe he needs to take a step back, look in the mirror, and lighten up.

Very thoughtful and well written. More of this on the forum please.

[celticsclay]

I guess by saying that , he thinks Boston fans will cheer for him next visit to garden . I wouldn’t hold my breath . 

IMO he probably has fanned the flames .

I thoroughly doubt he thinks that. If anything, I'm sure he'll expect the crowd to be more hostile and then some dummy in the crowd will take it too far, proving his point. Just like Kyrie and the kid throwing the water bottle.

I think it kind of discredits the experiences of smart, Lebron, Adam jones, sabathia and others to lump kyries actions and interactions with them. If you are flipping off fans repeatedly and trying to antagonize them by fake crying and stomping on their logo and calling them racist before the game, that is going to be a very different experience than the average person playing basketball or doing their job in any part of the world. If when I lived in Oakland I went to one of the majority areas where I would be a minority and start flipping people off I would certainly be called very derogatory terms (and also beaten up), but it doesn’t really have anything to do with whether those people are racist or not.

[tenn_smoothie]

This country has become obsessed with race.
You are your race first and then whoever you are as a person second.
This obsession has just made things worse.

Yes, there is a certain percentage of people who are racist - who judge someone's character based on their race and that alone, when I believe we should be judged on our behavior and the values we hold as important.  There are plenty of people within each racial group who exhibit bad behavior and whose values are atrocious. There are plenty of people on all sides who are racist as well. The double standards that go unchallenged are also part of the problem. People who do speak up face all types of negative consequences.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

This country has become obsessed with race.
You are your race first and then whoever you are as a person second.
This obsession has just made things worse.

Yes, there is a certain percentage of people who are racist - who judge someone's character based on their race and that alone, when I believe we should be judged on our behavior and the values we hold as important.  There are plenty of people within each racial group who exhibit bad behavior and whose values are atrocious. There are plenty of people on all sides who are racist as well. The double standards that go unchallenged are also part of the problem. People who do speak up face all types of negative consequences.

Speak up for what, exactly? The shut up and dribble take?

[gouki88]

This country has become obsessed with race.
You are your race first and then whoever you are as a person second.
This obsession has just made things worse.

Yes, there is a certain percentage of people who are racist - who judge someone's character based on their race and that alone, when I believe we should be judged on our behavior and the values we hold as important.  There are plenty of people within each racial group who exhibit bad behavior and whose values are atrocious. There are plenty of people on all sides who are racist as well. The double standards that go unchallenged are also part of the problem. People who do speak up face all types of negative consequences.

Since inception, right?

[Kernewek]

My main issue is that LeBron spoke so flippantly and doesn't really have anything insightful or interesting to say about this topic.

Of course there are racists in Boston. Of course there are racial undertones in sports. There are racial undertones in everything in America. We are constantly looking for enemies within. You see a Biden or a Trump banner in someone's yard and the mind jumps to all sorts of conclusions that may or may not have anything in common with the person's actual character.

We are addicted to conflict and to hate.

Sports, in some ways, is an ideal example of this. I remember despising Peyton Mannings's "good old boy" routine when he played against the Pats. It really got under my skin. The same could be said of Aaron Rodgers' aloof Bohemian schtick or Tom Brady's practiced vanilla political-speak. In a way I guess I hated Peyton Manning's whiteness.

But I love Matthew McConnaghey, who similarly spews drawling anecdotes and hawks products in commercials. But McConnaghey wasn't wearing Colts or Broncos colors.

When a person is on the opposite side of the fence it is easy to hate everything about them. You want to assume the worst because that makes you and your side more righteous, more worthy.

A Celtics fan can look at Draymond Green and see an "aggressive black man," and, an instant later, see Marcus Smart's antics as "tough, old-school dirt-dog basketball." The uniforms write the narrative. The Warriors were standing between us and a championship, so of course they must be bad. To an opposing player, the vitriol of the fans might come across as racist. And race does play a role in it, as it does in everything. Draymond Green is black. It's part of who he is. In the frenzy of a championship series the Celtics fans are going to hate Draymond, and, maybe subconsciously, hate his blackness as well, because it is a part of the person tormenting us. I don't think it is intentional, but maybe that adds a little extra dollop of malice onto the proverbial cake.

Race has been embedded in American identity from the beginning, and its political significance has only intensified since the Civil War. And sports are like a daily Civil War. Boston is the city of Tom Yawkey, of the 70's bussing policy, of the Bird/McHale/Ainge Celtics vs the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers. Basketball players, media, and fans have many preconceived ideas about who is on what side. Some of it might be fair, some is not.

One thing I know is that, had LeBron played on the Celtics, he would have loved it here. But instead he was on the other side, and the Celtics were the team that knocked him out of the playoffs twice and catalyzed his flight to Miami. Despite the two titles he won, his career took a hit with that move, to the point where he felt obligated to return to Cleveland to prove he could win there. I don't think he's ever forgiven the Celtics for that.

