GOAT: Jordan or James?

[Moranis]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

[Who]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Not to detract from the general conversation but I think Pip's Portland teams lost in the first round every year every year except for that one season when they went to the WCF game 7 against LAL. And his Rockets team lost in the first round as well.

So 4 or 5 years in the playoffs without MJ and Pip only got past the 1st round once. They did win 2 playoff series that 1 year though.

[Moranis]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Not to detract from the general conversation but I think Pip's Portland teams lost in the first round every year every year except for that one season when they went to the WCF game 7 against LAL. And his Rockets team lost in the first round as well.

So 4 or 5 years in the playoffs without MJ and Pip only got past the 1st round once. They did win 2 playoff series that 1 year though.

He won a playoff series in 94 with the Bulls without Jordan.  50 win team and swept the Cavs before losing to the Knicks in 7 (that was the famous game in which Pippen has since flat out called Phil racist for going to the rookie Kukoc).  In 95, Jordan came back towards the end of the year, so that year didn't count, though is often overlooked by Jordan fans when discussing his greatness and winning 6 in a row, despite Jordan and Pippen losing to Shaq's Magic in 6 games in the 2nd round in 95. 

So 3 playoff series wins without Jordan which equals several in my mind.

[Who]

Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Not to detract from the general conversation but I think Pip's Portland teams lost in the first round every year every year except for that one season when they went to the WCF game 7 against LAL. And his Rockets team lost in the first round as well.

So 4 or 5 years in the playoffs without MJ and Pip only got past the 1st round once. They did win 2 playoff series that 1 year though.

He won a playoff series in 94 with the Bulls without Jordan.  50 win team and swept the Cavs before losing to the Knicks in 7 (that was the famous game in which Pippen has since flat out called Phil racist for going to the rookie Kukoc).  In 95, Jordan came back towards the end of the year, so that year didn't count, though is often overlooked by Jordan fans when discussing his greatness and winning 6 in a row, despite Jordan and Pippen losing to Shaq's Magic in 6 games in the 2nd round in 95. 

So 3 playoff series wins without Jordan which equals several in my mind.

Ah yes! I forgot 1994. My mistake.


Edit: Oh that is bad. I was even watching some of those 1994 playoff games against the Knicks two months ago. I watched like 4 of the 7. The rest are gone now. Youtube has had a purge in the last few days of old NBA games.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Great post Moranis. I think the debate will be close. Shorter and taller peak vs incredible 20+ year career. I think I’m the end, we should feel fortunate that we got to watch both of these incredible athletes perform.

[GreenlyGreeny]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

You don’t remember how our seasons ended in 2011, 2012, 2015, 2017, and 2018? That’s half the decade.

There’s two kinds of basketball fans: People who watched MJ play in real-time during the most brutal defensive era in league history, and then there’s people who say LeBron is better…

Do I think more highly of LeBron as a person than MJ? You betcha. Other than his hypocrisy over Communist China (and, of course, choosing to become a Laker 🤢), he’s a good dude by all accounts. But can’t stand the player. Too many [dang] seasons ended for us because of that guy. If not for his shenanigans with Pat Riley, our Big 3 wins at least a second, if not third, title.

[GreenlyGreeny]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

Jordan to this day is a heavy gambler, but that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball so it has nothing to do with this discussion.  PED's does have an effect on how a person's career plays out, so it does weigh in to the discussion at least some what.

I personally don't care if basketball players use steroids.  It doesn't affect my viewing at all (combat sports are different, there injury risk to yourself and others is much greater).

Roy brought up the multi season gap in MJs resume, and I always thought it was fishy. My belief, which hasn’t been confirmed or denied by an uninterested party (why would Stern admit to a cover up). Why did MJ quit for years? To play substandard minor league baseball? I don’t know man….

I think it’s safe to say that most anybody whose dad was murdered was a bit messed up for a couple years after that, if not for life. MJ’s dad probably held high hopes of MJ becoming a professional baseball player, not a professional basketball player. That’s what I always figured was the situation there.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Can someone explain the Lebron vitriol? I honestly don’t get it.

You don’t remember how our seasons ended in 2011, 2012, 2015, 2017, and 2018? That’s half the decade.

There’s two kinds of basketball fans: People who watched MJ play in real-time during the most brutal defensive era in league history, and then there’s people who say LeBron is better…

Do I think more highly of LeBron as a person than MJ? You betcha. Other than his hypocrisy over Communist China (and, of course, choosing to become a Laker 🤢), he’s a good dude by all accounts. But can’t stand the player. Too many [dang] seasons ended for us because of that guy. If not for his shenanigans with Pat Riley, our Big 3 wins at least a second, if not third, title.

