GOAT: Jordan or James?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

Jordan to this day is a heavy gambler, but that has absolutely nothing to do with basketball so it has nothing to do with this discussion.  PED's does have an effect on how a person's career plays out, so it does weigh in to the discussion at least some what.

I personally don't care if basketball players use steroids.  It doesn't affect my viewing at all (combat sports are different, there injury risk to yourself and others is much greater).

Roy brought up the multi season gap in MJs resume, and I always thought it was fishy. My belief, which hasn’t been confirmed or denied by an uninterested party (why would Stern admit to a cover up). Why did MJ quit for years? To play substandard minor league baseball? I don’t know man….

[Moranis]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.

Didn't Jordan in his retirement presser say something to the effect that he may be back in 5 years if Stern lets him?

[celticsclay]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.

I didn’t realize people took this seriously. Like at all. Can someone walk me through this logically what exactly is the gambling conspiracy in a way that would make any sense?

 If Jordan was gambling on basketball games there is no way in heck he is just told to stay away for 1.5 years. Also why in the world would he bet basketball when it is known that he was playing millions of dollars betting on golfing against his friends, playing blackjack or roulette? He could do football or baseball or gymnastics, but instead wanted to fix games? He needed like the thrill of getting caught and losing all his income to feel alive? If anyone believes this part I don’t really know how much further the conversation can go cause it is completely illogical and he wild have never came back.

The other weird explanation is he was losing tons of money gambling and owed people money so stern forced him to retire and forfeit his massive salary so he had no way of paying people back? Was stern trying to get him killed? I am absolutely begging for someone to give me a logical explanation for a way it would make sense for jordan to be forced to play baseball because of gambling. (And yes I know some of this is just Lebron fans doing more nonsense like with the steroids earlier in the thread).

[celticsclay]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.

Didn't Jordan in his retirement presser say something to the effect that he may be back in 5 years if Stern lets him?

Jordan was pretty upset there were people of such little character/intelligence they were turning the tragic death of his father into a conspiracy theory that had no logical basis. Frankly I am surprised he didn’t completely lose it on a media member. Imagine if Durant’s mom died and random jackals on the Internet started saying it was cause Durant gambled or had a drug problem?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

From what I remember, MJ had gambling problems and stern was concerned about the image of the league being negatively affected.

This is the conspiracy part: MJ failed to pay a debt and his father was killed. I have no evidence to back this up. I remember a buzz about this, but can’t confirm or deny.

I’m not anti MJ. I preferred him to Lebron.

Edit: I just read this: https://www.nytimes.com/article/james-jordan-death.html

It seems like MJs involvement in his fathers death is inaccurate. It does say that the NBA was concerned about MJs gambling.

[celticsclay]

From what I remember, MJ had gambling problems and stern was concerned about the image of the league being negatively affected.

This is the conspiracy part: MJ failed to pay a debt and his father was killed. I have no evidence to back this up. I remember a buzz about this, but can’t confirm or deny.

I’m not anti MJ. I preferred him to Lebron.

Edit: I just read this: https://www.nytimes.com/article/james-jordan-death.html

It seems like MJs involvement in his fathers death is inaccurate. It does say that the NBA was concerned about MJs gambling.

Yes, but there has been no logical explanation provided for how this would benefit the league? Or Jordan? If Jordan owes tons of people money taking away his 30 million salary a year helps him repay these debts how? It helps the league how? Wouldn't this just make it like 100x more likely the scandal would blow up in both their faces?

A few more points on this theory too: " the NBA doesn’t operate through cloak-and-dagger compacts or by way of winks and nods. From Stern to Adam Silver, along with their top advisors, the league is run mainly by a group of highly skilled attorneys. If nothing else, attorneys tend to care deeply about process, procedure and consistency. An unprecedented informal arrangement, particularly between the two most important people in the NBA at the time (Jordan and Stern), would have sharply belied how attorneys normally operate.

Also NBA owners, through the Board of Governors, unanimously approved Jordan as principal owner of the Charlotte Hornets (then called the Bobcats) in 2010. Four years earlier, Jordan—who in 2005 admitted to 60 Minutes’ Ed Bradley that he was at times reckless with gambling—was also approved to purchase a minority stake in the franchise when it was owned by Robert Johnson. Prospective franchise owners go through substantial review of their financial, personal and business dealings before they are approved. If the league had meaningful worries about Jordan’s gambling, it would have dissuaded him from pursuing ownership of a team. The opposite occurred: the NBA welcomed Jordan with open arms."

Also if you step back from this and realize people are believing in this crazy conspiracy theory over the extremely logical and normal explanation that he was burnt our after his father died in a horrible way, that really seems to me like a pretty crappy way to view things. Do people that believe the gambling conspiracy believe the moment of him just sobbing in the room by himself with the trophy released in the last dance was purposely acted by Jordan to pretend he was upset and really struggling after the murder of his father? Or maybe they believe he was just upset because he had made a massive bet on the Utah Jazz. 