And I think that played into the flippancy of his comments, which is a shame. Because while race is inherently imbedded into everything, sports is, at its heart, supposed to be fun. Hatred and all. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed - aka slinging beer and racial slurs - but if LeBron's problems are that white Celtics fans are wearing "F-LBJ" shirts and are chanting against Draymond then maybe he needs to take a step back, look in the mirror, and lighten up.

Very thoughtful and well written. More of this on the forum please.

Sure, if we ignore the inconvenient reality that the of a '"tough, old-school dirt-dog basketball" player, who doesn't face racist racist abuse from Boston fans because he plays for Boston in this thought experiment... literally faced racist abuse from a Boston fan in real life?

It's a cute few paragraphs on how sports fandom might be in a slightly better world. It's not that indicative of how the world of fandom is, unless we think Marcus et al are lying?

[pokeKingCurtis]

As always with these things, it depends on how you structure the question. And how much you drift from the original point. However.

Your source has Boston, the city, much higher than those other spaces  (save NY) in this list:
https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-cities


But why even zig this way when there's the obvious one here:
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/31/sport/lebron-james-racist-graffiti-incident/index.html

Clearly Los Angeles is more racist than Boston. There we go. We've solved it. We've solved the 'who is most racist' game. Go away LeBron James, you big hypocrite you.  Shut up and dribble. Never speak again about anything, unless it is about how the Lakers suck and the Celtics are great.

Otherwise, I think MSFC has it nailed:

I’m not saying Boston is worse than other places. I’m saying that I believe these black players when they’ve faced overt racism, as I’ve also witnessed it. If you want to dissect his comment to try to poke holes (the most racist? Worse than Birmingham Alabama?), go for it.

I’m not offended by his comments, and those that have experienced racist acts first hand shouldn’t try to be defensive. I’ve def gone to ushers before to get drunk fans booted. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. It doesn’t make sense to confront a drunk stranger, so I’m guessing this stuff will continue as people are nervous about retaliation.

If you want LeBron's receipts, that's fine. There's a big difference between that and the rest of my 'bingo card', which has already been discussed.

But. If we want to be conspiratorial about it, my favorite explanation is leftover rage from the "LeBron went south but his mom went West" shirts from back in the day, except he can't just say that.

Could you envision LeBron saying the same thing about any other city or region?

For instance, would LeBron ever say "Florida is racist AF." Or "Texas is racist AF."

I don't think he would. And the reason he wouldn't has nothing to do with how racist he thinks those areas might be.

Maybe not. Maybe it’s a bit of Republicans Buy Shoes Too calculus. We’ll never know what’s in his heart of hearts.

What we do know is that LeBron saying “[Celtics] fans are racist af” is not a particularly unique sentiment among players or other black folks that have to interact with the Celtics fanbase.

This doesn’t mean all Celtics fans are inherently racist - most of the posters on this board, I would venture to say, are not - and while you can take issue with the throwaway nature of the comment, I’m not sure applying ulterior motives to what he’s said to try and neutralise the gist of the point is particularly worthwhile.


(If anything, we would expect racism from Texas and Florida to be less surprising and therefore less worthy of discussion, no? Do we need an itemised catalog of every place any athlete has ever been where they’ve seen racism alongside a score of the severity so we can categorically say one place is more or less racist than another?)

Clearly Lebron wasn't talking about Boston the city or even most fans.  When he says the reason he hates Boston (i.e. playing there) is because they are racist as f..., he is talking about a few people that have spoiled it for the rest of us.  The other guys on the episode of the Shop didn't really follow up (probably because they too believe Boston has had some racial problems) and steered the discussion elsewhere so he didn't expand on the specific situations he faced to lead him to say that.  Anyone that thinks Lebron was talking about every single Celtics fan clearly needs to look in the mirror.

This horse is probably already beaten to death in this thread. But it's so frustrating and awful because as others have put it so well, he's been so flippant about it, and he's making throwaway comments. I just feel like LeBron doesn't have the best history of being nuanced or careful or even thoughtful in what he says or does. Lebron tweeting "you're next" at the cop involved in the Ma’khia Bryant shooting and later having to retract it, or fake coughing in the finals against Nowitzki.

I mean in this case Lebron using "f--- lebron" t-shirts and having beer thrown at him. The latter is not nice and actually questionable, the former is just fans being fans. Kind of takes away from the real issue at hand, you know the ones Marcus actually experienced.

Is leBron some new race I don't know about?

^Exactly this

I'm happy about the response from Jaylen though, it's what I'd hope/expect from someone claiming to be the face of the NBA - hope he's a Celtic-lifer.