I agree that the defensive rules were more lax. I also think that Lebron faced stiffer competition. Moranis broke this down in a post to show the different NBA champions. In my opinion, the Sonics/Jazz/Suns of the 90s wouldn’t make it as far in the 2000s. Different era, less athleticism, etc, etc. It’s why it makes comparing these two players (of different sizes and positions) challenging. I guess they both played basketball and wore Nikes. I liked MJs shoes more than Lebron’s.

Also, I liked both players and thought MJs peak was higher. I guess I don’t fit into your theory of two kinds of basketball fans? Hmmm super interesting we’re calling out Lebron for being overly simplistic and inaccurate about his Boston racism comments then using simplistic, inaccurate ways to measure basketball fans.

The Lebron haters have been calling him hypocritical then exercising hypocrisy. I guess that’s ok because we all are hypocritical in some ways. It’s just good to look in the mirror once in a while.

[celticsclay]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

Jordan to this day is a heavy gambler, but that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball so it has nothing to do with this discussion.  PED's does have an effect on how a person's career plays out, so it does weigh in to the discussion at least some what.

I personally don't care if basketball players use steroids.  It doesn't affect my viewing at all (combat sports are different, there injury risk to yourself and others is much greater).

Roy brought up the multi season gap in MJs resume, and I always thought it was fishy. My belief, which hasn’t been confirmed or denied by an uninterested party (why would Stern admit to a cover up). Why did MJ quit for years? To play substandard minor league baseball? I don’t know man….

I think it’s safe to say that most anybody whose dad was murdered was a bit messed up for a couple years after that, if not for life. MJ’s dad probably held high hopes of MJ becoming a professional baseball player, not a professional basketball player. That’s what I always figured was the situation there.

Thank you. I’ve said this throughout the thread. It’s kind of a crappy thing to push this weird gambling narrative when there isn’t a shred of actual evidence (even after 30 years) rather than the actual very sad and logical reality of him dealing with the murder of his father who he seemed to be quite close with. You are also correct that his dad always wanted him to try baseball

https://www.sportscasting.com/michael-jordan-abandoned-basketball-baseball-grapple-tragic-death-father/

This is one of those let’s try to be better people on the Internet moments. Can like Lebron or think Lebron is the goat without pushing stuff like the gambling conspiracy.

[celticsclay]

I was never a Jordan fan, I don't like anyone who never played on the Celtics, but I respect him as a player.   I acknowledge LeBron is a great player.    But Jordan's record in the finals alone is enough to take the floor out of the LeBron crowd.  LeBron has a losing record in the finals of 3-6.  Jordan never lost one.

LeBron supporters will bring up that he was on worse teams but James did not have to face the more physical defense that Jordan did.    If a team played LeBron like Detriot did with the Jordan rules, he up and quit and wilt under the pressure and whine, whine, whine.  He has quit under less pressure.   The thing is he could physically own those guys but the body of a lion with the heart of a lamb won't cut it.

If LeBron is so much better than Michael why does he try to emulate him so much.    Space Jam, etc. 

The best thing is watching his window to catch Jordan close, as Father Time slams the window of opportunity for LeBron as he does all men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh-PaUwscQw

It is now the age of Morant, Tatum and Luka, time as I see it.  Steph still has it.  Durant and Jordan are still great but are looking mortal.

Lebron is 4-6 in Finals, not 3-6.  Yes Jordan was 6-0, but he only made 6 Finals.  And for the record, this is the 3rd best player on every team Jordan beat in the Finals

LA - Byron Scott (or a 2nd year 22 year old Divac or Sam Perkins - doesn't really matter for this discussion)
Por - Jerome Kersey
Pho - Dan Majerle
Sea - Detlef Schrempf
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell
Uta - Jeff Hornacek or Byron Russell

Detlef and Majerle each had 3 all star games in their career and Hornacek had 1 (his was years earlier).  7 total all star games, no HOFers (Vlade would add 1 all star game and the HOF, though that is more for international than NBA). 


Now how about the 3rd best player on all 10 of those Finals teams, Lebron faced

SA - Manu Ginobili (and Michael Finley was 4th)
Dal - Shawn Marion or the following season's DPOY Tyson Chandler depending on your preference
OKC - James Harden
SA - Kawhi Leonard and Manu Ginobili was 4th best
SA - still Kawhi and Manu as 3 and 4
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Draymond Green
GS - Klay Thompson
GS - Klay Thompson
Mia - Tyler Herro

So all HOF's except for Herro and Marion (and Marion had 4 all star games and 2 all league).  I'm fairly confident Lebron's 07 Cavs team would have beaten the Portland and Utah teams that Jordan played in the Finals and that team was obviously and by a wide margin, Lebron's worst finals team.  Heck, outside of Lebron that might have been a 15 win team.