[celticsclay]

An interesting question this whole debate also raises is why does this particular goat debate invite such unsavory behavior into the conversation. I never see Joe Montana fans suggesting Brady was doing steroids or vice versa with zero evidence (and Brady has a bigger difference in his body now compared to his rookie year than MJ did). I don't see Bobby Orr fans inventing and sharing wild theories about Gretzky cheating or gambling. I so those debates in other sports rely a lot more on discussing rule changes (passing stats in eras for Brady/Montana) changes in the style of game (baseball debates with the dead ball era, pre-integration etc). It is kind of disappointing instead of having a discussion about whether Lebron's additional finals trips should outweigh MJ's perfect record or his longevity is more important than MJ's peaks it is completely unfounded claims of MJ using steroids or being kicked out of the league based on a conspiracy theory with no evidence.

[Birdman]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar is my all time #1 pick thou I hate the lakers..

Larry Bird #2- Jordan never beat him in playoffs & back injury did slow him down

Michael Jordan #3

Magic Johnson #4

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Brady hasn’t been criticized? Come on man. People care about his political beliefs and wanted him to be suspended for a year for an equipment violation.

I’m not sure if Orr or Gretzky had shady behaviors. I do think reckless gambling is shady, and I think The Great One’s son in law DJ is a putz.

I think Lebron is a stand up guy.

[celticsclay]

Brady hasn’t been criticized? Come on man. People care about his political beliefs and wanted him to be suspended for a year for an equipment violation.

I’m not sure if Orr or Gretzky had shady behaviors. I do think reckless gambling is shady, and I think The Great One’s son in law DJ is a putz.

I think Lebron is a stand up guy.

This is not related to what I said at all. I said you don't see a bunch of Joe Montana fans specifically arguing for that. Obviously fans of rival teams talk crap about the best players in the league, especially while he is playing. This happens in every single sport as we have people talking crap about curry, durant, embid, lebron to varying degree. Do you want to respond to what I actually wrote?

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

1) Don’t be upsetti. Eat some spaghetti.

2) I think MJ>Lebron. This doesn’t work for your narrative.

3) Lebron gets hammered on this site. You’re getting offended when I bring up MJ’s flaws?

[Moranis]

Do these imaginary Joe Montana fans make unfounded allegations that Tom Brady uses ped's and that is why he is as good as he is?

And I call them imaginary because there isn't an honest debate as to who the greatest QB in history is. Anyone who thinks it isn't Brady can just be disregarded at this point.

I'm just asking for consistency. If you are going to accuse Lebron for susceptible reasons, just apply those same reasons to Jordan and you reach the same conclusion. 

As for the gambling, there are plenty of articles written about Jordan being forced out because of the gambling.  There is a reason that the at the time recently opened investigation into Jordan was suddenly dropped without finding a thing when Jordan retired, you know despite the fact that everyone knew Jordan had a big gambling problem.  The theory goes that te league was hoping that with Jordan not playing, he'd get his addiction under control and it wouldn't cause a real problem for the league.

Good summary here.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/michael-jordan-and-gambling-a-brief-history-of-basketballs-most-famous-bettor/#:~:text=When%20Jordan%20retired%20unexpectedly%20in%201993%2C%20many%20to,father%2C%20James%20Jordan%2C%20who%20was%20murdered%20in%201993.

I doubt he was suspended, but he clearly had (and probably still does) a gambling problem and that line in his retirement presserabout Stern letting him back in in 5 years is very strange.

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.

I didn’t realize people took this seriously. Like at all. Can someone walk me through this logically what exactly is the gambling conspiracy in a way that would make any sense?

 If Jordan was gambling on basketball games there is no way in heck he is just told to stay away for 1.5 years. Also why in the world would he bet basketball when it is known that he was playing millions of dollars betting on golfing against his friends, playing blackjack or roulette? He could do football or baseball or gymnastics, but instead wanted to fix games? He needed like the thrill of getting caught and losing all his income to feel alive? If anyone believes this part I don’t really know how much further the conversation can go cause it is completely illogical and he wild have never came back.

The other weird explanation is he was losing tons of money gambling and owed people money so stern forced him to retire and forfeit his massive salary so he had no way of paying people back? Was stern trying to get him killed? I am absolutely begging for someone to give me a logical explanation for a way it would make sense for jordan to be forced to play baseball because of gambling. (And yes I know some of this is just Lebron fans doing more nonsense like with the steroids earlier in the thread).

MJ was accused of not paying his debts. https://golf.com/news/michael-jordan-richard-esquinas-golf-gambling/?amp=1

Esquinas told the Union-Tribune the NBA’s subsequent investigation was a “sham” and that Jordan was unfair to lump him in with a crowd of people “that he shouldn’t have been around.” But what seems to still sting more than anything is the fact that Jordan didn’t pay up.

“For whatever reason, I think a lot of this is just the fact that he did not want the loss,” Esquinas told the Union-Tribune. “He didn’t want to give me a W. Maybe he was embarrassed. Writing me a check was an L to him … I don’t understand when a man won’t pay.”

Shady MJ

[celticsclay]

Do these imaginary Joe Montana fans make unfounded allegations that Tom Brady uses ped's and that is why he is as good as he is?

And I call them imaginary because there isn't an honest debate as to who the greatest QB in history is. Anyone who thinks it isn't Brady can just be disregarded at this point.