The 90's was watered down crap for most of it.  The teams just weren't very good.  The mass expansion, plus guys from the 80's deteriorating quicker than normal (Magic for HIV, Bird's back, and Thomas who knows why), led to the 2nd weakest overall decade in the league's history (70's were worse mostly because of the ABA and then expansion).  Hakeem's team in 94 is probably the weakest championship team in history.  I mean you take Hakeem off that team and they might actually be worse than the 07 Cavs without Lebron.  And they played the Knicks, who if you actually look at the roster, you wonder how they made the Finals (Ewing, Oakley, Starks = gross).

Let's not forget that Jordan didn't win a single playoff game against the Celtics (0-6).  In fact, before Pippen the Bulls were 1-9 in the playoffs.  Pippen's rookie season they made the 2nd round losing in 5 to the Pistons.  They then made the ECF the next 2 years losing to the Pistons each time, before finally getting by them in 91 after the Pistons had aged a bit (1st round loss the next year, then out of the playoffs entirely the year after).  Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen on his team (which of course is not true of Pippen who won several playoff series without Jordan). 

Jordan is the 2nd best scorer in league history (behind Wilt) and is also the best wing defender (among all time greats) in league history.  His will to win is basically unmatched, but he was also gifted a top 5 player to his team (thank the Sonics for that one), only won with a top 3 coach of all time, and hit his prime in an incredibly weak league.  He came around at exactly the right time for someone of his skill set to sell a whole bunch of shoes, which furthered his legend, but a lot of that is legend.  He is widely regarded as a terrible teammate.  A guy that would get into actual fights with his own team.  He quit on his team not once, but twice (so I don't want to hear that as a critique of James, without also acknowledging it as a critique of Jordan). 

Jordan ended up playing "15" seasons.  I put it in "" because two of those seasons he played respectively just 18 and 17 games.  He made the 1st Team All NBA 10 times (1 2nd team) along with 9 1st Team All Defense.  He has the 5 MVP's and 1 DPOY.  Incredible stuff and he is still 5th all time in points scored and will be for at least several more seasons (Durant in the closest guy with a real shot at passing him, but he is like 7k behind him).  Absolutely incredible career and skill set.

All that said, when looking for a G.O.A.T., I'm taking the guy that played longer, with a longer peak, that proved he could win with any set of teammates, and any coach.  I mean we obviously can see now that Spo is a great coach, but when Lebron got to Miami, he was a 40 year old 3rd year coach that had never won a playoff series.  The Cleveland title, Lue was a 38 year old who had never been a head coach before and who took over mid-season and yet the Cavs beat the greatest regular season team in league history to win the title.  That 4th title in LA came with Vogel who isn't exactly a world beater of a coach.  He also dragged Mike Brown to the Finals.  Until 2 seasons ago, when AD got hurt, Lebron had never lost a 1st round playoff series and those teams in Cleveland (the 1st time) were all terrible.  Lebron will end up as the all time leading scorer, he will probably finish 4th in assists, probably in the top 30 for rebounds, probably top 8 in steals, and around top 75 in blocks.  He is in the top 5 for most of the advanced metrics and many he is 1 or 2 (with Jordan or Kareem).  He has 13 1st Team All NBA (3 2nd teams, 1 3rd team) and did end up on 5 1st Team All Defense (1 2nd Team).  He received MVP votes in 19 of his 20 seasons finishing in the top 5, 14 times (Jordan had 10 top 5 finishes). 

For many of the same reasons, I have James ahead of Jordan, I have Kareem at 2 ahead of Jordan who I have 3.  I have James ahead of Kareem in large part because Kareem had Magic for so many years and Magic was clearly better than him for a handful of those years.  Plus, Kareem ended up missing the playoffs twice in the heart of his career i.e. as a 27 year old reigning MVP missing the playoffs in Milwaukee with a fellow 27 year old HOFer Bob Dandridge on the team, demanding a trade, and then missing the playoffs with a championship winning coach (Sharman) in his first year in LA.  The Lakers also just weren't very good until Magic stepped on the floor and that was in the 70's when the league was at its weakest point.  Kareem seemed to have a bit of that Wilt in him, and it took Magic coming along for him to sacrifice.  If you are winning, you can be a bit more selfish, but if you aren't, you have to adjust, and Kareem just never did that in his prime, and his teams by and large weren't as good as they should have been (that is one of the complaints I have about KG, but that is a different topic for a different day).

Whoa, no mention that lebrons 3rd best teammate in Miami was Chris both? How does he compare to Horace grant? You call the 90’s week but no mention of how terrible the east was for a lot of lebrons finals runs? How did he get past the gauntlet of al Horford and Paul milsap? Whoa he beat Lowry and demar derozen? Nobody is shocked, but what a hilariously biased dissertation you put together here lol.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

Jordan to this day is a heavy gambler, but that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball so it has nothing to do with this discussion.  PED's does have an effect on how a person's career plays out, so it does weigh in to the discussion at least some what.

I personally don't care if basketball players use steroids.  It doesn't affect my viewing at all (combat sports are different, there injury risk to yourself and others is much greater).

Roy brought up the multi season gap in MJs resume, and I always thought it was fishy. My belief, which hasn’t been confirmed or denied by an uninterested party (why would Stern admit to a cover up). Why did MJ quit for years? To play substandard minor league baseball? I don’t know man….

I think it’s safe to say that most anybody whose dad was murdered was a bit messed up for a couple years after that, if not for life. MJ’s dad probably held high hopes of MJ becoming a professional baseball player, not a professional basketball player. That’s what I always figured was the situation there.

Thank you. I’ve said this throughout the thread. It’s kind of a crappy thing to push this weird gambling narrative when there isn’t a shred of actual evidence (even after 30 years) rather than the actual very sad and logical reality of him dealing with the murder of his father who he seemed to be quite close with. You are also correct that his dad always wanted him to try baseball

https://www.sportscasting.com/michael-jordan-abandoned-basketball-baseball-grapple-tragic-death-father/

This is one of those let’s try to be better people on the Internet moments. Can like Lebron or think Lebron is the goat without pushing stuff like the gambling conspiracy.

First, I apologize if I offended you. This was not my intention. I'm not on here to upset people.

Secondly, Moranis pointed out the following quote, but no one wanted to engage with it? Why?


At the press conference when he was asked if he would ever return he said, " Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back."

[Roy H.]

At the press conference when he was asked if he would ever return he said, " Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back."

Sam Smith talked about this in one of his books, I think.  It was a shot at Stern.

Watch MJ's press conference sometime.  He's extremely irritated with the media, and mentions it multiple times.  He's irritated because they'd been raising a stink about his personal life, both the death of his dad and his gambling with shady dudes.  And, he's mad at Stern, because to appease that media, Stern authorized an "investigation".  There wasn't a real investigation, it was largely for show.  But, MJ didn't like it, and felt like Stern should have defended him or ignored the issue, rather than telling the media they were looking into the issue.

So, the faux investigation is still pending when he gives his press conference.  And MJ decided to take a shot at Stern.  Like, "I'm the best player in the world, and maybe I'll come back some day, assuming that bullcrap "gambling investigation" hasn't resulted in me being suspended for life".

In other words, it was sarcasm.

[Donoghus]

At the press conference when he was asked if he would ever return he said, " Five years down the road, if the urge comes back, if the Bulls will have me, if David Stern lets me back in the league, I may come back."

Sam Smith talked about this in one of his books, I think.  It was a shot at Stern.

Watch MJ's press conference sometime.  He's extremely irritated with the media, and mentions it multiple times.  He's irritated because they'd been raising a stink about his personal life, both the death of his dad and his gambling with shady dudes.  And, he's mad at Stern, because to appease that media, Stern authorized an "investigation".  There wasn't a real investigation, it was largely for show.  But, MJ didn't like it, and felt like Stern should have defended him or ignored the issue, rather than telling the media they were looking into the issue.

So, the faux investigation is still pending when he gives his press conference.  And MJ decided to take a shot at Stern.  Like, "I'm the best player in the world, and maybe I'll come back some day, assuming that bullcrap "gambling investigation" hasn't resulted in me being suspended for life".

In other words, it was sarcasm.

Yeah, it was a total tongue in cheek. 

Stern & MJ went hand & hand in the 90s. Stern used Jordan to grow the sport and globalize the game.  Jordan knew his importance there and it was a sarcastic jab.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

So the NBA investigated MJ for gambling and the company that he kept. Do people want to argue that this investigation occurred?

I don't think that Lebron has been investigated for hanging out and gambling with shady people. I know there are people on this site that have Lebron's worst moments ready to go. Is there anything that he's done that would initiate a league investigation?

[Roy H.]

So the NBA investigated MJ for gambling and the company that he kept. Do people want to argue that this investigation occurred?

I don't think that Lebron has been investigated for hanging out and gambling with shady people. I know there are people on this site that have Lebron's worst moments ready to go. Is there anything that he's done that would initiate a league investigation?

Unlike Stern, Silver knows not to insult the golden goose with an "investigation".