I'm just asking for consistency. If you are going to accuse Lebron for susceptible reasons, just apply those same reasons to Jordan and you reach the same conclusion. 

As for the gambling, there are plenty of articles written about Jordan being forced out because of the gambling.  There is a reason that the at the time recently opened investigation into Jordan was suddenly dropped without finding a thing when Jordan retired, you know despite the fact that everyone knew Jordan had a big gambling problem.  The theory goes that te league was hoping that with Jordan not playing, he'd get his addiction under control and it wouldn't cause a real problem for the league.

Good summary here.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/michael-jordan-and-gambling-a-brief-history-of-basketballs-most-famous-bettor/#:~:text=When%20Jordan%20retired%20unexpectedly%20in%201993%2C%20many%20to,father%2C%20James%20Jordan%2C%20who%20was%20murdered%20in%201993.

I doubt he was suspended, but he clearly had (and probably still does) a gambling problem and that line in his retirement presserabout Stern letting him back in in 5 years is very strange.

I went through the first 4 pages of this thread right now (skimming so it is possible I missed something) but it looked like there was one person making a throwaway comment about Lebron being on PEDs calling him Sammy sosa of basketball and then you came in with a very silly post about Jordan “of course being on roids” with evidence that was either inaccurate (saying he balded from it when he was clearly bald before) or lacking a fundamental understanding of body development (there have been at least a half dozen other examples discussed of people putting on 15 pounds in a 4 month period. Then you also got very into the gambling and him being suspended and have still refused to explain how a suspension would make any logical sense. So, yeah, I don’t see people doing the kind of stuff you are doing in the Montana Brady debate if you want to make it about you. I’ve also tried to get the conversation on a track a few times asking you to actual make arguments for Lebron rather than just focusing on degrading mj. (And just to be clear while I do think my is the goat, I’m far from a fan of him as a person).

[celticsclay]

I think Stern wanted MJ to go away for a bit bc of gambling. His dad getting killed was weird, and I think there’s a backstory there. It took 3 min in a batting cage to realize MJ wasn’t good enough to play in the minors.

Do I hold this against MJ? Nope. I’m also not going to give him credit for championships that he never played in.

It’s pretty easy to see why it devolved into a discussion about drugs with unfounded obscure conspiracy theories about jordan from the bowels of the Internet….

I’m sincere when I say that I thought it was well known that MJ had gambling issues. Is this unfounded? If so, I will take back my comment. I always thought his minor league baseball stint was a cover.

On the spectrum of conspiracies, I thought MJs gambling was closer to “OJ got away with murder” than Hillary is a “pizzagate pedophile”.

There's no doubt that MJ was a big gambler. 

I think the "MJ was unofficially suspended for gambling" is the conspiracy part.  Both Stern and MJ have denied it several times, but maybe that means nothing.  Moreso, I think the player's union and at least one owner would have make a stink about it if it were true.

I didn’t realize people took this seriously. Like at all. Can someone walk me through this logically what exactly is the gambling conspiracy in a way that would make any sense?

 If Jordan was gambling on basketball games there is no way in heck he is just told to stay away for 1.5 years. Also why in the world would he bet basketball when it is known that he was playing millions of dollars betting on golfing against his friends, playing blackjack or roulette? He could do football or baseball or gymnastics, but instead wanted to fix games? He needed like the thrill of getting caught and losing all his income to feel alive? If anyone believes this part I don’t really know how much further the conversation can go cause it is completely illogical and he wild have never came back.

The other weird explanation is he was losing tons of money gambling and owed people money so stern forced him to retire and forfeit his massive salary so he had no way of paying people back? Was stern trying to get him killed? I am absolutely begging for someone to give me a logical explanation for a way it would make sense for jordan to be forced to play baseball because of gambling. (And yes I know some of this is just Lebron fans doing more nonsense like with the steroids earlier in the thread).

MJ was accused of not paying his debts. https://golf.com/news/michael-jordan-richard-esquinas-golf-gambling/?amp=1

Esquinas told the Union-Tribune the NBA’s subsequent investigation was a “sham” and that Jordan was unfair to lump him in with a crowd of people “that he shouldn’t have been around.” But what seems to still sting more than anything is the fact that Jordan didn’t pay up.

“For whatever reason, I think a lot of this is just the fact that he did not want the loss,” Esquinas told the Union-Tribune. “He didn’t want to give me a W. Maybe he was embarrassed. Writing me a check was an L to him … I don’t understand when a man won’t pay.”

Shady MJ

Nobody is saying mj didn’t gamble. He gambled a lot. My question that I am giving up on you or anyone answering is how this would cause the nba to suspend him. You are sharing a story about him not paying a guy he golfed with and knew personally. What does this have to do with an nba suspension? I’ve written out about 10 reasons it doesn’t make any sense for the nba to suspend him and you are not responding to anything I am actually saying so I’ll just give up on the discussion with you.

Edit: I guess Moranis just proposed the most illogical theory to date. The “NBA” thought taking away his job and giving him more free time would somehow cause him to get an addictive trait under control all while taking away his income. Rich